Dating dilemmas have tested my faith

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You’re in a terribly difficult situation.

I’m going to say something controversial. You might have to go down the wrong path a little bit to come to a deeper understanding of why it’s the wrong path. I’m saying this first because I know that’s how I myself learned, and I don’t think I could have learned any other way. Second, it seems to me that currently there’s a discrepancy between what you rationally know to be right, and what your feelings are telling you. You pretty much literally admit this when you write that you “want to be chaste until marriage, but out of fear of going to hell, not necessarily because I understand why on a practical level.”

Of course going down the wrong path is risky. You may end up hurt, or hurting someone else, and you might even end up in a situation you can’t easily get out of anymore even if you want to. But I can feel your frustration, and I don’t see you getting out of it without trying something. You’re absolutely right when you write that it’s difficult to navigate the dating world the way God intends, and I completely understand when you say you’re discouraged by the “societal norms of today”. Yet at the same time you reject the possibility that you might be called to celibacy, though personally I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s where you’re headed in the long run. See, the realization that what you’re looking for isn’t actually “out there” is in fact a good reason to choose celibacy. But you have to realize that completely, not only on a mental level but with your entire being.

If you do remain convinced that you want to have a woman by your side, then @Dacinom’s advice upthread is great. Give the Catholic women you’re dismissing as a little boring, another chance. The two-date minimum policy is great too. And I would add: don’t look for excitement, not on a first date and actually not even in marriage. Look for a subtle, stable, gentle rapport. But again: if “exciting” women still attract you (as I infer from your opening post), you might have to explore that and get burned a little – or a lot. As I said, I myself had to learn the hard way. Perhaps you have to as well.
 
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I truly hope it works out for you, but this doesn’t mean that knocking up a woman you barely knew was a good plan. Hopefully good comes out of it, but it’s, well, less than ideal.
 
Oh, yeah, he for sure is. People think that in order to go on a date with someone you need to be ready to marry them. Dating doesn’t have to be that serious.
 
Patagonia1 said:
On one level, I truly want to be chaste until marriage, but out of fear of going to hell, not necessarily because I understand “why” on a practical level.
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My advice would be to start here. If you don’t understand why it’s a good idea to avoid premarital sex, start reading more about those reasons from strong, reliable Catholic sources. Once you really start learning about it, with a mind that’s genuinely seeking to understand, it actually makes a ton of sense. And, once you understand why you should avoid premarital sex, it will turn into more of a “value” instead of an “obligation,” which may make it easier to endure. It’s easier to fight for something when you want to, rather than when you’re being forced to.

Beyond that, I would also suggest engaging your faith on a deeper level, independently of any concerns you have about finding a Catholic spouse. I’m not saying that your faith is weak as it is, just that faith is something that can always become deeper, no matter where we’re at with it right now. Going to Sunday Mass is great! But there are so many ways beyond that to grow in love of God, especially as a single layperson. Prioritizing your relationship with God should come before worries about romantic relationships – and I say this while admitting that it’s something I’ve had a hard time learning over the years, and in reality, I’m still learning.

After that, who knows? As your commitment to your current values deepens, you may find the Catholic women who share those values naturally more attractive. Or, you may not. I’m still single, so what do I know? (But I’m also on the other end of this dilemma, as a “boring” and “pessimistic” Catholic woman, haha 😅) Either way, you’ll be on the right path for your own life independent of any romantic entanglements.
 
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Ah no problems, I have no stresses, lol sorry i didn’t mean it to come off as complaining. It’s more of an observation. Always appreciate a few prayers though.
As a guy though something I do think about is going out for a second time or more if I’m not sure about someone. I think you have to be responsible as some people can get attached quickly. If I’m pretty sure you’re not as interested in them as they already are in you then I don’t think it’s a good idea to keep dating if it’s going to hurt them more later on if it ends. Just been my experience. Anyway didn’t want to distract from the OP. 👍
 
TheLittleLady said:
Best advice, get rid if this “soul mate” idea. It is not Catholic, it denies free will, how cruel it would be for God to have only ONE person out there with whom we can live the vocation of marriage.
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God does have a plan for you. One definition of sin is stepping away from that plan. So if you really kept with the plan and from sin that plan would (might) entail a person for you. Then the dilemma of (sin) both making it work starts…So yeah, I’ve met plenty of lifelong cahtolic couples and I’d say their match was made in heaven.
 
