Dating versus friendship?

[CompSciGuy]

Hi

So I’m 24 and I’ve never dated before, partly because I didn’t really even care to date or have any interest in dating until a couple of years ago, and also because I find the whole business very confusing.

I think maybe this is just something to do with my generation, I am not sure, but I think the main thing is, I can’t tell the difference between when a guy and a girl are just friends, and when a guy and a girl are dating. Aside from the hand holding, etc. I can’t see any substantial difference… the line between the two seems very vague. And I think that part of the reason I can’t tell the difference is that I’ve never been there before. I have female friends but I don’t really get close with them like I do with male friends, since, in my opinion, guys and girls bond differently, and I think if I became very close friends with someone of the opposite sex then I would probably start to like them.

The whole idea of dating, asking a girl on a date, etc. seems very unnatural to me and kind of scary. I’ve done it once before and she said yes but nothing came of it in the end; I sensed that I had perhaps asked too soon. I have been very attracted to specific female friends in the past but would often explain it away, for example, we’re not good enough friends yet, or we’re about to part ways in life, etc. I don’t know if all my rationalization was justified or was based on fear, etc.

I wonder if I’m just confused, clueless, or maybe I have nothing to worry about and am just overthinking things.

 

[twoangels]

You’re confusion is well founded because our culture has really abandoned the courtship process whether it was through dating or calling on a young lady. There are plenty of good Catholic and Christian books about how to date, whether to date and how to choose a spouse. They have a lot of good ideas, but I often found them impractical to follow. People just didn’t expect to pursue romantic interests the way the books described and it caused a lot of communication problems.

Ultimately our culture has no process anymore. What most of our culture wants is to fall in love. As such, most people just seem to go with gut feelings. They flirt with people they find an interest with, they get to know people. They go on blind dates or use online sites or speed dating to try to find a spark to build. It then starts building and it becomes about comfort levels. Do you feel like being exclusive? How committed are you comfortable being? Both individuals sort of just feel it out. Eventually they might exchange keys or move in together.

The problem of course is that romantic love pursued this way is simply the old pattern of pursuing an adulterous relationship. The decision to marry for love was a decision to take this compelling feeling of erotic love experienced when you weren’t married (and thus not committing adultery) to motivate you to marry. Romantic stories started displaying this experience as creating better relationships.

For a time, our culture set a series of rules of allowing the couple to fall in love prior to marry while keeping strict guidelines about interaction and discerning marriage. It kept the line between dating/courtship and marriage clear. But our culture has broken down those traditions. Thus we are left with little more than a rule to not fornicate while a culture telling us to follow our heart and to marry for love. The thing is, without a structured courtship process, romantic love becomes merely a temptation to sin.

This is a really good article about the problem in our culture: boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001154.cfm

Another good book by the same author is “Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar.” It gives you some good information to really contemplate.

 

[Havard]

I say don’t sweat it. Keep getting to know women as friends, and keep things lighthearted. They will naturally develop, and when you get to that point, feel free to ask for advice if you feel you need it.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

You’re confusion is well founded because our culture has really abandoned the courtship process whether it was through dating or calling on a young lady. There are plenty of good Catholic and Christian books about how to date, whether to date and how to choose a spouse. They have a lot of good ideas, but I often found them impractical to follow. People just didn’t expect to pursue romantic interests the way the books described and it caused a lot of communication problems.

Ultimately our culture has no process anymore. What most of our culture wants is to fall in love. As such, most people just seem to go with gut feelings. They flirt with people they find an interest with, they get to know people. They go on blind dates or use online sites or speed dating to try to find a spark to build. It then starts building and it becomes about comfort levels. Do you feel like being exclusive? How committed are you comfortable being? Both individuals sort of just feel it out. Eventually they might exchange keys or move in together.

The problem of course is that romantic love pursued this way is simply the old pattern of pursuing an adulterous relationship. The decision to marry for love was a decision to take this compelling feeling of erotic love experienced when you weren’t married (and thus not committing adultery) to motivate you to marry. Romantic stories started displaying this experience as creating better relationships.

For a time, our culture set a series of rules of allowing the couple to fall in love prior to marry while keeping strict guidelines about interaction and discerning marriage. It kept the line between dating/courtship and marriage clear. But our culture has broken down those traditions. Thus we are left with little more than a rule to not fornicate while a culture telling us to follow our heart and to marry for love. The thing is, without a structured courtship process, romantic love becomes merely a temptation to sin.

