Dating/Courship vs Marriage: dichotomy of attitudes

[pumpkinbeast]

Okay, I’ve had a couple thoughts pertaining to people’s attitudes in dating/courtship (pick your favorite term for ‘two Catholic people of the opposite sex being in an exclusive relationship with the intention to discern if they are supposed to be married or not’, I’m not here to thrash vocabulary around) and in marriage.

So, we all have how marriage is supposed to be down pat: a husband and wife in a totally self-giving relationship, with their acts of love being open to new life. Not so easy to be totally self-giving in practice, I’m sure, but easy enough to define.

Now, back to what I’m going to call ‘dating’. There are plenty of different opinions on how one should or should not go about dating. And they all seem pretty darn selfish, when you get down to them. You have your list of ‘must-haves’ (be Catholic, be intelligent, etc.), almost like you’re shopping for some kind of car or house. Then, you decide if you’re physically attracted to the other person. Then it gets muddled; some people say we’re smart enough to pick a good spouse on our own, and shouldn’t sit about praying for God to send us our one true love. Some people say that yes, we should pray for God to send us our one true love in His time, if we’re called to be married, etc, and therefore should be constantly praying during the relationship to make ABSOLUTELY sure that this is the person God is pointing us towards. But it all seems very ‘me me me I I I’ centered. “I want this in a spouse” “I’m attracted to this person” “I think this is who God wants me to marry”

I’m confused as to how one goes from the ‘check-list’ of a good spouse to a self-giving, sacrificial, life-long committed marriage to that person? Does your attitude just switch magically when you exchange vows? I don’t think so… So, I think I’m missing something here. I’ve read plenty of Christopher West stuff, and it’s all fine and dandy for married couples, but nothing so far that I can see that pertains to how we’re to go about getting married to the ‘right’ person, be that Mr/Miss. Hand-picked-by-God, or one of a couple compatible people. Oh, and then there’s the fact that people who aren’t dating CAN’T give themselves to the other person until they’re married! They can’t have sex, they can’t live together or support each other financially, they can’t take care of each other, etc because that would be acting like they were married, which they aren’t. :banghead: So what are we supposed to do??? I’ve got a great list of what we can’t do, but nothing that we CAN do!

I do have a boyfriend right now, and we’re doing great together, and want to get married, but this has just been bothering me lately. x.x

 

[KCtheMommy]

Good question.

You failed to mention “maturity” though, and maturity can be completely elusive to people no matter how old they get. Maturity definitely draws the line in the sand of a person’s life where GIVING to another is more important than RECEIVING.

This DOES apply to marriage.

Face it: we live in a world of “ME ME ME” “I want, I need, I DESERVE, I DEMAND” right now. To avoid that thought-process and attitude when you enter a marriage really takes a alot of conversation and agreement between the two parties getting married. If your boyfriend is a selfish CAD you may consider telling him to “Shape up or ship out.” MEANWHILE, take a look at yourself and I mean a real hard look at yourself and decide just how selfish you are.

My marriage was a mess int he first few years due to the exact attitudes you are describing and I am mirroring back to you. It took the birth of our first child to slap us down into reality and a sense of giving. With her came charity, kindness, selflessness, and giving to each other. Sadly, if we had been MATURE enough to start off with we would have saved ourselves a lot of pain and anguish.

Also, finally, my dad gave me great advice on getting and BEING married. It was asked of a friend of his who is happily, and I do mean HAPPILY IN LOVE for over 20 years:

“My wife is my best friend in the whole world. There is nothing I wouldn’t do for her and nothing she wouldn’t do for me. I would not speak a bad word against her, to her face or behind her back. I certainyl won’t allow anyone else to belittle her either. She does the same for me. More marriages would last and be in a state of happiness if people viewed their spouses not only as the love of their lives, their passion – but their VERY BEST FRIEND.”

We took that advice and ran. Here we are married ten years later. Sure marriage is work. We can annoy each other. We even occassionaly hurt each other. We are human. But we also forgive. We celebrate our closeness more than racing to point out our differences.

So I think you’ll know your ready when you find the one that not only makes your heart beat faster just to see him, while simulataneously enjoy giving to him and receiving the same in kind. Maturity and selflessness…that’s the difference. The solution, and pretty much all you need to be successful in your marriage.

 

[lizaanne]

I will start by saying that I feel there is a very big difference in the terminology. Dating is just that - going out with someone you may or may not consider for marriage. No commitments, just “going out”. But courting is different. Courting is a frame of mind going into a relationship that says “if you are not someone I would ever consider for marriage I’m not even going to take you out, despite how attractive I might find you.” Because the entire purpose of courting is to find a spouse. Personally, I don’t feel that Catholic adults have any business “going out” with any other mindset. If you are just going out to have a good time but there will never ever be any furthering of the relationship then you are wasting each other’s time, because cohabitation is not an option.

