Dating and a return to virtue

[edwest2]

A fine article that contrasts hook-up culture with authentic relationships.

the-american-catholic.com/2014/05/19/can-it-possibly-be-a-return-to-virtue-at-boston-college/

Peace,
Ed

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

When you ask somebody, you risk failing, and nobody likes to fail or be vulnerable to rejection….[Undergraduates] like to push themselves out of their comfort zone only if the energy and effort will equal success. But when asking someone out, nothing can ensure the person is going to say yes.

Unfortunately, it’s that failure that causes the hook-up culture to spawn regardless. You raise a poor geek’s hopes up and then just see it all dash from rejection. And if you think the idea of ‘more fish in the sea’ or ‘moving on’ is in no way responsible for the cheapening of romantic relationships, you need to reevaluate your logic. Just look at the words alone: ‘hook up.’ What does that tell ya?

People who espouse the culture of commitment enjoy laying the blame of society’s ills on the hook-up culture. And yet, if this article is right about its cynicism, that same culture is really its bastard child. Again, you raise a man’s hopes but he fails despite his best, who wouldn’t grow cynical!?

This might sound crazy but one scene in Kung-Fu Panda actually expresses this point clearly. The culture of commitment is represented by Master Shifu and the hook-up culture, the supposed villain, is Tai Lung:

Tai Lung: You knew I was the Dragon Warrior! You always knew! But when Oogway said otherwise, what did you do? What did you do? NOTHING!

Shifu: You were not meant to be the Dragon Warrior, that was not my fault!

Tai Lung: Not your fault? Who filled my head with dreams!? Who drove me to train until my bones cracked? WHO DENIED ME MY DESTINY!!?

People are so quick to blame lust on a lot of things. But when raising hope was what lead to despair and disappointment, they wash their hands and look the other way.

 

[Naskor]

Unfortunately, it’s that failure that causes the hook-up culture to spawn regardless. You raise a poor geek’s hopes up and then just see it all dash from rejection. And if you think the idea of ‘more fish in the sea’ or ‘moving on’ is in no way responsible for the cheapening of romantic relationships, you need to reevaluate your logic. Just look at the words alone: ‘hook up.’ What does that tell ya?

People who espouse the culture of commitment enjoy laying the blame of society’s ills on the hook-up culture. And yet, if this article is right about its cynicism, that same culture is really its bastard child. Again, you raise a man’s hopes but he fails despite his best, who wouldn’t grow cynical!?

This might sound crazy but one scene in Kung-Fu Panda actually expresses this point clearly. The culture of commitment is represented by Master Shifu and the hook-up culture, the supposed villain, is Tai Lung:

People are so quick to blame lust on a lot of things. But when raising hope was what lead to despair and disappointment, they wash their hands and look the other way.

Agreed with everything you’ve posted. I just looked up what Kerry Cronin is supposedly teaching about dating and it’s the same thing as hook-up culture.

You find someone is an attractive stranger, this is important because dating within one’s social circle creates “drama”, and quickly ask them out. Don’t wait till you know them better because then it gets “akward”. Have a one-to-one interaction without friends or even chaperon and away from loud public places.

Sounds like a really great formula for transforming a date into a hook-up.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Sounds like a really great formula for transforming a date into a hook-up.

It’s complications like that which have really turned me off from a lot of mainstream ideas on romantic relationships.

That’s not to say I don’t play the so-called game in one way or another but at the heart of me? I’m really just approaching it all like Genghis Khan/Conan the Barbarian:

To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.

It’s incredibly selfish yes but by God, it sure is ten times simpler than what today’s dating has come to entail. Maybe I’m just a brute at heart but all this courtship and competition would seem pointless in a world where I could just hack a few heads off to prove my point.

And no, you don’t have to be a jock or an MMA grunt to have that kind of mentality.

 

[St_Francis]

Wow, Lost Wanderer and Naskor, you make me think that people were right, back in the day, to vilify fiction.

 

[St_Francis]

A fine article that contrasts hook-up culture with authentic relationships.

the-american-catholic.com/2014/05/19/can-it-possibly-be-a-return-to-virtue-at-boston-college/

Peace,
Ed

We think of American-style dating as “authentic relationships”? No… combined with no-fault divorce, all we have is sequential monogamy–going steady with one person until they stop pleasing you, then moving on. Sometimes there’s a public ceremony, but marriage has deteriorated to the point that it is no more than the big party.

The hookup culture is a natural outgrowth of the way our culture treats every aspect of procreation and related institutions.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Wow, Lost Wanderer and Naskor, you make me think that people were right, back in the day, to vilify fiction.

