Darwin's Theory of Evolution is not scientific

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No. The Buffalo says it’s a trigger! …
Double newsflash, it is a metaphor for Chaos theory
If the initial value of a chaotic function is 1.00000000000000 then the result is very very different from a starting value of 1.00000000000001
Get a grip (on your patellas)!

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Just as the fact that all the Bolt family’s members can run does not negate the Principle of Sufficient Reason neither does the Butterfly Effect/Chaos Theory. They are both just deflections that do not negate Buffalo’s post: An effect cannot have properties greater than those in one or more of its causes. Try again.
 
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And this example shows you exactly how daft the concept if. Theoretical maths has little correlation with day to day “sliding-doors” reality
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And this example shows you exactly how daft the concept if. Theoretical maths has little correlation with day to day “sliding-doors” reality
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I think it’s time to cut to the chase. What the recent discussion about wings and nails is about is effectively the claim that you can’t get something more out of a system than you put in. The ‘effects cannot be greater than their cause’ is just clumsy creationism shorthand for the second law of thermodynamics. Which states that ‘in a closed system, entropy increases over time’. That is, in layman’s terms, there is a tendency to disorder.

So creationists grab onto this lifeline and tug it for all it’s worth. Because it seems (to those without an understanding of the physics and biology) that it precludes complex systems (such as us) emerging from random disordered systems (obviously requiring some (name removed by moderator)ut from the deity of your choice).

But note the term ‘closed system’ above. The closed system that some would have you consider is the universe. And they state, quite correctly, that the total entropy of this closed system must, according to the law, increase. So things wear down. Things die. Stars run out of fuel. And this is a one way street. It’s not reversible.

However, what is quite often conveniently skipped over is that living organisms and the process of evolution which forms them are NOT closed systems. Yes, there is a local decrease in entropy when something is born and grows. Various compounds and chemicals are rearranged from a disordered state to an ordered one. BUT the overall entropy of the closed system - the universe, is increased. Because by simply existing, any given organism is turning food - an ordered set of compounds and chemicals powered itself by low entropy sunlight, into high entropy heat and waste.

We are part of the process that is increasing the average entropy of the universe. So in the grand scheme of things, it’s all downhill. But life, and the process by which it evolved is a localised decrease in entropy which allows this.

Life itself is order from disorder. So maintaining this clumsy ‘youse cain’t get sumpin’ from nuttin’ attitude is actually not just denying evolution but is denying the very existence of life itself.
 
There is a classic creationist post from 2005 which gets this almost right:
One of the most basic laws in the universe is the Second Law of Thermodynamics. This states that as time goes by, entropy in an environment will increase. Evolution argues differently against a law that is accepted EVERYWHERE BY EVERYONE. Evolution says that we started out simple, and over time became more complex. That just isn’t possible: UNLESS there is a giant outside source of energy supplying the Earth with huge amounts of energy. If there were such a source, scientists would certainly know about it.

Source: Smashboards
Yes, boys and girls, there is a “giant outside source of energy” which supplies the Earth with huge amounts of energy. And yes, scientists certainly know about it.

So near and yet so far…

rossum
 
There is a classic creationist post from 2005 which gets this almost right:
One of the most basic laws in the universe is the Second Law of Thermodynamics. This states that as time goes by, entropy in an environment will increase. Evolution argues differently against a law that is accepted EVERYWHERE BY EVERYONE. Evolution says that we started out simple, and over time became more complex. That just isn’t possible: UNLESS there is a giant outside source of energy supplying the Earth with huge amounts of energy. If there were such a source, scientists would certainly know about it.

Source: Smashboards
But there was a follow up. Apparently cut ‘n’ pasted from ChristianAnswers.net:

‘If there is actually a powerful Evolutionary force at work in the universe, and if the open system of Earth makes all the difference, why does the Sun’s energy not make a truly dead plant become alive again (assuming a sufficient supply of water, light, and the like)?’

Why not indeed…
 
I think it’s time to cut to the chase. …

Life itself is order from disorder.
Now the above cuts to the chase. I skipped all the pseudo-physics gibberish in the middle.

Apparently, you missed all the “=” signs in the equations for the laws of thermodynamics. And you even think that the second law contradicts the first. As usual, the conclusion drawn begs the question in the OP. The correct conclusion is that the the laws of thermodynamics do not contradict but reinforce the principle of sufficient reason. But I’m sure the atheists mutual admiration society will continue to congratulate itself on this “strike three” effort at coherence for their beloved science.
 
Yes, boys and girls, there is a “giant outside source of energy” which supplies the Earth with huge amounts of energy. And yes, scientists certainly know about it.

So near and yet so far…
Any information riding on those light waves?
 
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Bradskii:
I think it’s time to cut to the chase. …

Life itself is order from disorder.
Now the above cuts to the chase. I skipped all the pseudo-physics gibberish in the middle.

Apparently, you missed all the “=” signs in the equations for the laws of thermodynamics. And you even think that the second law contradicts the first. As usual, the conclusion drawn begs the question in the OP. The correct conclusion is that the the laws of thermodynamics do not contradict but reinforce the principle of sufficient reason. But I’m sure the atheists mutual admiration society will continue to congratulate itself on this “strike three” effort at coherence for their beloved science.
The principle of sufficient reason is not being discussed. And whether it is valid or not does not preclude us from discussing whether the second law is valid or not when it comes to biological processes in an open system.