So - now on to your question (I think). What to do? Well, you can spend time together doing things that enrich your relationship in your discernment for your vocation of marriage. Go for walks together, shopping, have dinner together, go to Adoration/Mass/Rosary, volunteer together, babysit together, write good old fashion letters to each other…there are more things that you CAN do that those you can’t. Don’t focus so much on the negative and be creative. If time together while unmarried starts to get stale, then don’t think that being married is going to fix that only because you can have sex and live together. This is the time to find out how to get past those dry periods and work on the keeping the relationship fresh - BEFORE the stress of children, bills, and other family commitments.

Sorry - I don’t guess this was much help to you. I’m not even sure I answered your question. But it’s my two pennies for what it’s worth I guess.

~Liza

 

[LittleRose]

I’m confused as to how one goes from the ‘check-list’ of a good spouse to a self-giving, sacrificial, life-long committed marriage to that person?

You need that checklist in the beginning to protect yourself from people to whom it is not safe to give of yourself the way one gives to a spouse.

Once the possibilities are narrowed down, I think it’s a question of the relationship building. This is probably why friendship is the basis of successful marriages. As you get to know the other person, and become more attached to him/her, you gradually begin to think less about how much you enjoy being around that person, and what you "need"and more about how much you want to give of yourself.

When I met my husband in college, I didn’t know I would marry him. I just knew he was a special person, that I liked being friends with him, and I wanted to spend time around him and get to know him better. The rest just gradually evolved, and eventually I realized that I trusted him with my very life, and that I could–if we married–also trust him with the lives of our children.

Oh, and then there’s the fact that people who aren’t dating CAN’T give themselves to the other person until they’re married!

I don’t think that’s true at all. You can’t give yourself sexually, but doesn’t mean there aren’t ways for you to take care of each other. I’d say my hubby took good care of me when we were dating, and I tried to do little things to take care of him.

During the first few years of our dating, my husband would often drive me places, because I didn’t have a car.

Before we started dating, he would sometimes walk me home from church to my dorm, even though it was in the complete opposite direction from his off-campus apartment, and meant a REALLY long walk home. I didn’t know just how long until months after he started doing this, when I found out exactly where he lived.

Our first phone conversation was 3 hours long. People can give of themselves in conversation.

His christmas/birthday/just because cards and gifts were (and continue to be) always thoughtful.

While we were in school together, sometimes he would surprise me by meeting me after my classes and spending time with me. (And I occasionally did the same for him.)

After I finished school, my job took me to another city. He drove four hours each way on several weekends so we could see each other–and go to mass together once in awhile. (That was probably the toughest part of being in a long-distance situation. We got used to going to mass together every week while we were in the same city, and then we weren’t able to do that when we were apart.)

You can invite each other over to where you live and cook each other meals. If one of you is sick, the other can visit. If one of you needs a hug, or someone to talk to, or a kind word, or even just a ride to the grocery store, or just an afternoon watching a silly movie, the other can provide it. You can go to mass together.

You can even take it one step further and take care of others together by volunteering someplace!

Any time you put aside your own convenience to do something for someone else, you are giving of yourself. I bet if you sat down and made a list, you could come up with at least a dozen or so sweet things your boyfriend does to take care of you, and I bet he could make a similar list about you too!

It’s important for couples to be able to take care of each other in ways like this. Though my DH does even bigger things to take care of me now that we are married (and I’m able to do more for him as well), those little things that started when we were dating are still a huge part of how we give of ourselves in our marriage.

Actually, I think it was getting in the habit of doing those “little things” that prepared me for the bigger things that come with “for better or worse, till death”.

 

[Jay2]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2818064&postcount=16
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2818024&postcount=25
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=187184

Coming from a guy that 20 or so years ago would’ve said “Hey! You want some fries with that shake baby!” and whose desire was usually for a meaningful one-night relationship (unless she was really “hot”, then go for twosies or a weekend… you can take my advise with a grain of salt… Now I’ve got kids (one of them a young woman) and I’m looking for answers too!

It took a happenstance meeting with an incredible woman to get through the concrete between my ears.

I “dated” her for about 6 months - why I didn’t know - she did NOT “fit the profile”… but I just couldn’t stay away. Then our “dating” became exclusive or you could say merged into “courtship”. The level of emotional bonds just increased somehow, and I asked her to marry me.
I had no clue of what true Catholic Marriage was. My family marital & spiritual history is a train-wreck. I just knew that this was the woman. She helped me with my faith & the Church and we celebrated our 19th this past September.