LOL!! And comments like yours tempt me to think that atheists today are right, the Bible is a work of romantic fiction.

 

[Kamaduck]

So wait, she has students go on a date as an assignment? :ehh:

I think I might have trouble completing that particular assignment, but I guess it’s a nice thought.

 

[St_Francis]

LOL!! And comments like yours tempt me to think that atheists today are right, the Bible is a work of romantic fiction.

Why would you think that? To me the problem is that there is so much focus on the fantastic, or adventuring, or magical romance in fiction that people’s expectations for their own lives are raised too high. Things like these things happen, but only to a very few. Even in wartime, few actually see battle, and many are left at home.

But the lessons of the struggles of the Israelites can be applied to our own lives. As a people, they moved towards and away from God. We do the same. The important part of the story is not the fantasical elements but the lesson.

And yes, some of the Israelites got to witness the miracles of Christ, but we can witness and partake in a miracle of Christ’s every day or whenever we can make it to Mass.

 

[Naskor]

We think of American-style dating as “authentic relationships”? No… combined with no-fault divorce, all we have is sequential monogamy–going steady with one person until they stop pleasing you, then moving on. Sometimes there’s a public ceremony, but marriage has deteriorated to the point that it is no more than the big party.

The hookup culture is a natural outgrowth of the way our culture treats every aspect of procreation and related institutions.

Yes. Ms. Cronin has a very romanticized view of American dating culture. Shes trying to get people to date like they did in the 1950s yet based on what she though the 1950s were like. But it was those marriages in the 1950s that would become the source of the huge growth of divorces in the 1960s and 1970s.

Her trying to replacing serial monogamy with serial dating isn’t much better.

 

[edwest2]

We think of American-style dating as “authentic relationships”? No… combined with no-fault divorce, all we have is sequential monogamy–going steady with one person until they stop pleasing you, then moving on. Sometimes there’s a public ceremony, but marriage has deteriorated to the point that it is no more than the big party.

The hookup culture is a natural outgrowth of the way our culture treats every aspect of procreation and related institutions.

Catholics are called to renew the culture, one child, niece or nephew at a time. Why are some Catholic parents home-schooling? Why is at least one father saying “I don’t want this village to help raise my child.” There is nothing natural about the hook-up culture. It took 40 years of lies and deception to reach this point. Rejection is a part of life. It can happen at work or even at school. Do you just give up? No. You keep trying to get better. To take another chance.

In my case, I know of some creative people who are not willing to take the chance that their art or writing might be rejected. And that’s fine. It’s your choice. But of the successful creatives I know, and work with, you keep learning, growing, accepting the fact the fact that life is not always going to be sunshine and roses. You keep trying. And of those who keep trying, they eventually achieve a level of success.

When you get out of bed each day, you keep trying.

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

Yes. Ms. Cronin has a very romanticized view of American dating culture. Shes trying to get people to date like they did in the 1950s yet based on what she though the 1950s were like. But it was those marriages in the 1950s that would become the source of the huge growth of divorces in the 1960s and 1970s.

Her trying to replacing serial monogamy with serial dating isn’t much better.

That is entirely without any historical basis. It is fiction. I will promote people dating like they did in the 1950s. I knew those people. I lived with them. Real dating is the right way to restore the proper understanding of how male and female relationships should work.

1. First dates are for fun and not much more. You go out with a few people to get a sense of what dating’s like.
2. Sometimes, each person wants to go on more dates, which means there is not just a physical attraction but an “I like to be with this person because he’s fun and treats me nice.”
3. Going steady means “I want to get to know you better. I want you to be my friend.” This must involve being open and honest, which results in earning each other’s trust and respect."
4. If marriage gets brought up, the relationship enters the courtship phase. You must meet each other’s parents and get to know them too. The apple doesn’t fall too far from the tree.
5. You do other, non-dating things together. Things you both like to do and things that only the other person likes to do. The only reason I went to a play was because my girlfriend was interested, and we both enjoyed it.
6. If you find you trust, respect and feel respected by the other person, an engagement may occur. It should last at least one year and should involve parents on both sides. You talk about your plans for the future and how you are going to achieve them

My good friend sat down with his wife-to-be’s father and announced his intention to marry his daughter. Her father, having been his age once, asked all the practical questions so that the feelings met the practical reality: “How will you support yourselves? Do you have reliable transportation? Where will you live? What about children?” This is not done to intimidate the guy but to get him to think about the things that both he and her will have to deal with after the ceremony. The father would also ask about the guy’s job and some personal life questions. He didn’t want his daughter to marry a lazy, alcoholic or drug addicted guy who would be an unstable influence on his daughter and their kids.