This is a really good article about the problem in our culture: boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001154.cfm

Another good book by the same author is “Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar.” It gives you some good information to really contemplate.

Excellent post! All very true. We have been left “oarless” in so many aspects of life. Courtship is just one, but a very important one. How to discern a vocation to marry and choose a spouse is something almost no one learns, unless their parents happen to be ultra-traditional (which is radically NEW these days).

 

[dconklin]

This is a tough one. I am not sure this type of problem can be properly defined and solved (I see you are a computer science type) like logical problems. Sure, people write books and try to offer solutions, but it is my belief that relationships just have to work out.

If a guy is awkward around women, there is little that can be done other than “increasing exposure”. You seem to be trying to observe if a couple is friends or they are dating. Observation is only a small part of this discovery.

Typically, guy/girl relationships take time and effort. Getting over personal hindrances is key. Basically, just be yourself.

 

[chevalier]

Hi

So I’m 24 and I’ve never dated before, partly because I didn’t really even care to date or have any interest in dating until a couple of years ago, and also because I find the whole business very confusing.

I think maybe this is just something to do with my generation, I am not sure, but I think the main thing is, I can’t tell the difference between when a guy and a girl are just friends, and when a guy and a girl are dating. Aside from the hand holding, etc. I can’t see any substantial difference… the line between the two seems very vague. And I think that part of the reason I can’t tell the difference is that I’ve never been there before. I have female friends but I don’t really get close with them like I do with male friends, since, in my opinion, guys and girls bond differently, and I think if I became very close friends with someone of the opposite sex then I would probably start to like them.

The whole idea of dating, asking a girl on a date, etc. seems very unnatural to me and kind of scary. I’ve done it once before and she said yes but nothing came of it in the end; I sensed that I had perhaps asked too soon. I have been very attracted to specific female friends in the past but would often explain it away, for example, we’re not good enough friends yet, or we’re about to part ways in life, etc. I don’t know if all my rationalization was justified or was based on fear, etc.

I wonder if I’m just confused, clueless, or maybe I have nothing to worry about and am just overthinking things.

Women are just as clueless as you, if this is of any comfort.

Anyway, affection is in both friendship and romantic relationship but you should be able to feel the difference between the two when it comes to feelings you have for the person. It isn’t really just attraction.

As for dating, it’s a broken concept anyway. The way I see it, there is no reason to make it exclusive if you just have coffee (or even beer or wine or whatever) and talk. Or go sightseeing. Whatever. On the other hand, I absolutely cannot fathom how people can accept multi-romance, as in having several dating relationships and kissing straight on the lips with everybody (as much as I have no trouble understanding cultures in which this is done between friends as a standard thing). It just feels so wrong to me that people would define a relationship not because of what kind of bond they have with a different person but whether it is exclusive or not (especially with the presumption that “everything goes” until exclusivity is promised).

Anyway, just getting to know people is superior. Flirting if needed. Talking a lot. Discovering how you and the other person feel about each other. Courting when sure or at least decided to give it a go.

Heh, to think of it, sometimes I feel like most people have it backwards. Anyway, you can find consolation in that when you find the right woman, you will know what to do. She will also. Life finds its way.

 

[Crescentinus]

You aren’t alone. Even here in the Far East, this problem pops up.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

You’re confusion is well founded because our culture has really abandoned the courtship process whether it was through dating or calling on a young lady. There are plenty of good Catholic and Christian books about how to date, whether to date and how to choose a spouse. They have a lot of good ideas, but I often found them impractical to follow. People just didn’t expect to pursue romantic interests the way the books described and it caused a lot of communication problems.

For sure.

Ultimately our culture has no process anymore.

I sure think it does, as evidenced by myself and my wife and every married friend we have:

-Meet, and if desired,
-Date, and if desired,
-Discern, and if desired,
-Marry

I don’t see what’s so confusing.

What most of our culture wants is to fall in love.

What’s wrong with that exactly?

As such, most people just seem to go with gut feelings.

To begin with, sure. As opposed to what?

They flirt with people they find an interest with, they get to know people. They go on blind dates or use online sites or speed dating to try to find a spark to build. It then starts building and it becomes about comfort levels. Do you feel like being exclusive? How committed are you comfortable being? Both individuals sort of just feel it out.

