Dating is hard...

[Epistemes]

…and I’m not sure I want to go through it.

This past Friday night I chatted online briefly with an old high school crush, with whom I’ve had a tenuous on/off again, why-can’t-we-date relationship since about 2005. She’s like some sort of forbidden fruit, always beyond my grasp. Well, during the chatting, we decided to meet for drinks. It was such an informal set-up that I’m still having a hard time deciding if it was/wasn’t a date, though it definitely smelled strongly of “let’s see what happens.” We didn’t have a blast, but I didn’t find it particularly boring either. It was nice to be with a girl since it’s been a long, long, long time since I’ve had the chance to go on a “date.”

The emotions which have been involved after the fact, though, can drive a person mad. And I absolutely despise the “rubrics” of dating and interacting with the opposite sex. In a way, it feels like a labyrinth with eggshell floors and glass ceilings. It doesn’t help a person’s integrity when “liking a girl” must mean putting on the Ritz: why can’t I just wear my blue jeans and a t-shirt and engage you in modest conversation, perhaps buying you a couple drinks or something to snack on? This is what you’re getting, in the end. It’s not that I don’t think more of you, but I don’t want to build up false images and pretences. My liking you has nothing to do with what I wear or don’t wear, wear I take you to dine, but the simple fact that I want to be with you and have a good time.

I don’t know what’ll happen with this girl. I’m going to call on Thursday and ask her to the movies. I don’t expect her to answer the phone or reply to her voicemail, and while that will hurt, maybe it’s just as well – not because I don’t like her, because I always have, but the emotion and the drama just kills me.

 

[whatevergirl]

*Hi Epistemes

Personally, if it clicks, if it is somewhat whimsical and effortless, then the drama ceases to exist. I think if you are going after women who are ‘out of reach’ or who you seem to have no chemistry with…that could be why you’re experiencing drama and the roller coaster rides. Sometimes, guys like the thrill of chasing a challenge, but if you don’t want to chase a challenge, then find people that you click with, on that FIRST date. It is possible to know after a first date, if you/she want to continue to another date, and so on. And if you want a more low maintenance type of dating experience, you need to pursue women who are in that category. Who don’t ‘need’ the frills and so forth, that maybe other women might like. If you pursue women who carry Coach bags, and wear the finest jewelry, there might be a slight chance, that they will have high expectations, of a man spending oodles of cash on them, when dating. They are entitled to like what they like, but that doesn’t mean that type of woman is for you. So, maybe just reflect on who you’d like to spend time with, formulate in your mind what a ‘close to perfect’ date might be, and then journey out. You don’t have to change who you are, to impress someone…if you do, that isn’t the right woman for you, look at it like that.

I hope things get better for you. Just my two cents. *

 

[Sierrah]

Yes, your title is great. I’ve always found it more often to be hard rather then enjoyable. Now that I’m seeing someone really nice I’m finally finding it enjoyable for once.

 

[MercyMia]

If it makes you feel any better…I do not think that the casual expectations you have laid out here are unreasonable at all. Men shouldn’t be expected to whip out the 4 course meal with champagne and lobster every time they just want to spend time with a girl. I think coffee or a drink is an excellent first “date.” As long as you are being courteous and respectful (which you obviously are) you should not have to worry about putting on a persona, a quality girl won’t appreciate the pretense anyways and be turned off, making it self-defeating. If this girl seems unattainable for some reason, that might be a warning sign. She may just enjoy playing hard to get based on insecurities she has and that may be heartache for you or any poor guy that tries to sincerely give her affection. If you are running into this problem often…maybe try persuing a different type of girl. I do not know how this girl is, so I will speak in general and not just to you now: sometimes you have to go for the girl who isn’t the stunner in the crowd, the girl who isn’t so desenitized by constant attention from guys.

 

[johngh]

When it comes to relationships, I am of the perspective of no funny business allowed. People allow way too much drama to occur in relationships, and it makes it no wonder that the divorce rate is so high and there are so many people in bad relationships.

The way I see it, either you like the person or you don’t. Either you want to be with them or you don’t. I understand that emotions can be more wishy washy than that, but for the practical purposes of being in a relationship, you have to pick one. I have always had a very simple approach to dating. You ask someone on a date (preferablly someone you know you already like for the most part), go on a date. If it goes well, you go on another. Within a few weeks you should know if you want to be with this person. All this year later off and on nonsense is just ridiculous. If you want to be with the other person, than be with them. Otherwise, it is nothing but a waste of time and energy.