The rule the nuns taught us was 'keep it in your pants until you get married, PERIOD." And we believed them. You avoided dating the girls that were known to sleep around. You didn’t bother them about it.

So those couples who got married in the 1950s had no Pill, no IUD, no spermicidal foam and no morning-after pill. And they had one other quality that is lacking in too many - they were content with what they had. They also saved money instead of paying some stranger 18%. No one I knew had a credit card in the 1960s. And if you couldn’t afford it, you did without. Especially if it was a toy or other cool thing that you could do without.

The problem today is the brainwashing of the last 40 years. Abortion is legal and the man was in another room when the girl gets pregnant and then disappears. Did the people want that? No. We were lied to. The Supreme Court made the wrong decision.

No-Fault Divorce? Did the people want that? No. But we were told that to clear court dockets, they - meaning not us - would set up a No-Fault system. Great, huh? Not.

How about smoking dope? Yeah, let’s legalize that and waste our time and smoke in our lungs is still smoke in our lungs. The idiots from the late 1960s are slowly getting their way. So we have not just drunk on alcohol drivers but drivers who also smoked some dope along with the booze, and got into an accident.

And sex. I’ve read a few accounts from women who said that sex with their husbands was wonderful because having kids was on both their minds, and I grew up surrounded by a lot of kids. But guess what? In the 1950s, the average number of kids for miles around was two - TWO. But how could that be without “modern” contraception? Could it be something called “SELF CONTROL”?

In order to be good Catholics, we have to self-control our mouths, our public behavior, our food intake and other things. We were taught self-discipline. We were taught to work hard and do a good job. Being a slacker was not an option.

Peace,
Ed

 

[St_Francis]

Ed,
I see what you are saying. Bit after the hippies and other free love make love not war Pill-popping cohabitating bra-burning folks had their way with the institution, dating *changed. *I don’t think, now that we’ve had all these additions and fewer and fewer people remember the type of dating you recall, that we can just turn back the clock to a time set in a situation in which women could get pregnant and couldn’t “erase” the “pregnancy;” IOW, when there was still a cultural understanding that there was some linkage between sex and babies.

Maybe what I’m saying is that the terms have been co-opted, like the rainbow and the word “gay.” Or maybe the culture, as described in the article, has moved so far along that if one started to use the terms and engage in the activities, it would be a whole new thing!

 

[edwest2]

Ed,
I see what you are saying. Bit after the hippies and other free love make love not war Pill-popping cohabitating bra-burning folks had their way with the institution, dating *changed. *I don’t think, now that we’ve had all these additions and fewer and fewer people remember the type of dating you recall, that we can just turn back the clock to a time set in a situation in which women could get pregnant and couldn’t “erase” the “pregnancy;” IOW, when there was still a cultural understanding that there was some linkage between sex and babies.

Maybe what I’m saying is that the terms have been co-opted, like the rainbow and the word “gay.” Or maybe the culture, as described in the article, has moved so far along that if one started to use the terms and engage in the activities, it would be a whole new thing!

We are called in the new evangelization to spread the word of God and the behaviors we are to follow. Each one of us. Regarding dating right now? This is better? One Pope said we should not settle for mediocrity.

Again, this is better? Women and men who shack up are not in a formal, committed relationship. People were taught, all the way from the late 1960s, that cohabitation was OK. Yeah, they were also told to reject every authority - their parents, the Church, everyone. I heard “Don’t trust anyone over 30!” but then who do you trust? A bunch of anarchists and Hippies with the regulation length hair, who smoked the regulation dope and wore the regulation length chains? And who used the regulation Hippie-talk? Who told us corporations were evil? Who sold us perverted sex in comix and underground newspapers, along with promoting Marxism, and Communism (hey man, let’s start a commune). They promised us a Woodstock Nation and freedom - mainly from ANY type of sexual restraint, and lots of pleasure: “Hey man. If it feels good, do it.” Women with three different kids from three different fathers? Getting on welfare? Using some or most of the other illegal drugs? Oh yeah, that was cool !

That devolved to “your thing,” whatever it was, as being OK. “Hey man. Your thing may not be my thing and my thing might not be your thing, but that’s OK.” Really? That further devolved into a book titled “I’m OK - You’re OK.” Again, total strangers were leading people astray for one primary purpose: to destroy the family. Porn violated the privacy and sanctity of married conjugal love. Who financed that?