Again… the problem with this is?

The problem of course is that romantic love pursued this way is simply the old pattern of pursuing an adulterous relationship.

I don’t see the connection whatsoever, and even if they were the same, I still wouldn’t see the problem. You could say to me that many people now go to train tracks and the problem with that is that that’s how many people commit suicide.

I suppose, sure, but it’s also how you catch a train.

The decision to marry for love was a decision to take this compelling feeling of erotic love experienced when you weren’t married (and thus not committing adultery) to motivate you to marry.

That’s a rather shallow vision of marriage, IMO.

For a time, our culture set a series of rules of allowing the couple to fall in love prior to marry while keeping strict guidelines about interaction and discerning marriage. It kept the line between dating/courtship and marriage clear. But our culture has broken down those traditions.

So the “culture” used to have rules…

Thus we are left with little more than a rule to not fornicate

…whereas now, the “culture” has rules?

while a culture telling us to follow our heart and to marry for love. The thing is, without a structured courtship process, romantic love becomes merely a temptation to sin.

I suppose if we set up more “blind marriages” instead of “blind dates” that we could avoid some of the temptation that one has to lust.

Or forget the whole “blind marriage” thing because I know that goes beyond what you envision. Let’s just say we have marriages arranged where the couple never has any time alone or any privacy.

What I highly doubt is that this is a recipe that will increase the success of marriages.

Furthermore, as you yourself admitted, this recipe hardly prevented adultery in the past. So it’s not as if the matter is cut and dry.

Finally, as a closing point: when you’re searching for a potential mate, it’s a game of numbers. You obviously have to have some deal-breakers.

When you eliminate non-Catholics, you narrow the pool of potential spouses. Which is fine… most of us are Catholic here so we want to marry Catholics. Great.

Of course, most of us take our Catholicism somewhat seriously or we wouldn’t be here. So then you have to go ahead and eliminate all the Cafeteria Catholics or Catholics-In-Name-Only. Fine, I get that, many of us are on board with that.

Our pool of potential spouses is narrowing significantly. Now we’re going to go ahead and eliminate all those truly faithful Catholics who do not go the way of courtship? Our pool is virtually eliminated.

Bear in mind that of this miniscule portion of the population, we want to be looking for someone whose: 1) disposition is favorable, 2) who is of the appropriate gender, 3) ideally some commonalities beyond our faith, 4) who is of the appropriate age, 5) ideally some physical attraction… and so on. Add all of your own personal deal-breakers in there.

So what I would suggest - if you plan on courting, great… but I would not suggest making it a must. We already have the numbers working against us… no use denying an otherwise suitable and faithful spouse for this reason in my opinion.

 

[Fireflylight]

I don’t buy any of the “its our culture” bull.

People have managed to date, marry and make babies since the beginning of time. I think that we can do it in 2012 america.

I’ve had the "would you like to date’ conversation often. A couple times it went well and we dated (then broke up) other times we remainded friends and a few times we parted ways and avoided eachother. Sometimes the conversation would come up right away, sometimes after a year or more of being friendly.

The last time however, it was quite clear to the both of us that we were interested in eachother. We met and began dating right away. We know we want to be married.

Dating is about love. If I didn’t love my guy then it’d be kinda pointless. The love grows and changes every day. Sometimes it’s a fun, pasionate love. Sometimes its a (presex) sexual attraction and tension that’s thrilling. Sometimes it’s the familiarty and growing together. Sometimes its just purely decision. But most times, its emotion.

I believe that in soulmates so much as God creates two people who are uniquely benefited by being together. Does that mean one person for all time/lost love? No. But it does mean that God has His hands and some things are truly ment to be. I also believe that God created man to be the knight and woman to be the princess. There’s alot of power of respect found in the disney idea of princess who dosn’t compamize unlike 'that chick flick" where the woman must comprimize her high-falutin ideals in order to get the man (adn capture him). Men in princess movies are wholly giving and especally in modern princess movies realize that they must mature, whereas in muscle movies (which appeal to guys) men can be man-whores and have sex with whomever.