On that SPECIFIC point, which is the point being discussed, then if you have any relevant comments then please feel free to make them.

And what you class as gibberish is a relatively simple explanation of the second law. Again please free to refute any aspect of it whatsoever at your leisure.
 
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rossum:
Yes, boys and girls, there is a “giant outside source of energy” which supplies the Earth with huge amounts of energy. And yes, scientists certainly know about it.

So near and yet so far…
Any information riding on those light waves?
We aren’t talking about information. Just like we weren’t talking about the principle of sufficient reason. Can you guys please try to focus?

The power of the sun has relatively low entropy. When it is returned (via various biological processes), then it is relatively high.

Do you understand any of this? It appears that you don’t realise that it is essential to your argument.
 
Any information riding on those light waves?
Yes. Those light waves contain information about their source: its temperature, its chemical composition and the reactions that are occurring there. They also contain information about the light itself: frequency, polarization, wavelength. There is a lot of information in light, as any astronomer will tell you.

rossum
 
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o_mlly:
Now the above cuts to the chase. I skipped all the pseudo-physics gibberish in the middle.
So, here’s my question: at the level at which mutations happen… is system complexity more ordered or less ordered?

Intuitively, it seems to me that we’re conflating two distinct issues and attempting to describe one in terms of the other.

Time for a thought experiment:

Let’s suppose that I have a string of bits. Each can hold a value of ‘zero’ or ‘one’. In fact, let’s say that I have many tablets, each filled with strings of bits.

Let’s further suppose that I have a ‘converter’ of sorts, that allows us to view each grouping of eight bits – that is, a ‘byte’ – as a single unit. Moreover, let’s suppose that it allows us to view it as a particular encoding: ASCII encoding, which is the encoding you’re using right now to view my text. It’s really just ones-and-zeroes, but according to an arbitrary encoding, you see a particular series of bits as the letter “A”, and another particular series of bits as an exclamation mark. They’re present because I intended them to be there, of course, but that’s different than our thought experiment!

Now, let’s say that I have a system that somewhat randomly and arbitrarily mutates some of these bits. So, I start out with one set of tablets, and they get run through the system, and new tablets are created. They’re not identical to the original tablets, but there’s a correspondence there.

Let’s further suppose that there’s an environment that is able to ‘select’ between tablets, according to certain criteria. This environment prefers certain tablets to others, and selects the ones that will be sent through the system (and selects the ones that will not be sent through the system).

I think that it’s not unreasonable to see that, perhaps, the ‘selection’ that’s taking place on a macro level will be a selection of criteria visible to that level. Maybe the selector prefers the letter “A”, and chooses tablets that have lots of that letter. Maybe the selector prefers sequences of bytes that look like Italian words, and chooses tables that have lots of them! In any case, in each successive ‘generation’ of tablets, we get more and more of the preferred characteristic. In fact, it might even turn out successive generations that look closer and closer to a particular design!

Now… does this violate entropy? Nope: entropy is happening at the micro level – as bits are changed (in this example, by the system, but in the real world, by external factors). Does the set of observable characteristics at the macro level change? Absolutely! But… they’re changing without violating entropy!

One last thought: what if there were a being who was – imperceptibly and without violating the ways the system worked – moving the tablets toward his own (let’s call it ‘omniscient’) goal? Would that system be discernibly different than the system without his influence? (Nope!) Would that system obey the laws of entropy? (Yep!) Would that system exhibit the same characteristics of ‘selection’? (Yep!)

So, IMHO: entropy doesn’t disprove evolution. Evolution doesn’t disprove God.
 
Correct, but the OP is that Darwin’s Theory of Evolution is not scientific
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QUESTIONS:
  1. I have another thread I posted which kind of relates to this thread. I’ve been toying with the idea of checking out a non-denominational church whose beliefs take Genesis literally. I believe in evolution. For those of you who take Genesis literally, how do you reconcile that with science and the overwhelming number of scientists who believe in evolution vs a literal belief in Genesis?
  2. A poster on that thread said that Catholics aren’t allowed to believe in evolution, and to believe in it is to be “not Catholic”. I thought Catholics are most certainly allowed to believe in evolution. Am I wrong?
 
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2 Catholics can believe in evolution, but must NOT deny Adam and Eve
  1. There are no non-denominational churches; in reality they are Protestant, protesting against some Catholic teaching.
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Yes. Those light waves contain information about their source: its temperature, its chemical composition and the reactions that are occurring there. They also contain information about the light itself: frequency, polarization, wavelength. There is a lot of information in light, as any astronomer will tell you.
You well know what I was asking, but you ducked.
 
You misread what the Church teaches. It does NOT teach we must accept evolution

But it DOES teach that God created Adam & Eve
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You misread what the Church teaches. It does NOT teach we must accept evolution

But it DOES teach that God created Adam & Eve
I don’t mean that Catholics must accept evolution but that we are free to believe in it. Right or wrong?

And if we believe in evolution, how did Adam and Eve come to be?
 
Now you misread me; I said that the Church DOES teach that God created Adam & Eve (and to be Catholics we must accept this)

As a Catholic you are then free to accept or dismiss evolution
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