Darwinism in schools?

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The creation story in Genesis places people there who are later referenced in the New Testament. The NT accepts them as historical characters and you may as well. The surroundings and how they got there is what presents a problem for you. Real people in a symbolic setting?
Genesis tells us that God created the universe. Studying the universe that God created tells us that the literal interpretation of Genesis is incorrect. Using God’s work to interpret God’s word seems to me to be legitimate. All that is required is that God is not deceptive in His work.

The Bible refers to fictional people. The prodigal son is fictional, likewise the good Samaritan. Fictional people can be used to make a real point. The importance of the stories lies with the real point, not with the fictional actors used to make it.

rossum
 
Genesis tells us that God created the universe. Studying the universe that God created tells us that the literal interpretation of Genesis is incorrect. Using God’s work to interpret God’s word seems to me to be legitimate. All that is required is that God is not deceptive in His work.

The Bible refers to fictional people. The prodigal son is fictional, likewise the good Samaritan. Fictional people can be used to make a real point. The importance of the stories lies with the real point, not with the fictional actors used to make it.

rossum
So the Genesis account of creation should have every ingredient that it does, just take out the proper names of the people.? Jesus words are "from the blood of Abel (who was fictional according to you) to Zacharias (maybe him too)…

Adam isn’t real? Then as in him (Adam) we don’t all die (1 Cor. 15:22)? Those are the basics of Christianity. Why apply a proper name at all?

The prodigal son and the good samaritan are parables. A parable can not be equated with texts that apply to lineage or the origin of sin. Sin came about by a real man, and the scriptures give his name as Adam. The scriptures don’t say that sin came about by any old man. Very wrong.
 
Define “kind.” I assume this is synonymous with “species.”

Define adaptation in distinction to evolution.

I know that you have been asked to define these terms, but I am really looking for a distinction between evolution and adaptation from you. What counts as evolution? The definition you provide must be able to be a metric I can apply to any living creature or plant.

That is not a reasonable form of proof. The experiment is reproducible; the results are not, nor does any evolutionist claim they should be. That is not how science works.

Let me give you a brief analogy. A coin flip is random, yes? You are asking someone to flip a coin and come up with heads over and over again. This is possible but unlikely, and no one would claim to be able to do that because we accept the concept of randomness.

If someone puts forward a theory of evolution that somehow involves randomness, it is irrational on your part to require as a burden of proof that randomness not exist. It is the same as someone claiming that a coin flip will come up heads or tails and you insisting that in order to prove this, they must flip heads over and over again. What you are requiring is not related to what they are arguing.

So, let me rephrase: Assume that evolution involves some level of randomness. What would be sufficient proof for you?

The theory of evolution does not state that a cat turning into a dog is possible. The theory of evolution is not fully predictable, just like a coin toss is not predictable. If you understand science at a basic level, this will not pose a problem for you, but if you are not very good with scientific concepts, I understand your intellectual limitations without judgment.

Could you give me an example involving animals? How would you define their purpose?

No part. They are clearly mutually exclusive, so Genesis and genesis cannot be taken literally. That is my only point.
A kind is not the same as species. Again, species is man’s attempt to classify.

Adaptation is variation within the kind, aka micro-evolution.

I know science works in a convenient way. If you cannot observe it, repeat it and predict it, we can do lots of storytelling. That is the essence of evolutionism.

An evolutionary claim is that whales evolved from land. List the morphological changes. Show me the actual evolutionary pathways.
 
So, tell me, when do we interpret the Bible literally, and when do we interpret in metaphorically?

You misquoted the link I gave. That was reprehensible, and I called you on it. “You shall not bear false witness”. Does that sound familiar?

rossum
That would be a great question if the Bible just fell out of the sky yesterday. However, we have the constant teaching and understanding of the Church to go by. The understanding of our forebearers should be respected.
 
There is nothing wrong with that. First, the writers of the OT did not meet Adam and Eve in person, which means that the level at which they can be said to be historical is debatable (i.e. are the names just placeholders for the prototypical humans, etc.?). Second, we have real people in symbolic settings all the time. Take George Washington and the cherry tree, or any other legend about anyone ever. Or the Trojan War heroes, for that matter.
The toledoth theory puts forth the first tablet was authored by God and the second Adam himself.
 