 

[1ke]

…and I’m not sure I want to go through it.

This past Friday night I chatted online briefly with an old high school crush, with whom I’ve had a tenuous on/off again, why-can’t-we-date relationship since about 2005. She’s like some sort of forbidden fruit, always beyond my grasp. Well, during the chatting, we decided to meet for drinks. It was such an informal set-up that I’m still having a hard time deciding if it was/wasn’t a date, though it definitely smelled strongly of “let’s see what happens.” We didn’t have a blast, but I didn’t find it particularly boring either. It was nice to be with a girl since it’s been a long, long, long time since I’ve had the chance to go on a “date.”

This is not dating. This is unrequieted “love.” It is you still crushing on a girl and thinking that going out for drinks spontaneously b/c she had nothing better to do is sort of a date. It’s not. It’s her not having other plans. And you wanting to make something happen.

Move on. Stop interacting with this girl. It’s not going to change. It wasn’t a date.

The emotions which have been involved after the fact, though, can drive a person mad.

That’s because it wasn’t a date. It’s you still having a crush on this girl and hoping for something. That is what drives you mad.

And I absolutely despise the “rubrics” of dating and interacting with the opposite sex. In a way, it feels like a labyrinth with eggshell floors and glass ceilings. It doesn’t help a person’s integrity when “liking a girl” must mean putting on the Ritz: why can’t I just wear my blue jeans and a t-shirt and engage you in modest conversation, perhaps buying you a couple drinks or something to snack on? This is what you’re getting, in the end. It’s not that I don’t think more of you, but I don’t want to build up false images and pretences. My liking you has nothing to do with what I wear or don’t wear, wear I take you to dine, but the simple fact that I want to be with you and have a good time.

There are no such rubrics. Wear what you want, go where you want, do what you want. A girl who is interested in you will not care.

I don’t know what’ll happen with this girl. I’m going to call on Thursday and ask her to the movies.

Nothing will happen with this girl, except you will continue to ask her to do things, and she’ll continue to go as long as she doesn’t have anything better to do. And, if she does have something better to do, she’ll turn you down or not respond to you. This is not a friendship and it’s not a date. It’s a one-sided relationship: you trying to get her to like you.

I don’t expect her to answer the phone or reply to her voicemail, and while that will hurt, maybe it’s just as well – not because I don’t like her, because I always have, but the emotion and the drama just kills me.

It’s drama you are creating. Stop creating it and there will be no drama.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

When you are with the person you belong with, there is no big drama or insecurity. There is simple joy. The joy of discovering who that person is. Their joy in seeing you and getting to spend time with you. Your joy in feeling valued.

Joy = the one emotion Satan cannot replicate in our hearts and minds.

It’s missing here. Lose her number.

You’re not dating her. You’re running after a schoolboy fantasy of who you think she is or want her to be. Not the real her.

If she really wanted to date you, 4 years later you’d be making wedding plans or already married. She would have reciprocated your interest that much.

When a woman is really interested, she’ll be sure to let you know! First thing being when you call, she’s sitting there right by the phone and picks it up before the second ring hoping it’s you.

 

[Epistemes]

This is not dating. This is unrequieted “love.” It is you still crushing on a girl and thinking that going out for drinks spontaneously b/c she had nothing better to do is sort of a date. It’s not. It’s her not having other plans. And you wanting to make something happen.

Move on. Stop interacting with this girl. It’s not going to change. It wasn’t a date.

That’s because it wasn’t a date. It’s you still having a crush on this girl and hoping for something. That is what drives you mad.

There are no such rubrics. Wear what you want, go where you want, do what you want. A girl who is interested in you will not care.

Nothing will happen with this girl, except you will continue to ask her to do things, and she’ll continue to go as long as she doesn’t have anything better to do. And, if she does have something better to do, she’ll turn you down or not respond to you. This is not a friendship and it’s not a date. It’s a one-sided relationship: you trying to get her to like you.

It’s drama you are creating. Stop creating it and there will be no drama.

