Daughter wants to leave the church

[Anglewannabe]

While some of her opinions are understandable, compassion for the person experiencing SSA for example, I don’t think I’d go so far as to say they are all “common sense”. But you make several other good points.

Oops, should have explained that better. To a 15 year old, the 15 year old thinks the opinion is common sense. What I meant to say was it is hard for a 15 year old to understand her opinion could be wrong

 

[ConfusedLucy]

What of the many, many women saints who were not mothers?

I actually think the Church does a better job than many other Christian groups because we don’t and have never expected that all good Christians grow up, get married, and have kids. There’s different vocations, different spiritualities, different roles for all of us to play. Many Catholics who don’t know their faith well don’t see that and think that what they see in the pew at Mass is it.

I do still feel called to practice my faith but I think if I am called to anyhing it will probably be outside the church. I don’t see what traditional vocation within the church is open as a married, childless woman without any obvious talents. I don’t think this was what Jesus wanted for the church but its just how it is.

Back to the thread, this girl is at a difficult age with gender roles in church, I don’t want to insult any teenage boys reading this as I am probably generalising a little but boys this age can be very unapealing and tend to mature later. At 15 the idea of submitting to one of these immature, rude, gropy boys and accepting them as the spiritual leader was laughable, I even thought I was asexual until I was 18 because of the boys I went to school with.

Teenagers always think they’re right (I imagine most adults do too) but at least she is willing to talk to you. I would try to keep this up even if she does leave church.

 

[ArielRussu]

This is not an accurate view of history.

The Middle Ages, and the so-called “Dark Ages,” when the Church arguably had the most political power they’ve ever held in history, were very different than early modern/Renaissance and post-Reformation Europe, and that includes a lot about how women lived and operated in society. I’d really encourage you to learn about that. It is not nearly as simple as you make it out to be.

And without writing a thesis paper right here that’s about all I can say.

Yes, yes it is accurate.

bl.uk/the-middle-ages/articles/women-in-medieval-society

"Yet **however powerful some women were in the Middle Ages, it is important to remember that the overwhelming majority were not. Most women, even those in privileged circumstances, had little control over the direction their lives took. ** The marriages of young aristocratic women were usually arranged by their families (but here it is worth noting that their husbands, too, had little choice in their partners). Once widowed, such women had legal independence and, in many instances, autonomy over considerable financial resources.

The two main alternatives for a medieval woman were to marry, or to ‘take the veil’ and become a nun. Almost all female orders required women to live behind the walls of a monastery or within an individual cell, living a life of contemplation, prayer and work. Though the appeal of this way of life might be difficult to grasp today, for a medieval woman, one of its attractions must have been freedom from the dangers of childbearing.

Most women, however, were married, usually as teenagers. Afterwards, they were responsible for managing the household, whether this was a great castle or a small peasant hovel."

heeve.com/middle-ages-history/women-in-the-middle-ages.html

"The perception of gender roles in medieval Europe was greatly influenced by the Roman Catholic Church which did not present women in the best light. **The Church considered women to be responsible for the original sin or the Fall of Man on the basis that a woman – Eve persuaded Adam to eat the fruit from the forbidden tree of knowledge which resulted in the expulsion of man from paradise. **

Women’s image in the eyes of the Church improved slightly after the emergence of the cults of the Blessed Virgin Mary and Mary Magdalene in the 12th and 13th centuries but only for a short time. The end of the Middle Ages saw the beginning of witch-hunts which reached their height in the Early Modern Period. Thousands of people were executed for witchcraft, while about 80 percent of the victims of this mass hysteria were women."

 

[Sarcelle]

Rebellion is often only against the **older **generation and its institutions. They cling in a life-grip to their own age-group. You can’t get away from the herd instinct.

Even my DBS once opined that I didn’t understand life because ten years older!

ICXC NIKA

What is a DBS?

 

[AnnieHill]

She sounds like she needs to seek out her own understanding of God and value. Ideally, she would see this in the most perfect image of our Mother but Mary can be a difficult concept to grasp especially in one so young, which makes Mary all the more amazing to me as she grasped this likely around 14 or 15 years old when St. Gabriel came to her.