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Patagonia1 said:
On another level I feel like it is a de-facto requirement to engage in sexual behavior since it is what the vast majority of women today require. If I find a soul-mate/wife, even though we engage in pre-marital sexual behavior but still get married, is that union still not good in the eyes of God? It is as if I have two options: either be 100% chaste and do not get married, or do not be chaste and find my soul-mate.
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This is the way I went about it: I have my principles. More importantly than being my principles, they are, in this case, laws ordained by God. They are the infallible cosmic justice that can’t possibly be wrong and is illogical to dissent from. It’s the right thing to do. I will not be swayed away from doing the right thing by women’s ‘requirements’, and I will not give in to blackmail. I am allowed to take the luxury of remaining unmarried rather than agreeing to engage in premarital sex. This is my preference. I’m allowed to reach for it, claim it. Who’s there to stop me?

This goes even further. A lot of women, even some of the Catholic women who intend to uphold premarital abstinence, intentionally introduce sexual innuendo into conversations. This means allusions to sex or nudity and is done to test the man’s reactions. The goal of the test is to see whether the man desires them — and if they conclude he doesn’t because his word isn’t enough and they aren’t seeing proof — they will friendzone him. Alternatively, it is to confirm that the man is interested in sex, his libido isn’t low, he isn’t going to be boring in bed, etc. etc. I’m not making this up, and I didn’t fall on my head either, I have it from women. So the dilemma is: do I consciously, intentionally, knowingly, pick up on that innuendo and give the girl the reaction she wants in order to pass her test, or do I not, which means I will get friendzoned (the friendzone typically follows within minutes after you fail to react after a girl has been bringing attention to her assets or dropping hints about you and her doing something or else). And I say, **** that, I’m not going to cave in! The test is immoral and disordered for a Catholic to apply. And for a non-Catholic I’m still not going to conform anyway.

And the same goes for indecent dancing, sexual jokes and anything else. I’m not going to take part, and I’m not going to pretend it’s okay, and I’m not going to date a woman who does that either. Because I have a choice too. Not only a yes/no choice allowing me to withdraw instead of participating, I even have a right, just as much as a woman, to have my own standards. There are some behaviours that aren’t even sex but I’ll still die single before tolerating them in a prospective wife.
 
This is like war; it’s only natural you aren’t going to emerge unscathed, you’re going to take some damage, have some ribs broken, loose some teeth, some blood. It happens. At least here we don’t lose actual body parts. It’s not like you or I are going to get a special authorization to become strong Catholic men who impose the Catholic standard on the world by force of example and authority and of just not putting up with nonsense. But we also don’t need any. We’re already allowed (even required, by the way) to be just that. Being a Catholic doesn’t mean being a beta who does something he disagrees with just because a woman expect it. Have your own expectations of women and let them deal with them.
 
I feel your struggle on the being lonely regard. I use to be there and it is very hard to find a good Catholic woman while in our 30’s. I converted when I was about 27 in my heart. I often found myself being the youngest person at daily Mass (when I attended) and rarely ever saw women my age alone at Mass. They were with their boyfriend or husbands.

I felt envy for the young Catholics. I would see literally dozens of cute young Catholic girls at youth Masses (way too young for me) and I would think “They have so many girls around them to be able to become friends with and ask out” I did not feel I had the same opportunities. But no use in complaining about it because it would do no good. I had to do something.

I joined Catholicmatch. I went on dates. Lots led to nothing. Some women I interacted with and went out with led to rejection and heart break. But I did not give up. I started talking to a woman. She joined Catholicmatch because she was curious if there were any good Catholic men out there. She literally knew none that were young. She dated protestants and all of them tried to have pre marital relations with her. We began talking. She just broke up with her fiance a month earlier. She realized she was not ready to date but we keep talking to each other. We became friends. I continued to date other women, none working out and none became my girlfriend though. I was frustrated and sometimes it did challenge my faith. A year and a few months later she was ready to date again and we went out on a date. Now just shy of two years later we are getting married in January.

The point is it took me years of looking, I am 34 now and it took one woman who joined cm wondering where all the good Catholic men were. I was on that site for about 3 1/2 years actively before this woman became my girlfriend. It tested my patience but I could not find single Catholic women in real life. I did not know how to find young catholic groups with women my age. I since learned how because a app now exists that lists all the groups in my diocese but it did not exist back then. These groups were like secrets that you could only find by stumbling across it or by word of mouth.

I would highly recommend Catholicmatch if you want to cut through wondering if a woman is a devout Catholic or not. Not all on the site are but depending on where you live you could literally have hundreds of women to message and ask out. Chances are at least a few will like you. I think I met like 7 or 8 women from that site in the period of 5 years or so. Not a lot but it was better than nothing. I would estimate I was only actually active for about 3 1/2 years on the site.

Good luck man. I know dating is rough. God bless.
 