Wake up, my brothers and sisters. Wake up, please.

amazon.com/Extreme-Makeover-Transformed-Conformed-Culture/dp/1586175610

amazon.com/Noise-Media-saturated-Dominates-Dismantles-Families/dp/1932927948/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1400884615&sr=1-1&keywords=noise+tomeo

amazon.com/Marketing-Evil-Pseudo-Experts-Corruption-Disguised/dp/1581824599/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1400884653&sr=1-1&keywords=the+marketing+of+evil+by+david+kupelian

We are called, each of us, to renew the culture. As I heard on Catholic Radio, we are the counter-culture. We need to speak up and act. This is not better. Today is not better. The media culture has not become better. In fact, it continues to grow gradually worse. Modeling ALL the wrong behaviors so it can to show us that perversion is good, greed is good, and other morally bad things are good, neutral or OK.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Naskor]

And sex. I’ve read a few accounts from women who said that sex with their husbands was wonderful because having kids was on both their minds, and I grew up surrounded by a lot of kids. But guess what? In the 1950s, the average number of kids for miles around was two - TWO. But how could that be without “modern” contraception? Could it be something called “SELF CONTROL”?

Peace,
Ed

Ed, I do agree with you on pretty much everything you said. But American’s have been using birth control much longer than the last 30 or so years. In fact there was a lot of contraceptive use during the 1950s.

pbs.org/wgbh/amex/pill/timeline/index.html

1. 
   *]Americans spend an estimated $200 million a year on contraceptives. Due to massive improvements over the past decade in condom quality and a growing awareness of the inadequacies of douches, “rubbers” are the most popular form of birth control on the market.
   
   I do agree that we are called to be counter-cultural but trying to emulate a romanticized version of a culture is NOT the way to go. If we are make to change we need to be honest and say that there was never this perfect Catholic courting scheme in America.

 

[edwest2]

Ed, I do agree with you on pretty much everything you said. But American’s have been using birth control much longer than the last 30 or so years. In fact there was a lot of contraceptive use during the 1950s.

pbs.org/wgbh/amex/pill/timeline/index.html

1. 
   *]Americans spend an estimated $200 million a year on contraceptives. Due to massive improvements over the past decade in condom quality and a growing awareness of the inadequacies of douches, “rubbers” are the most popular form of birth control on the market.
   
   I do agree that we are called to be counter-cultural but trying to emulate a romanticized version of a culture is NOT the way to go. If we are make to change we need to be honest and say that there was never this perfect Catholic courting scheme in America.

1. 
   A common response. And a wrong response. I was there. I saw it myself and it’s well documented. We are called to be perfect. That is the point. Over the last 40 years, I saw strangers try to convince the general public that ‘it’s all just too hard, too demanding.’ Guess what? Anything worth doing is hard and demanding. Being a Catholic means not praising God with your lips alone.
   
   biblehub.com/matthew/15-8.htm
   
   And then the lies appear. “Oh, you could never live up to that.” Why not? That’s honesty, at least as far as Catholics. We are called to holiness.
   
   biblehub.com/revelation/3-16.htm
   
   Lukewarm doesn’t cut it.
   
   Peace,
   Ed

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Why would you think that? To me the problem is that there is so much focus on the fantastic, or adventuring, or magical romance in fiction that people’s expectations for their own lives are raised too high. Things like these things happen, but only to a very few. Even in wartime, few actually see battle, and many are left at home.

Right and the Bible’s talk of miracles and God raining punishment on the oh-so evil pagans in no way raises people’s expectations.

But the lessons of the struggles of the Israelites can be applied to our own lives. As a people, they moved towards and away from God. We do the same. The important part of the story is not the fantasical elements but the lesson.

Jacob had four wives. Are you trying to advocate for or against the players of the hookup culture here?

All of this of course, is beside the point. It was always was the minute you made your irrelevant jab of fiction vs non-fiction. This isn’t even about that. It’s about how people are having their hopes raised by a so-called counterculture movement but when despair and disappointment settle in, people like you don’t want to be held accountable!

In my case, I know of some creative people who are not willing to take the chance that their art or writing might be rejected. And that’s fine. It’s your choice. But of the successful creatives I know, and work with, you keep learning, growing, accepting the fact the fact that life is not always going to be sunshine and roses. You keep trying. And of those who keep trying, they eventually achieve a level of success.

When you get out of bed each day, you keep trying.

You compare romantic relationships to job hunting and career application.

Uh-huh. You and the hookup guys are real different all right.

 

[St_Francis]

We are called in the new evangelization to spread the word of God and the behaviors we are to follow. Each one of us. Regarding dating right now? This is better? One Pope said we should not settle for mediocrity.

You seem to be advocating dating as long as it’s 1950s style. I don’t think we can return to that with all the changes that have occurred, among which is another I had forgotten–used to be a young man could marry and support a family when he was younger. Now that is very difficult and in many places requires 2 parents to work, often *after *they have gone to college and made some in-roads on their college loans…

I just think that the structural changes that have taken place in society militate against a resumption of 1950s-style dating.