Anyways…forcing her to attend Mass is still your duty as parents. I would also try and find ways to help her see ALL the amazing things the Catholic church does in helping so many throughout the world (a simple google search will reveal the Catholic church helps more than all charities put together). We are also responsible, I believe, for upper education (i.e. college).

However in all that she may walk away anyhow. I was raised very traditionally Catholic and homeschooled… and I do have a vivid memory of feeling rather insignificant and marginalized as a young person. My brothers were glorified as alter servers and sought after to become priests (never did in the end) and pressed to attend Catholic university. No one cared less about me or what I did so I left the church…for years…married someone who wasn’t Catholic in a non Catholic ceremony. I am now very devout, my husband converted, we married in the church, and our children are baptized. I came back and I came back swinging but your daughter is right that I felt my worth as a wife and mother within the church much more strongly than I did my adolescent years which is something I am VERY aware of for my own daughter and being certain I bring her up to understand the worth and value of being a servant to Christ and how this isn’t gender specific.

 

[1ke]

(ps…we don’t call it CCD anymore either. )

We do where I live.

 

[1ke]

my 15 year old daughter despises most christian churches, including Catholicism She believes in God but she basically wants to be a liberal christian…you know those people that do whatever they want and call themselves a christian, they focus on the relationship and not “religion” and rules…

I asked her why and she told me she doesn’t like the Church’s stance on SSA, sex and that she feels religion is for “guys”. i always thought the church is too feminine…

she hates the complementarian idea, how women apparently in the church are valued because they can give birth, not because of who they are…she doesn’t like how christians are hateful people…

We still make her follow us for Mass, but there’ll be a time when we cannot do so.

please pray for her and advice will be good!

What kinds of conversations have you and your wife had with your daughter through the years on these subjects?

 

[matthewww]

What kinds of conversations have you and your wife had with your daughter through the years on these subjects?

wife explained church’s teachings on sex etc when she gave her ‘the talk’, we encourage her to join a group in church-how she can help out in many ways, even though she is not a guy (she wanted to join her brothers in altar boys when she was younger…she would even dress as a boy to show us that she could join ), stuff like that. we have not sat her down and lecture her, because we know that it will annoy her and she won’t take us seriously, so we try to talk about it during casual conversation. but when she grows older, she lost more and more patience when we talk about religion

 

[matthewww]

I do still feel called to practice my faith but I think if I am called to anyhing it will probably be outside the church. I don’t see what traditional vocation within the church is open as a married, childless woman without any obvious talents. I don’t think this was what Jesus wanted for the church but its just how it is.

Back to the thread, this girl is at a difficult age with gender roles in church, I don’t want to insult any teenage boys reading this as I am probably generalising a little but boys this age can be very unapealing and tend to mature later. At 15 the idea of submitting to one of these immature, rude, gropy boys and accepting them as the spiritual leader was laughable, I even thought I was asexual until I was 18 because of the boys I went to school with.

Teenagers always think they’re right (I imagine most adults do too) but at least she is willing to talk to you. I would try to keep this up even if she does leave church.

thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I cannot relate because I’m a guy, but reading stuff like this makes me upset a little. after reading about it, i can definitely see there is a preoccupation on a woman’s fertility when it comes to womanhood. I wouldn’t say the church itself is obsessed about it, but more of the people in the church…I was finding materials for her/wife to read but a lot of them always talk about the beauty of pregnancy, even some threads here…

i can sense her frustration now someone on a thread here said something like “women cannot be priests but they have the privilege of being mothers” maybe now I understand why angry feminists are attacking the church (I’m not supporting women priests, but there is a better way to explain it people!)

i think we’re in a difficult situation-where secular society hates motherhood, so religious circles focus on it maybe a little too much

masculinity in the church was way easier to teach-more inclusive and it doesn’t really offend anybody. my sons absorbed all that like a sponge

girls can be difficult to raise. she likes the story of st joan when she was younger though (we have a book of saints) catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=295