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As for those ‘pessimistic and boring women’, they are just as pessimistic as you are (or I am), precisely because of the nonsense we have to put up with daily. They are just as much discouraged or annoyed by the world as you are, and it is quite virtuous of them to be so. Give them some time to unwind, and I’m pretty sure you don’t always excel at first dates either. 🙂 I certainly don’t. 🙂 And it’s fine, we don’t have to. Those girls don’t either. Get to know them.

If you confirm that, while being admirably Catholic, they are in fact pessimistic to the point of self-destructing on relationships or time together, as is sometimes the case, or too passive, or with no subjects to converse about or intention of having a meaningful conversation, then by all means look for a different girl.

And being 30, which means your dates have remained single for quite a long time, generally expect them to be at least a little socially awkward. They don’t have to be, but it’s statistically quite probable. Reasons for the situation vary, but lack of skill with first dates (which is not an important skill in a wife) or making new acquaintances and breaking the ice (which is not an important skill in a wife either, as long as you do break the ice between the two of you) tends to be a frequent cause. Introverts tend to frequently have that problem, and introverts are rarely actually boring. And awkwardness is nothing to be concerned about, per se.

I’ll write a little more tomorrow.
 
adgloriam said:
One definition of sin is stepping away from that plan
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Sin is rejection of God and opposition to him (ccc 386).

God laid out His plan for each of us, that is to spend eternity in heaven with him. God gave us rational minds and free will.
 
TheLittleLady said:
Friend, you need to listen to different women. To women who are mature and women of substance.
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… Married women. 😉

See, the point is, people who continue to be single at the ripe age of 30 and beyond, myself (at 35), tend to be so for a reason. And that reason tends to be a combination of factors both inside and outside their control, of course largely involving maturity one way or the other (typically immature outlooks, e.g. some parts of personality haven’t caught up since puberty, or some serious insecurities typically relating to childhood/adolescence traumas). The single women I mentioned are single precisely because of their issues, just like I am because of mine. I want to stress that the behavioural mechanism I described is largely subconscious and that it’s not female-specific, men do that too; I referenced women because I don’t date men and neither does the OP. 😉 People put forward sexual signals to see if they are going to get a positive sexual response, a ‘match’ as they see it. Failing that, they give up and fall in ‘auto-reject’ mode, which means they will reject you because they are already feeling rejected by you. ‘Hell knows no fury like a woman scorned,’ very much applies here, although the individual, rather than fury, is more likely to feel some form or shame, rejection, etc. Hence she — or he — proceeds toward ego-saving damage-control measures such as pre-emptively declaring ‘let’s just be friends’.
 
Okay, OP, one more thing about dating Catholic women — just because they go on a first or second date with you, don’t presume you’re the only one being quite seriously selective. 😉

The question that was put to you in this threat in a relatively mild fashion — what do you actually put in the table — is going to pop up quite a lot, in various indirect forms, and sometimes much more direct than here and far less well-intentioned. Here, it was to help you understand and grow; in dating situations… not remotely quite. This is going to rise geometrically the moment you focus your attention on, shall we say, Instagram queens or the Catholic counterpart thereof, however watered down compared to the secular version. Awareness of their beauty and the effect of it on men, as well as social fitness and competence, has the potential to make women what we could charitably describe as ‘quite demanding’ or ‘ambitious in their choice of a mate’.

Luckily for you, working on one’s good looks, good salary and other such vanitates vanitatum that are unfortunate necessities in human mating is generally easier for a man than for a woman. Or rather it’s not easy, but it’s doable given for example that you commit time and effort to the gym, your diet, your studies, your KPIs/assessment/promotion criteria at work. But just as men pay a disproportionate amount of attention to a woman’s good looks (typically subsonciously related to her perceived fertility and not quite solely aesthetically based), which women justifiably regard as superficial, women will pay a disproportionate amount of attention to a man’s social position and social fitness. And such things as masculine looks and mannerisms and all the paraphernalia that actual men (versus women who judge masculinity) don’t consider to be a very important, let alone central part of being male. We are the experts, they are the layfolk. Just like a professional being judged by a customer, we should resist the urge to automatically ‘inherit’ their expressed points of view as our own or as objectively true, but we also need to understand that, being layfolks, they need to rely on superficial ways of judging the ‘pros’ as they have little access to better methods or criteria. This is indeed similar to customer service.
 
The good thing is that if you work on your masculine look and bearing and your ability to support a family, your attractiveness among women of all traditional and conservative descriptions will soar. If you develop your conversation, relationship and otherwise social skills, doing so will only help. And also the skills you develop and use at work or in some form of public service (from charity to elected office), such as management, organization, crisis management, command, etc., etc., all will be valued by such women, in an extreme degree, and make your life easier. And because morality plays a part among Catholics and because even while being conservative per the world’s standards we still have a code that promotes empathy and sacrifice, your ‘softer’ side may actually be appreciated and not only your hard skills and strength, commanding air, etc. So you aren’t in a bad place.