I’m glad you said all of this as it was a sneaking suspicion of mine. I definitely agree.

 

[kib]

Dating is easy when you find someone you are compatible with! Consider yourself lucky, now you can move on with your life and look for someone who reciprocates your feelings. I know it is much easier said than done, but if this girl liked you, you would have been a couple long ago. Honestly, it sounds like she is playing you. I have been in your shoes, unfortunately no one had the guts to tell me to get a real life and call the relationship what it really was… not a relationship! Six months after I came to my senses I started dating my current girlfriend. Fast forward three years later- she and I are still together!

I hope things get better for you, friend. Think things over!

 

[MtnDwellar]

Ok - here is what I have learned. It took me a long time and I think that some people never get it. Before you can have a relationship with someone, you must be completely content with yourself - alone. If you do not place a need on having a relationship, then there is no labyrinth to walk. You will simply be yourself because you put yourself under no pressure of trying to “get” something that you don’t have. Once you have achieved this internal satisfaction, people are drawn to you.

How do you do it? It is all about ego. Ego = the self. As long you are looking for what you can get from a relationship, ie companionship, closeness, fun, sex, pride, etc., you are moving God out of the way. Remember, love is never selfish. It is only after you remove your selfish considerations that love is possible.

 

[Luke_K]

Ok - here is what I have learned. It took me a long time and I think that some people never get it. Before you can have a relationship with someone, you must be completely content with yourself - alone. If you do not place a need on having a relationship, then there is no labyrinth to walk. You will simply be yourself because you put yourself under no pressure of trying to “get” something that you don’t have. Once you have achieved this internal satisfaction, people are drawn to you.

How do you do it? It is all about ego. Ego = the self. As long you are looking for what you can get from a relationship, ie companionship, closeness, fun, sex, pride, etc., you are moving God out of the way. Remember, love is never selfish. It is only after you remove your selfish considerations that love is possible.

What a wonderful post. Thank you for this insight!

 

[leonie]

I’ve got no advice, Epistemes, I didn’t date much before I met my dh. But, your post makes glad I don’t have to date!!!

I’ll send up a prayer today for you to meet your God-chosen spouse. And, I’ll also pray that the courting of her is so effortless, you don’t even know you are dating!

God bless.

 

[chevalier]

When a woman is really interested, she’ll be sure to let you know! First thing being when you call, she’s sitting there right by the phone and picks it up before the second ring hoping it’s you.

Or she will wait out two or three rings not wanting to seem eager. It doesn’t always work the same way. To be honest, out of my 40 or so failures, I can think of only one case of a young lady being prepared to give such feedback. She was very subtle and tactful at it. It went like, “So I thought I would phone you, doctor,” “Yes, I have just moved to a quieter room so we could talk, counsel” (yes, we were using honorifics). Unfortunately, she was pro-choice.

In almost all other cases, it was rather my perception, such as a girl replying to her mother on the phone, “…I am with [first name]”, first name being pronounced in a keyword way, meaning they must have talked about me before (and not just once). You generally get to rely on signals most of the time. Read a book or two on non-verbal communication, maybe something on communication in general (and if you manage to find something specifically about vocal or verbal aspects of it, then all the better), then you’ll know what to look for and your intuition will take over in practice anyway. Or just attune yourself and look and listen.

As for the girl you’re talking about (“you” has meant Epistemes for a while, not Liberanos ), it does look precisely like you describe, i.e. a “why can’t we date” relationship. That’s no relationship to be in. Sure, it sometimes makes people open their eyes but you’re probably better off looking for a girl that really likes you instead of needing to concede. That’s what I’ve decided to do. I can pull off a lot of charm (I can win elections without trying), but why not reserve it for someone who actually returns my interest in a natural way? Why not extend my feelings to a girl that likes me spontaneously instead of battling for the affections of someone who, to my grief, generally fails to exhibit mere politeness, let alone kindness, in mutual contact with someone she isn’t immediately attracted to, and needs a push? It would actually be unfair towards the potential girl that might be interested… and probably towards good, kind, polite girls as a class, in some abstract way (yes, I know, I’ve lost you).