(She (years) later confided in me that I did not “fit” into ANY of her “lists”, and really couldn’t believe she married me, had kids, and built a life together! She admitted that she "saw something in me, and just knew I was a solid & true man…past transgressions be-damned… so much for “lists” in our case)

Listen to your heart, your mind, and your gut… they won’t lie to you.

 

[chevalier]

Okay, I’ve had a couple thoughts pertaining to people’s attitudes in dating/courtship (pick your favorite term for ‘two Catholic people of the opposite sex being in an exclusive relationship with the intention to discern if they are supposed to be married or not’, I’m not here to thrash vocabulary around) and in marriage.

So, we all have how marriage is supposed to be down pat: a husband and wife in a totally self-giving relationship, with their acts of love being open to new life. Not so easy to be totally self-giving in practice, I’m sure, but easy enough to define.

Now, back to what I’m going to call ‘dating’. There are plenty of different opinions on how one should or should not go about dating. And they all seem pretty darn selfish, when you get down to them.

You have a point there. I wouldn’t even say necessarily selfish, but I’m not sure where the idea that God picks our spouses comes from. I mean, since He loves us perfectly, He wants the best for us, but are we going to push human logic on God and from there infer He prefers us to marry one person rather than another, so mathematically there must be a favourite? That’s a bit like treating God as a philosophical construct or some entity, while He’s a person in an infinitely fuller sense than any of us. So what… preordination of spouses? Predestination? Err…

I’m confused as to how one goes from the ‘check-list’ of a good spouse to a self-giving, sacrificial, life-long committed marriage to that person?

Yup.

Does your attitude just switch magically when you exchange vows? I don’t think so…

Neither.

Oh, and then there’s the fact that people who aren’t dating CAN’T give themselves to the other person until they’re married! They can’t have sex, they can’t live together or support each other financially,

If I had a fiancee and she ran into economic problems while I had money, there’d be no can’ts.

they can’t take care of each other

Similarly, if she were to be sick in a hospital or down home, that sentence would only bounce off me.

Though they can’t take care of each other the way people who live together do.

Still, I’d much rather marry someone who cared than someone who fancied me and I once said I’d sooner marry an old friend than a new crush. For this very reason: someone who cares.

So what are we supposed to do???

Erm… Love and do what we want? Provided what we think love is love indeed?

I’ve got a great list of what we can’t do, but nothing that we CAN do!

Shall we start coming up with things then?

On a final note, call me a sucker, but I believe in bonds between people. The soulmate kind of feeling can be develop and I won’t claim it has no supernatural origin whatsoever, but what’s surely true is that it can form. Perhaps I’ve read too many novels, but it’s not like I’ve been reading 1830-ies stuff all my life as a guy, really. I’ve seen people guess each other’s thoughts, read minds, predict moves, I’ve seen people predict a phone call on a hunch, or a problem coming, or the kind of problem coming. And I’m not talking about only romantic relationships here, nope. In fact, some of those bonds can apparently make people know each other so much they’ll know they aren’t really good matches for a relationship and they’ll care enough for each other to admit that (which admittedly leads to some err… intensely educative moments). For me, it couldn’t be just an ad getting replied. Or a random match algorithm… Something would have to click and fall in place. Admittedly, intense bonds can form with the wrong people and that should be avoided. I’m much more careful with those things than when I was younger.

 

[Contarini]

pumpkinbeast,

I think the missing ingredient here is the concept of “vocation.” The question to ask is not “what will most fulfill me” but “is it my calling to marry, and to marry this person in particular?” Physical attraction, compatibility of interests, all of those things can be signs of your vocation. Also, opinions of family, friends, community are important (assuming that you have good Christian friends whose judgment you trust) in discerning your calling.

I’m making it sound cold-blooded, but it’s not. Hormones can be signs of God’s call as well–but they aren’t the only ones and they are very far from infallible!

Edwin

 

[Island_Oak]

…I’m confused as to how one goes from the ‘check-list’ of a good spouse to a self-giving, sacrificial, life-long committed marriage to that person? Does your attitude just switch magically when you exchange vows? I don’t think so… So, I think I’m missing something here…So what are we supposed to do??? I’ve got a great list of what we can’t do, but nothing that we CAN do!

Do you not find yourself gaining clues and answers to the nature of your boyfriend’s character in the everyday interactions you have? Aren’t you regularly in sitiuations which demand sacrifice, kindness, respect, patience, discretion, a sense of humor, responsibility, sensitivity, generosity, discipline? You don’t need to be living with someone or experiencing sexual intimacy with him to determine whether the daily conduct you observe reflects the values you expect in a spouse. This is not terribly complex, but it does require critical thinking and experience over time to learn this about another person. You make similar judgments about almost everyone you encounter–that’s why some folks stay merely acquaintances and others become good friends~because you see in them qualities you admire and appreciate and/or they bring out the best in you.