‘The trick’ for you would be to avoid choosing overambitious or exceedingly superficial women to associate with (you positively need some association with them in order to learn their ways of being so you can tell them apart, but you don’t want to expose yourself too much to the temptation of having a relationship with one of them), so that her sense of entitlement and expectation won’t keep growing until it squeezes all juice out of you and leaves you dry. The more you have of those attractive traits, the less temptation she will feel to leave you or cheat on you, to flirt with or fantasize about other men, something women have a distressing tendency to justify by their man’s insufficient quality in their eyes, which from their perspective does not look nearly as immoral as it does in a man’s eyes. Investing in those areas is basically your insurance policy, but it will, of course, make it easier for you to begin and develop interactions with women and opportunities to begin an acquaintance or relationship.

And don’t be too harsh. Just like good and worth men can be quite silly about a woman’s good looks or something else like that, we should be understanding of women and their antics when it comes to male alphaness and the fact they tend to aim for leaders and exceptional men, even if they — because of e.g. Christian value system and hierarchy — eschew outright going for money or status. (And, for the record, men are quite capable of getting attracted to status or material comfort as well.)

But still develop your screening and sieving skills as you progress on your path of making yourself a quality male. Be generous and slow to judge, but do know and remember your standards. And don’t be discouraged when you’re challenged or even outright judged. You’ll need to develop some intellectual, mental and spiritual and even emotional independence from that, and the ability to distance yourself from it, if you’re going to hang out in the Darwinistic place known as the dating marketplace. As a side effect, that kind of independence and distance and the ability to project your own frame, instead of accepting someone else’s as granted, will make you all the more attractive, so you’ll be killing two birds with one stone.
 
You generally kill a lot of birds with one stone by just growing as a man. The ladies may not like what I’m going to say, but when you do that, there isn’t even much of a need to chase women; they will seek you out and come to you in quite large numbers. Hence, chasing girls is quite pointless or at the very least suboptimal in the long term (and the short term largely too).

This is basically like marketing. These days some of it, increasingly and distressingly more and more of it, is necessary. But a great product with average marketing will fare better in the long term than vice versa. Marriage is, of course, pretty much the definition of long term. Hence one shouldn’t even focus much on getting a girl’s attention or getting her to agree to a date, a relationship, engagement, wedding, etc., but on rather on one’s ability to keep her continually impressed and satisfied. And that is easier to do using ‘man hard skills’ than ‘man soft skills’, however necessary the latter may be.

Bottom line: Work on yourself and your circumstances and your husband and father potential and don’t fret. Girls are quite the hunters. They, themselves, in their own best interest, won’t let you waste away once they sense opportunity. Just make sure, which is your be or not be, that you only wife up one that at least consciously won’t continue looking out for her best opportunity when she’s already said her vows to you. This is an extremely important skill in a man, crucial to not wasting your life. And crucial to not allowing yourself to go to waste with a superficial woman who leaves destruction in her wake, whereas you could be useful to a good, reasonable woman who needs a decent husband and father for her children. You, yourself, need a good, reasonable mother for your children and owe it to your children to choose her well in the light of your responsibility for them, even before they are born.
 
Personally, I make a point of only getting involved in relationships with women who are quite clearly truthful and sincere, have a sense of morality, justice, fair play and so on and feel motivated to put objective morality before subjective comfort, best interest, material or opportunistic concerns. It is even better if they follow something close to a male-style code of conduct that puts a great emphasis on keeping one’s word, not deceiving others, not quitting on one’s commitments, not using insincerity/simulation/dissimulation/manipulation to further one’s goals, etc. And ones that have a confirmed ability to experience compassion and empathy and control their ambitions. If I sense a tendency to look out for number one, be opportunistic, put herself first, have a hugely disportionate focus on comfort, money or status. (A slightly disporportionate focus on at least one of these tends to be frequent among us all; don’t know about you, but I could certainly find some in the mirror.) I encourage you to do the same.

On the other hand, I make a point of realizing the fact that good, reasonable women with worthwhile interests may lack certain superficial charms, which is only a good thing in the long run if you think more about it. There is still a lot of charm to be found in them, and the superficial aspects, however pleasant, are ultimately of very trivial importance, which men eventually realize as they grow up (according to women, we grow up until 13 years of age, after which point we continue only to grow ;)). I encourage you to do the same and ‘organically’, in a gradual and reasonable way get over the tiny little seductive things that we may be used to after hanging out with all the Instagram queens that ‘good’ women may not know or care to do (which is ultimately a good thing). Basically, everything is connected, and one can’t have the cake and eat it too. We have to choose. So do women. Everybody does. Life is about choosing.
 
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