In your case, obviously, I don’t have any data on how she treats you in terms of replying to your messages, degree of politeness in declining your offers, how she goes about cancelling arrangements she’s made with you (without word, with a laconic comment, with explanation and apology, or never cancels them). Thus I can’t comment on this aspect of things, though I suggest you do take it into consideration. What I can say is she obviously isn’t all that into you… and I’m not sure you’re all that into her, in terms of personality, getting along etc. (you may say you love her, but do you like her?). If you want to, give her a chance, talk it over with her, be yourself and not what you think you should act like (you can find a girl that likes the real you only if you are the real you). If not, then just look for a girl that likes you. If you seem to attract a type of girl you don’t like, then you need to adjust the signals you send (by sending signals that speak about the real you, preferably). Quit pretending, it’s not worth it. By the way, women like men who are relaxed and confident at the same time and that’s just the attitude you have when you don’t pretend anything.

 

[chevalier]

Eh, maybe one more thing. What I said above is another reason not to chase la belle dame sans merci. Find a girl who can warm up to you.

 

[HouseArrest]

“This is what you’re getting, in the end.”

This part made me laugh. The whole post was honest and witty. Someone will definitely appreciate your point of view - don’t waste it on someone who doesn’t.

I would suggest meeting with groups of people and going out - men and women - that way you can see if you like someone enough to date without the constant nagging in the back of your mind… “we’re on a date… I wonder if she likes me… do I like her… what if, what if, what if…”

Just a thought. I didn’t like “dating” either.

 

[Epistemes]

Well, I went out with this girl again last night. We scheduled another “date” for drinks late last night. And, in my socially retarded opinion, things went really, really well. We had a great time talking about everything from dog shampoo to the genius of de Kooning. She’s been to Rome and Assisi, which earned her my undying envy and affinity! You could tell that we got to be really comfortable with one another through body language…and the flirting. We were going to dance at this one place we really enjoyed, but it was 2 AM and they were closing so we walked back to her car where we talked even more, and I put my arm around her waist a couple of times and met with no resistance. We mostly tried to hammer out whether or not she’d go to a movie with me this weekend, looking quite deeply into one another’s eyes. I knew that was my signal, so we hugged one more time and I kissed her on the cheek. I also knew that the affection was accepted as she honked at me as she drove by.

I wonder what all of this means. I do worry that, like 1ke says above, if she isn’t just being opportunistic, and accepted my flirting simply because there was nothing else to do.

Girls are so hard to read. It was a great night, and I really, really hope we can do something again.

 

[Bataar]

Just be thankful you don’t have anything like Asperger’s to deal with. It makes dating exponentially harder.

 

[chevalier]

Well, I went out with this girl again last night. We scheduled another “date” for drinks late last night. And, in my socially retarded opinion, things went really, really well. We had a great time talking about everything from dog shampoo to the genius of de Kooning. She’s been to Rome and Assisi, which earned her my undying envy and affinity! You could tell that we got to be really comfortable with one another through body language…and the flirting. We were going to dance at this one place we really enjoyed, but it was 2 AM and they were closing so we walked back to her car where we talked even more, and I put my arm around her waist a couple of times and met with no resistance. We mostly tried to hammer out whether or not she’d go to a movie with me this weekend, looking quite deeply into one another’s eyes. I knew that was my signal, so we hugged one more time and I kissed her on the cheek. I also knew that the affection was accepted as she honked at me as she drove by.

I was going to ask what’s hard about that until I saw the following lines:

I wonder what all of this means. I do worry that, like 1ke says above, if she isn’t just being opportunistic, and accepted my flirting simply because there was nothing else to do.

Girls are so hard to read. It was a great night, and I really, really hope we can do something again.

So I have to say you’re a fighter. You read the body language, you actually pay attention, you know how to look for signs and can consciously interpret responses, so eerr… that’s about it! The rest is being a virtuous and loving person.

As for your situation, though, well… It looks like a girl enjoying her time and possibly wanting to take things slowly and enjoying her time and did I say enjoying her time? So enjoy your time with her and see what happens. Don’t rush it. Meetings like that one allow you to know each other better and to become more comfortable around each other. It doesn’t go as easily when already in a relationship and feeling all the pressures, I think. Give her time and give it to yourself too. For the record, friends sometimes behave like that, but it’s rare, especially when you’re older than 22, 23 years. So yes, she’s behaving like there is something there, but you don’t have a legal claim, so you might as well enjoy the time.