 

[cmscms]

When I was around your age, the big saying was ‘Date and get experience’ meaning learn to know how to realte to guys. (it had nothing to do with sex). As a woman, I mistakenly though if I knew one guy I knew them all. Not true. Every individual is unique. So the fact that you have never dated any girl does not put you at a disadvantage. The only thing having an ex does is make you know what behaviour you will no longer tolerate. It does not teach you much about the next person.

As for being confused… I have never married but I see a lot of married people confused about their spouse. I think the botton line is, you will never be able to enter into someone elses head and there is always issues in relatinships

CM

 

[Chesterton18]

Hi

So I’m 24 and I’ve never dated before, partly because I didn’t really even care to date or have any interest in dating until a couple of years ago, and also because I find the whole business very confusing.

I think maybe this is just something to do with my generation, I am not sure, but I think the main thing is, I can’t tell the difference between when a guy and a girl are just friends, and when a guy and a girl are dating. Aside from the hand holding, etc. I can’t see any substantial difference… the line between the two seems very vague. And I think that part of the reason I can’t tell the difference is that I’ve never been there before. I have female friends but I don’t really get close with them like I do with male friends, since, in my opinion, guys and girls bond differently, and I think if I became very close friends with someone of the opposite sex then I would probably start to like them.

The whole idea of dating, asking a girl on a date, etc. seems very unnatural to me and kind of scary. I’ve done it once before and she said yes but nothing came of it in the end; I sensed that I had perhaps asked too soon. I have been very attracted to specific female friends in the past but would often explain it away, for example, we’re not good enough friends yet, or we’re about to part ways in life, etc. I don’t know if all my rationalization was justified or was based on fear, etc.

I wonder if I’m just confused, clueless, or maybe I have nothing to worry about and am just overthinking things.

You’re definitely not alone. I’m going through something fairly similar. I’m 25 and haven’t dated. It’s extremely odd. There’s a girl I’ve seen once a week, for 7 months, at a social function. Extremely nice. Pretty. I’m interested in her. But, because I haven’t dated, it honestly didn’t even occur to me that by talking to her and joking with her, I was flirting. Blatantly apparently. The other day my sister showed up to one of these events- only the second time she’d come- and she said, “do you like X?”. I was shocked. The next week, she came again and said, “You two are always flirting with each other. I think everyone in the group notices it”. Again, shocked. I don’t flirt…do I? But when I considered it I realized that, yeah, I had been flirting. A lot. And she’d been flirting back. And she’s obviously been waiting for me to do something about it. So I guess now I have to do something about it…right?

Oddly, this isn’t the first time this has happened so you’d think I’d notice the signs. Girls I got along great with, loved talking with, was attracted to, etc, suddenly getting very annoyed with me and staying annoyed. Because (as I later found out) they expected me to ask them out and I never got the hint. I think when not dating is the norm for you, and pretty much always has been, the senses that ordinarily govern romantic relationships atrophy. You flirt because you’re human and the natural, maybe irrepressible, response to physical and emotional attraction is flirting; you want girls you like to think well of you; you want to impress them. And occasionally that happens. You impress them. They respond. But you don’t have the right antennae for the next step. Does this girl like you? How do you know? Afterward, sure, it’s obvious.

But in the moment, when you are involved? My gosh, the signs you miss. So I think it needs learning and trying. This is what I’m coming to. I’m embarrassingly oblivious- capable of receiving 7 months worth of hints without putting any of the pieces together- mostly because I haven’t had the practice.

Notice I say, “mostly”. You asked if you’re over-thinking things. Well, you probably are. Here’s where part of my confusion came in: at the exact same time I met girl X I met girl Y. At the same function. I haven’t seen the two of them apart (they’re friends and always come together) more than 2 or 3 times. When it started to occur to me (prompted by my sister) that I’d been flirting with girl X, I was puzzled. What about girl Y? I talk to her. We have a lot in common (seemingly more than girl X and I have in common). She’s as attractive, or at least most people would say so. How is it I’m flirting with girl X but not with girl Y? I asked my sister, when she suggested I ask X out, “what about Y? I met her at the same time. She’s single. What if she likes me too? Wouldn’t that hurt her feelings? To be passed over, when I haven’t actually spent any more time with X?” My sister just looked at me like I was an idiot. Because apparently there’s a secret code; and I’ve signaled I like X and X has signaled she likes me, and Y has either come to grips with this or didn’t care in the first place (i.e, isn’t attracted to me). And that’s it, apparently.