A kind is not the same as species. Again, species is man’s attempt to classify.
Define “kind.” I would like you to provide me with a definition that permits me to differentiate between different kinds with no ambiguity or question.
Adaptation is variation within the kind, aka micro-evolution.
See above.
I know science works in a convenient way. If you cannot observe it, repeat it and predict it, we can do lots of storytelling. That is the essence of evolutionism.
Evolution is not proscriptive, it is descriptive, at least, at the moment. Genetics involve randomness/probability, therefore describing it does as well.
An evolutionary claim is that whales evolved from land. List the morphological changes. Show me the actual evolutionary pathways.
A Google search for “whales land” was quite helpful.
 
Genesis tells us that God created the universe. Studying the universe that God created tells us that the literal interpretation of Genesis is incorrect. Using God’s work to interpret God’s word seems to me to be legitimate. All that is required is that God is not deceptive in His work.

The Bible refers to fictional people. The prodigal son is fictional, likewise the good Samaritan. Fictional people can be used to make a real point. The importance of the stories lies with the real point, not with the fictional actors used to make it.

rossum
I would like to rephrase that slightly.

Genesis tells us that God created the universe. Studying the universe that God created some human reasoning tells us that the literal interpretation of Genesis is incorrect.

God is not deceptive. Humans deceive themselves. In addition, God is under no obligation to share everything he knows to His creatures. What we are left with is a jigsaw puzzle of millions of pieces and we have a few hundred pieces. But God Revealed to us what the picture looks like, but we cannot see it all with only a few hundred pieces.

It is interesting how some will claim that somehow God removed science and real people from HISstory.
 
Define “kind.” I would like you to provide me with a definition that permits me to differentiate between different kinds with no ambiguity or question.

See above.

Evolution is not proscriptive, it is descriptive, at least, at the moment. Genetics involve randomness/probability, therefore describing it does as well.

A Google search for “whales land” was quite helpful.
Feline and canine would be an attempt at it.

RIght you are about evo not being prescriptive. Genetics is showing the DNA instructions to be prescriptive.

Lay it out - list the changes step by step. Then the pathways.

David Berlinski and Whale Evolution
 
Feline and canine would be an attempt at it.
No, give me a general definition. If you assert that there are kinds, you must know what they are. Provide a definition so that other people can engage with you.
RIght you are about evo not being prescriptive. Genetics is showing the DNA instructions to be prescriptive.
You misunderstand due to my lack of clarity. Evolutionary theory is not prescriptive, it is descriptive, at least at the moment. And it is difficult to predict outcomes that involve randomness.
Lay it out - list the changes step by step. Then the pathways.
I am not an expert on whale evolution, nor do I claim to be one. You are more than welcome to present a case as to why a particular theory is wrong.
 
Quite frankly I’m surprised Evolution is such a controversy here.

When I was in RCIA I was told evolution and Catholicism were compatible.

What’s changed? 🤷
 
No, give me a general definition. If you assert that there are kinds, you must know what they are. Provide a definition so that other people can engage with you.

You misunderstand due to my lack of clarity. Evolutionary theory is not prescriptive, it is descriptive, at least at the moment. And it is difficult to predict outcomes that involve randomness.

I am not an expert on whale evolution, nor do I claim to be one. You are more than welcome to present a case as to why a particular theory is wrong.
There are some people doing work on barimonology. Apparently even NCSEncse.com/rncse/26/4/baraminology is acknowledging their rigorous science. Even though they deny its validity.

That was the Berlinski Link - an atheist mathematician. He does a fine job.
 
That would be a great question if the Bible just fell out of the sky yesterday. However, we have the constant teaching and understanding of the Church to go by. The understanding of our forebearers should be respected.
But not always followed. We have briefly discussed the example of the Church’s attitude to slavery, which has changed since Roman times. The text has not changed, but the interpretation of the text has changed.

