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Farsight001
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You’re avoiding the point - real people refer to mythological characters all the time. It does not suggest that they are real.
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Farsight001
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It’s not “now”. It always has been.
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Farsight001
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You have most definitely not completed your answer on kinds. Nowhere in your postings in this topic, nor in links you provided, has there been anything even remotely resembling a definition of kind.
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Baelor
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That is fine. Give us an abstract, with which, being so scholarly, you must be familiar. If someone asks a question, give them an answer, citing sources as necessary. It is obstructionist simply to defer the responsibility back onto them.
No, you did not. Give me a definition that will allow me to determine whether two organisms of arbitrary selection are of the same kind or not, or copy and paste a definition from one of your sources. That should not be difficult given that it is the premise of your argument.
You have indeed failed to come up with your own answers and simply launched a barrage of links.
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johnnyjones
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Yes, real people can do that, and real people can also not do that. No point missed, I just see diversion on your end. The genealogy of scriptual persons MUST be real, especially Christ’s, otherwise all prophesy from the OT is invalid, therefore Christ being the messiah would be invalidated. Maybe you don’t believe that Christ was the foretold messiah and reject his genealogy by framing the persons in it as mythical.
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rossum
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Jesus referred to the prodigal son, the ten wise virgins and a whole lot of other fictional characters.
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Farsight001
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The genealogy, in this context, must be real only back to David, as that is what the prophecy says.
But this is besides the point. You claimed that Adam must be a real person because Jesus referred to him. That is non-sensical reasoning, and the mention of J.R.R. Tolkein speaking about Frodo was an attempt to illustrate that.
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rossum
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HGT is evolution since it has an impact on genomes. It is not common descent, but it is very rare in multicellular organisms. Rare enough that ERVs can be used as markers to trace common descent after the HGT incident marked by the initial appearance of the ERV in the genome.
Think of ERVs as being like the scribal errors that help Bible scholars trace the hostory of old manuscripts and the groups they fall into.
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johnnyjones
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Parables. You need to find out what a parable is.
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Baelor
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Johnny, I think what they are saying is that Jesus could have been referring to Adam as a parable or concept of sorts. I could be wrong, however.
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Farsight001
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He knows what a parable is. That’s not only not an argument for you, it’s part of the point he was making.
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buffalo
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Review my numerous posts. I post and I back the posts with mainstream science links over and over again. Papers, abstracts and articles. Very rarely has anyone taken issue with the actual supporting resources. I feel at some point they should take the time to come up to speed themselves. Some posters call these mainstream papers lies because they do not like the implications.
I posted the answer. I referred you to baraminology experts. There you will find the methods and data for determining kinds. Keep in mind it is a relatively new field.
As with any post that you or I would make it comes down to supporting data. After this conversation though I think I will add more on bariminology to the resources page. I actually found more good stuff than I thought was out there. Thanks.
If you do not like IDvolution fine. If you wish to argue the various aspects fine. I have been doing this for a long time. At some point the skeptics must be able to argue against the supporting resources or its just antagonistic. Have you been watching some of the posts against it?
Where was the barrage of links? You will note that many times I provide three resources as a matter of course to support posts.
I gave you felines and canines.
Are you asking this because you had no clue that baraminology existed or some other reason?
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Farsight001
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You were not asked for an example of kinds. You were asked for a DEFINITION. You full well know that “felines and canines” is not a definition nor does referring a person to some other expert provide a definition. Stop trying to avoid the question.Review my numerous posts. I post and I back the posts with mainstream science links over and over again. Papers, abstracts and articles. Very rarely has anyone taken issue with the actual supporting resources. I feel at some point they should take the time to come up to speed themselves. Some posters call these mainstream papers lies because they do not like the implications.
I posted the answer. I referred you to baraminology experts. There you will find the methods and data for determining kinds. Keep in mind it is a relatively new field.
As with any post that you or I would make it comes down to supporting data. After this conversation though I think I will add more on bariminology to the resources page. I actually found more good stuff than I thought was out there. Thanks.
If you do not like IDvolution fine. If you wish to argue the various aspects fine. I have been doing this for a long time. At some point the skeptics must be able to argue against the supporting resources or its just antagonistic. Have you been watching some of the posts against it?