My sister, who probably gave my love-life (or lack thereof) about 4 minutes passing thought, clarified the situation better than I’d managed in hours of fretting. Because the thing is, after 8th grade or so, most people don’t spend a whole heckuva lot of time examining attraction. It’s just obvious. They learn it as they go along. Examining it analytically (over-thinking it) produces increasingly diminishing returns. Reason just isn’t the organ that governs that bit of our lives. If you like a girl, chances are you’re flirting with her every-time you talk to her. If she sticks around (continues talking to you, makes an effort to get to know you, etc) chances are she’s picked up on your flirtation (even if she doesn’t realize it). If she’s generally a nice person, she’s probably not just sticking around to stoke her ego; she probably like you: ask her out. That’s very long-winded advice from a similarly situated young man.

 

[Chesterton18]

You’re confusion is well founded because our culture has really abandoned the courtship process whether it was through dating or calling on a young lady. There are plenty of good Catholic and Christian books about how to date, whether to date and how to choose a spouse. They have a lot of good ideas, but I often found them impractical to follow. People just didn’t expect to pursue romantic interests the way the books described and it caused a lot of communication problems.

Ultimately our culture has no process anymore. What most of our culture wants is to fall in love. As such, most people just seem to go with gut feelings. They flirt with people they find an interest with, they get to know people. They go on blind dates or use online sites or speed dating to try to find a spark to build. It then starts building and it becomes about comfort levels. Do you feel like being exclusive? How committed are you comfortable being? Both individuals sort of just feel it out. Eventually they might exchange keys or move in together.

The problem of course is that romantic love pursued this way is simply the old pattern of pursuing an adulterous relationship. The decision to marry for love was a decision to take this compelling feeling of erotic love experienced when you weren’t married (and thus not committing adultery) to motivate you to marry. Romantic stories started displaying this experience as creating better relationships.

For a time, our culture set a series of rules of allowing the couple to fall in love prior to marry while keeping strict guidelines about interaction and discerning marriage. It kept the line between dating/courtship and marriage clear. But our culture has broken down those traditions. Thus we are left with little more than a rule to not fornicate while a culture telling us to follow our heart and to marry for love. The thing is, without a structured courtship process, romantic love becomes merely a temptation to sin.

This is a really good article about the problem in our culture: boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001154.cfm

Another good book by the same author is “Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar.” It gives you some good information to really contemplate.

Funny you should bring up courtship because I’m a big Jane Austen fan; and honestly, I’d know exactly how to behave in a world with those conventions and mores. What ultimately bothered me about the situation I related in my last reply (where I’d been flirting with a girl and she’d been flirting with me but nothing had come of it) was how awful that would have been in Austen’s time. If you were a guy, you didn’t dance with a girl 3 times in one evening, call on her parents 7 times in a month, and then just wander off without making a proposal; a proposal was expected. Lots of reasons for that, some of which no longer apply (a woman’s financial well-being was bound up in her potential marriage and, by paying so much attention to her, you were lessening her chances of making another match) but some of which do. Human nature for instance: amiable, unattached men and women, in close proximity, inherently tend to attract (the modern culture which says this is not so lies) and attraction which goes nowhere hurts. So we ought not let it happen.

So while I don’t quite agree with you that there’s no longer any system (as another post noted, there still is, if you know where to look) it’s obvious that the modern culture has tried to re-write all sorts of unchangeable rules of human interaction, with confusing and frequently disastrous results. More on this later.

 

[chevalier]

Funny you should bring up courtship because I’m a big Jane Austen fan; and honestly, I’d know exactly how to behave in a world with those conventions and mores. What ultimately bothered me about the situation I related in my last reply (where I’d been flirting with a girl and she’d been flirting with me but nothing had come of it) was how awful that would have been in Austen’s time. If you were a guy, you didn’t dance with a girl 3 times in one evening, call on her parents 7 times in a month, and then just wander off without making a proposal; a proposal was expected. Lots of reasons for that, some of which no longer apply (a woman’s financial well-being was bound up in her potential marriage and, by paying so much attention to her, you were lessening her chances of making another match) but some of which do. Human nature for instance: amiable, unattached men and women, in close proximity, inherently tend to attract (the modern culture which says this is not so lies) and attraction which goes nowhere hurts. So we ought not let it happen.

+1, or we all need to develop thicker skins, which is also a possibility.