 

[pumpkinbeast]

Thank you all for your posts; you all make a number of great points that I will be considering for quite awhile…

By all means, keep them coming… I don’t really have anything else to say at this point; this seems to be an issue with no simple answers that I’m still thinking about.

EDIT: as for my frustration with what we can’t do, I think a lot of that stems from the fact that we’re long distance, which SEVERELY limits the amount of things we can do together.

ANOTHER EDIT: I was told by someone once that couples who are not yet married should not try to care for each other, by cooking meals for each other, etc, because they weren’t husband and wife yet, or something along those lines… I can see how that’s rather silly, but I guess it’s still niggling about at the back of my mind, furthering my general frustration.

 

[havemercy]

as for my frustration with what we can’t do, I think a lot of that stems from the fact that we’re long distance, which SEVERELY limits the amount of things we can do together.

That does a good job of explaining the situation. I don’t know what I’d do if I lived a city away from my sister (re: Canticles). I’d probably go crazy or something. If you have no money then that makes things somewhat more stressful. AH!

ANOTHER EDIT: I was told by someone once that couples who are not yet married should not try to care for each other, by cooking meals for each other, etc, because they weren’t husband and wife yet, or something along those lines… I can see how that’s rather silly, but I guess it’s still niggling about at the back of my mind, furthering my general frustration.

Now, it really depends on the nature of your relationship, or rather, where you both came from. My sister and I have been taking care of each other in prayer and substantially since we’ve known each other. Only this year have we actually began consciously discerning marriage. Methinks that if one of you is sick, it would be entirely appropriate for the other to make some chicken soup and provide some comfort by simply being there and smiling, joking around, watching the Princess Bride, etc.

Have you read this article?

A Catholic critique of a current notion of courtship

by Kathleen van Schaijik

When I was a freshman I went to a talk on dating, given on campus as part of a “Christian Formation” series. One of the things the speaker said was “Feelings don’t really matter. Feelings come and go. What matters is compatibility.” I’ve heard the same idea expressed many other times this way: “Love is not a feeling; it’s a decision.”

We’re in similar situations. Praying.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

I don’t think trying to choose a spouse wisely and prudently is selfish or self-centered. You want to fulfill your vocation as best you can, and if that vocation is to marriage, you have to try to find someone you can work with, helping each other reach heaven. It would be self-centered if rather than seeking someone that will join you in serving God you choose someone for frivolous, superficial, selfish reasons, not taking the vocation of marriage seriously.
The dating/courting period is one where many virtues can be worked on (a big one being chastity). Different parts of life will offer different opportunities to work on different virtues etc. You are right, you cannot give yourself to each other before marriage, because you are not each other’s yet! In marriage is where two become one, not in courting, not even the in the period of engagement. There is no dichotomy in attitude, you always want to do what is best, in whatever situation/stage you find yourself in life. In courting you want to discern whether you think this person could be the right one to marry and fulfill you vocation to marriage with (if it is your vocation). You do what you can in your situation, being prudent to avoid situations detrimental to your souls. There are plenty of good things you can do to improve spiritually while dating, life doesn’t begin after marriage. I think the period of courting and engagement is one where a lot of discerning needs to go on, you are preparing to make a binding commitment that will last till death do you part, this is a huge thing. You don’t need to act like a married couple to do this. You don’t need to act like a married couple to discuss the many different aspects of marriage and family life, your beliefs, etc.

Once you are married you act accordingly. It is then that you need to give yourselves to each other 100%. You have become one working towards a common goal. Before this you don’t have the sacrament or the graces that come with marriage to fulfill this. After that, when, if God wills, you become parents, you need to act accordingly. It is not a change of attitude, just a change of circumstances. Your attitude should always be the same, one of Love for God and others. That love will lead you to do different things at different moments. You need to focus on whatever stage in life you are at and do what needs to be done right then and there, wherever you find yourself, seeking God’s help to figure out what His will is for you.

 

[chevalier]

EDIT: as for my frustration with what we can’t do, I think a lot of that stems from the fact that we’re long distance, which SEVERELY limits the amount of things we can do together.

Auch. Sympathies. Been there, done that.

ANOTHER EDIT: I was told by someone once that couples who are not yet married should not try to care for each other, by cooking meals for each other, etc, because they weren’t husband and wife yet, or something along those lines… I can see how that’s rather silly, but I guess it’s still niggling about at the back of my mind, furthering my general frustration.

Eeek. I understand why people shouldn’t live together, but why shouldn’t a girl cook dinner for her guy or why shouldn’t he fix the tap or something for her? As always, the person had a bit of a point: the caring shouldn’t become some form of cohabitation and it shouldn’t deny the reality that the couple is not married. Of itself, the caring isn’t bad, however.