Where was the barrage of links? You will note that many times I provide three resources as a matter of course to support posts.
I gave you felines and canines.
Are you asking this because you had no clue that baraminology existed or some other reason?
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johnnyjones
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Abel was not a parable. It was a lineage description, clear as day.
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Baelor
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There is no catching up necessary. Baraminology assumes the Bible to be true literally in a particular regard and then operates from that assumption. The key to that assumption is that different kinds were created and that these kinds are not subject to evolution.
In other words, the presence of kinds is the foundation of baraminology, the same baraminology that has basically no support within the actual scientific community whatsoever. Note that the Wikipedia article does not provide a definition of kinds, nor have you.
So please do it now. It is not a difficult request, nor is it an unreasonable request.
In case the request was not clear, let me repeat it for you:
Produce a definition of “kind” that permits me to determine whether two arbitrarily selected organisms are of the same kind or not.
Where? I have reviewed your posts and did not see it anywhere.
I am not interested in determining what constitutes a baraminology expert. I am interested in a single thing: the definition of “kind” that you are using. You mentioned it, you are an apologist for baraminology on this thread, and therefore you have a self-imposed obligation to answer questions that deal with this “field” of “science” at a very basic and accessible level. Do not post a link to a 500-page paper that may include an inkling of a definition of “kind.” That is a waste of everyone’s time and is simply inconsiderate. Post the definition. If it is quoted from somewhere, fine. Just post the definition anyway and link to the paper underneath.
I am not interested in arguing IDvolution. I am not interested in determining whether evolution exists or not. I am interested in exactly what I ask. What I have been asking is for a definition of “kind.” That is my sole concern. Anything else is of no interest to me whatsoever.
Post 618 most recently.
That is not a definition. If you asked me what a whole number was, and I said, “2,” you would be unsatisfied for the same reason that I am unsatisfied with that answer.
My motives are irrelevant. There is absolutely no ambiguity in the very simple request I and others have made. If you continue being an obstructionist, I will report you.
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rossum
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I am perfectly well aware of what a parable is. What I was saying, in an indirect way, was that the story of Adam is itself also a parable. The point is not the details of the story, but the moral message that the story conveys.
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rossum
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johnnyjones
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“From the blood of”… A LINE OF the murdered. Zacharias, also mentioned in the same sentence with Abel was also murdered (stoned) when he prophesied against the people under King Joash (2nd Chron. 24: 20-24). Is he fictional too? When you strip away the people or make them unreal ,you need to keep getting more and more inventive.
Heb.12:24 :And to Jesus the mediator of A NEW COVENANT, and to a sprinkling of BLOOD which speaks better than ABEL. Jesus is up-scaling his blood from a fake Abel?
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kama3
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Meaning? It was a simple yes or no question.Ok…
Let me ask again:
My sect has it divinely revealed by the Flying Spaghetti Monster that Cygnus X-1 is in fact an alien spacecraft and not a black hole. We note that nobody has ever seen a black hole, and they are a purely theoretical construct, introduced by the theory of General Relativity, which is just that - a theory.
The supposed “proof” of the black hole in Cygnus X-1, namely, there observed spectrum of X-ray emissions, can be adequately explained using information about the operation of alien spacecrafts, as divinely revealed to us by FSM.
Further, we note that the very notion of the black hole is a blasphemous lie, manufactured by the secular establishment, in order to turn people away from the true faith in FSM. The physicists claim that someone falling into a black hole would experience death by spaghettification. We hold that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a benevolent entity, hence a mode of death including spaghetti is a self-contradictory, heretical blashemy.
The existence of FSM is sufficiently attested by tens of independent sightings, as listed on the veganza.org website, and the FSM is recognized as an existing divine entity by thousands (if not millions) of our adherents worldwide.
Thus, we demand that our view on black holes be included in the school curriculum.
My question is, again: do you agree with our right to teach the FSM view on black holes to school children or not and why?
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Ion
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Well, you didn’t read The Bible; After the sin, God kept in touch with Adam, Cain, Abel etc…
“Death entered the world”; Jesus Christ died on cross…
Your “spiritual death” is a meaningless blablabla
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