The fact that I disagree with you about which path to take going forward in no way indicates that I am for leaving everything as it is or that I refuse to participate in the new evangelization!

Again, this is better? Women and men who shack up are not in a formal, committed relationship. People were taught, all the way from the late 1960s, that cohabitation was OK. Yeah, they were also told to reject every authority - their parents, the Church, everyone. I heard “Don’t trust anyone over 30!” but then who do you trust? A bunch of anarchists and Hippies with the regulation length hair, who smoked the regulation dope and wore the regulation length chains? And who used the regulation Hippie-talk? Who told us corporations were evil? Who sold us perverted sex in comix and underground newspapers, along with promoting Marxism, and Communism (hey man, let’s start a commune). They promised us a Woodstock Nation and freedom - mainly from ANY type of sexual restraint, and lots of pleasure: “Hey man. If it feels good, do it.” Women with three different kids from three different fathers? Getting on welfare? Using some or most of the other illegal drugs? Oh yeah, that was cool !

That devolved to “your thing,” whatever it was, as being OK. “Hey man. Your thing may not be my thing and my thing might not be your thing, but that’s OK.” Really? That further devolved into a book titled “I’m OK - You’re OK.” Again, total strangers were leading people astray for one primary purpose: to destroy the family. Porn violated the privacy and sanctity of married conjugal love. Who financed that?

Wake up, my brothers and sisters. Wake up, please.

amazon.com/Extreme-Makeover-Transformed-Conformed-Culture/dp/1586175610

amazon.com/Noise-Media-saturated-Dominates-Dismantles-Families/dp/1932927948/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1400884615&sr=1-1&keywords=noise+tomeo

amazon.com/Marketing-Evil-Pseudo-Experts-Corruption-Disguised/dp/1581824599/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1400884653&sr=1-1&keywords=the+marketing+of+evil+by+david+kupelian

We are called, each of us, to renew the culture. As I heard on Catholic Radio, we are the counter-culture. We need to speak up and act. This is not better. Today is not better. The media culture has not become better. In fact, it continues to grow gradually worse. Modeling ALL the wrong behaviors so it can to show us that perversion is good, greed is good, and other morally bad things are good, neutral or OK.

Peace,
Ed

 

[St_Francis]

Right and the Bible’s talk of miracles and God raining punishment on the oh-so evil pagans in no way raises people’s expectations.

A lot of people back then didn’t get all these interesting experiences–they just lived their lives out in obscurity. You seem to think that you are somehow due what was given to only a few to begin with!

Jacob had four wives. Are you trying to advocate for or against the players of the hookup culture here?

Four? I thought it was two? For whom he worked a total of 14 years because he was teicked into marrying the first?

All of this of course, is beside the point. It was always was the minute you made your irrelevant jab of fiction vs non-fiction. This isn’t even about that. It’s about how people are having their hopes raised by a so-called counterculture movement but when despair and disappointment settle in, people like you don’t want to be held accountable!

Well, one “meme” I remember from back then is: If you aren’t part of the solution, you’re part of the problem." The counter-culture isn’t something out there which may come parading down our street–either we are a part of it or we are not. And being part of it is what we are called to. We aren’t called to encounter leviathans, slaughter every last Canaanite, pop people over walls in baskets… Hey, you could have had the exciting life of a ba’al-worshipping Canaanite!

no, you are called to something different. If you want to see the counter-cultural revolution, you have to go out and be part of it. It won’t be like what was in the OT, bit it will be God’s will for you.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

A lot of people back then didn’t get all these interesting experiences–they just lived their lives out in obscurity. You seem to think that you are somehow due what was given to only a few to begin with!

Doesn’t change the fact that they’re just as much the highlights of the Bible as in many cases of fiction.

And why are you even persisting here? My point is you’re just as guilty of raising expectations as the romanticizers.

The only thing you’re right about is that I do believe I’m due a lotta things. Not only that, I’m bent on taking it. The best part is that there’s nothing you can do because you were never in any position to tell me what I do or don’t deserve. You don’t even know me personally enough to even make that assumption.

Four? I thought it was two? For whom he worked a total of 14 years because he was teicked into marrying the first?

Does it matter? Four wives is four wives. I know plenty engaged in hookups who certainly wouldn’t complain as much as Jacob.

Hey, you could have had the exciting life of a ba’al-worshipping Canaanite!

I’m sure I’d have a successful love life as well.

But again, you are clearly pretending there’s no elephant in the room.