We now know a ot more about the universe than the Biblical authors – Genesis 1 does not mention any of the other planets for instance. It is not a science textbook, and does not have a place in modern science lessons.

rossum
 
So the Genesis account of creation should have every ingredient that it does, just take out the proper names of the people.? Jesus words are "from the blood of Abel (who was fictional according to you) to Zacharias (maybe him too)…
You are taking me far too literally. It is more than just the people that I was talking about. Why do you think that we cannot find a waterproof firmament, with windows? That too is not to be taken literally.
Adam isn’t real? Then as in him (Adam) we don’t all die (1 Cor. 15:22)? Those are the basics of Christianity. Why apply a proper name at all?
Because Jesus was wise, and taught the people around Him in terms they cound understand. How many would have followed Him if he had talked about quarks and Deoxyribonucleic acid? He talked in terms that the people then could understand. You are trying to limit science to what those people understood.

rossum
 
But not always followed. We have briefly discussed the example of the Church’s attitude to slavery, which has changed since Roman times. The text has not changed, but the interpretation of the text has changed.

We now know a ot more about the universe than the Biblical authors – Genesis 1 does not mention any of the other planets for instance. It is not a science textbook, and does not have a place in modern science lessons.

rossum
Did you by chance read the slavery links I provided?

I wonder how much Adam knew since he was infused with supernatural knowledge. But I tend to agree about knowledge being accumulated.
 
You are taking me far too literally. It is more than just the people that I was talking about. Why do you think that we cannot find a waterproof firmament, with windows? That too is not to be taken literally.

Because Jesus was wise, and taught the people around Him in terms they cound understand. How many would have followed Him if he had talked about quarks and Deoxyribonucleic acid? He talked in terms that the people then could understand. You are trying to limit science to what those people understood.

rossum
From the blood of Abel is a lineage description. One then could discount all lineages in the bible. That would put the geneology of Jesus in jeopardy which is the foundation of his messiah status. Names of actual people were used. When Jesus or the writers of synoptic gospels were telling a story it was framed as such, commonly known as a parable.
 
Buffalo, I am not interested in links to other sources, as reliable as they may be.

I am interested in precisely the answers to the questions I ask, which is why I ask them and would like them answered.

I asked the following several times:
No, give me a general definition. If you assert that there are kinds, you must know what they are. Provide a definition so that other people can engage with you.
Please provide a definition of “kind.” Specifically, please give me a definition that would permit me to take any two given life forms and determine whether or not they are the same kind or not. The definition must be sufficiently specific that using only the definition I am able to differentiate, but at the same time broad enough that it can apply to any two organisms.
 
To Baelor

*Please provide a definition of “kind.” Specifically, please give me a definition that would permit me to take any two given life forms and determine whether or not they are the same kind or not. The definition must be sufficiently specific that using only the definition I am able to differentiate, but at the same time broad enough that it can apply to any two organisms. *

Wel from the guys that work with fossils, the rule is “it’s up to you to draw the lines…” and find others to accept them…
 
A kind is not the same as species. Again, species is man’s attempt to classify.

Adaptation is variation within the kind, aka micro-evolution.

I know science works in a convenient way. If you cannot observe it, repeat it and predict it, we can do lots of storytelling. That is the essence of evolutionism.

An evolutionary claim is that whales evolved from land. List the morphological changes. Show me the actual evolutionary pathways.
You still have not even tried to define “kind”. It’s a necessity to have a definition to a word you’re going to use.
 
From 1912 to 1953 this was the proof of the missing link in human ebvolution; certified by the reputation of serious and dedicated scientists…
Well, this is the science by agreement…

*The Piltdown Man was a hoax in which bone fragments were presented as the fossilised remains of a previously unknown early human. These fragments consisted of parts of a skull and jawbone, said to have been collected in 1912 from a gravel pit at Piltdown, East Sussex, England. The Latin name Eoanthropus dawsoni (“Dawson’s dawn-man”, after the collector Charles Dawson) was given to the specimen. The significance of the specimen remained the subject of controversy until it was exposed in 1953 as a forgery, consisting of the lower jawbone of an orangutan that had been deliberately combined with the skull of a fully developed modern human.

The Piltdown hoax is perhaps the most famous paleontological hoax ever. It has been prominent for two reasons: the attention paid to the issue of human evolution, and the length of time (more than 40 years) that elapsed from its discovery to its full exposure as a forgery.*
 
Well, is it possible to bring the school in court because they taught you false things?
 
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