 

[Lea101]

masculinity in the church was way easier to teach-more inclusive and it doesn’t really offend anybody. my sons absorbed all that like a sponge

girls can be difficult to raise. she likes the story of st joan when she was younger though (we have a book of saints) catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=295

yep. my mom used to say that she preferred raising up my brothers compared to my sister and I…not because of what you said though. My parents did have a hard time encouraging me to join a church group but I didn’t want to-I had a brief stint as a lector but I didn’t feel included/feel as if I’m doing anything meaningful so I stopped. Even now my brothers are forcing me to join something (they are altar boys too) because they think my faith is weak.

TBH, it’s inevitable that boys will have an “easier” time accepting-I mean, they are not told that they can’t be ___ because of their sex (in the church). Teenage girls also tend to have the anger you daughter have, especially if they have brothers+live in a religious household. Ok…maybe it is just me

Conversations went like
me: how come they can __________ but I can’t?
parents: because you’re a girl, it’s different!

And then when religion basically gives you the same answers to certain questions, it’s even more frustrating especially in a society where women can achieve what they want (because that answer just doesn’t cut it, we aren’t used to being “held back” like that). cut her some slack. IMO there’s nothing my dad can do to make me…I don’t know…like being a girl/catholic at the moment.

I’m not saying you should give up, keep casually talking about the faith, don’t enforce useless rules that might annoy her (my friend’s mom used to force her to put on a skirt/dress and make her hair look pretty because she absolutely needed to “enjoy being a woman”) Like other posters said, there’s a point where she makes the choice of leaving the church or not. (And if she leaves, she could always come back, so pray for her)

you also mentioned that she isn’t stereotypically feminine or something like that, I believe? you also don’t seem to be forcing her to change, which is good. Encouraging who she naturally is might show her that the church welcomes everyone

 

[Rau]

wife explained church’s teachings on sex etc when she gave her ‘the talk’, we encourage her to join a group in church-how she can help out in many ways, even though she is not a guy (she wanted to join her brothers in altar boys when she was younger…she would even dress as a boy to show us that she could join ), stuff like that. we have not sat her down and lecture her, because we know that it will annoy her and she won’t take us seriously, so we try to talk about it during casual conversation. but when she grows older, she lost more and more patience when we talk about religion

How long ago was “the talk”?

What is it that as a girl your daughter could not “help out” in around the Church that a boy could? While there has been a traditional focus on boys as altar servers (since it’s seen as a first opportunity for them to get closer visibility of a future option to serve at the altar as priest), the Church has explicitly signalled that girls may also serve since at least 1994, subject to the Bishop’s general approval, and even 12 years ago (when your daughter was 3), all US Diocese’s except 2 allowed girls to serve, though parish priests do get to decide in their parish.
ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur19.htm

 

[Rau]

thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I cannot relate because I’m a guy…

I don’t see how being male has any bearing on the issue. Lucy’s issue is that she is married, but without children. You are married with children. She views you as having the parenting vocation. What she misses is that her immediate vocation is to help bring her husband to heaven.

but reading stuff like this makes me upset a little. after reading about it, i can definitely see there is a preoccupation on a woman’s fertility when it comes to womanhood.

There is no such preoccupation.

I wouldn’t say the church itself is obsessed about it, but more of the people in the church… I was finding materials for her/wife to read but a lot of them always talk about the beauty of pregnancy, even some threads here…

I am at a loss to know what it is that you are searching for. I’m finding this whole “gender thing” a bit contrived.

i can sense her frustration now someone on a thread here said something like “women cannot be priests but they have the privilege of being mothers” maybe now I understand why angry feminists are attacking the church (I’m not supporting women priests, but there is a better way to explain it people!)

I suspect your daughter has no interest in being a priest. I don’t know what “explanation” you have seen as to why the priesthood is reserved to men, but here is the official position.
forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=14230937

masculinity in the church was way easier to teach-more inclusive and it doesn’t really offend anybody. my sons absorbed all that like a sponge

To what teaching do you refer here that your sons absorbed?

 

[Rau]

yep. my mom used to say that she preferred raising up my brothers compared to my sister and I…not because of what you said though. My parents did have a hard time encouraging me to join a church group but I didn’t want to-I had a brief stint as a lector but I didn’t feel included/feel as if I’m doing anything meaningful so I stopped. Even now my brothers are forcing me to join something (they are altar boys too) because they think my faith is weak.

TBH, it’s inevitable that boys will have an “easier” time accepting-I mean, they are not told that they can’t be ___ because of their sex (in the church). Teenage girls also tend to have the anger you daughter have, especially if they have brothers+live in a religious household. Ok…maybe it is just me

Conversations went like
me: how come they can __________ but I can’t?
parents: because you’re a girl, it’s different!

What goes in the ________ ? Besides “be a priest”? In most places, men and women can both:

• be altar servers;
• be lectors;
• participate in a church choir or as musician;
• take up a ministry such as “Eucharistic Minister”
• work for the charitable organisations of the Church (employed, or as volunteer);
• work as a missionary;
• involve themselves in the parish sacramental program, eg. preparing school children (in my parish - all the leaders in this are women);
• join a religious order;
• become a theologian

There may be other activities you have in mind, or perhaps your parish is more restrictive in some ways I’m not appreciating.

 

[Sarcelle]

I don’t see how being male has any bearing on the issue. Lucy’s issue is that she is married, but without children. You are married with children. She views you as having the parenting vocation. What she misses is that her immediate vocation is to help bring her husband to heaven.

There is no such preoccupation.

I am at a loss to know what it is that you are searching for. I’m finding this whole “gender thing” a bit contrived.

I suspect your daughter has no interest in being a priest. I don’t know what “explanation” you have seen as to why the priesthood is reserved to men, but here is the official position.
forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=14230937

To what teaching do you refer here that your sons absorbed?

I will not go so far as to call it a preoccupation but the idea is out there that the sum total of being feminine lies in pregnancy and childbirth. It’s all backward. Like giving birth is required to be considered a real woman.

The Church does not teach this but a lot of conservative Catholics certainly do think this.

Childbirth and pregnancy are a part of femininity but aren’t the only parts.

 

[ArielRussu]

wife explained church’s teachings on sex etc when she gave her ‘the talk’, we encourage her to join a group in church-how she can help out in many ways, even though she is not a guy (she wanted to join her brothers in altar boys when she was younger…she would even dress as a boy to show us that she could join ), stuff like that. we have not sat her down and lecture her, because we know that it will annoy her and she won’t take us seriously, so we try to talk about it during casual conversation. but when she grows older, she lost more and more patience when we talk about religion

When I was in the Catholic Church my parish allowed altar girls. It’s a task not just for boys. And I’m in my 20s.

 

[AClaire11]

It depends on the parish and diocese. My diocese allows parishes to only have altar boys if the priest wishes. And I’ve also run into the “but women are nurturing and can give birth” shtick a lot.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

I don’t think any parish deliberately tries to ignore anyone who doesn’t follow the approved life path or gender role and make them feel uncomfortable and want to leave. I don’t think churches deliberately exclude anyone. Nevertheless there are people who don’t feel comfortable in church. Some of us have enough faith to stick with it regardless but others don’t, I probably wouldn’t have had a strong enough faith to go it alone when I was a teen.

You say she still believes in God and I would try to set her a good example in the faith, pray for her and try to build up her faith. Do you talk about the Eucharist? About the beauty of the mass? I hope she stays even if she continues to struggle with what it means to be a woman in church.

God bless you for having this dialogue with her and not trying to just minimize her feelings.

 

[1ke]

wife explained church’s teachings on sex etc when she gave her ‘the talk’, we encourage her to join a group in church-how she can help out in many ways, even though she is not a guy (she wanted to join her brothers in altar boys when she was younger…she would even dress as a boy to show us that she could join ), stuff like that. we have not sat her down and lecture her, because we know that it will annoy her and she won’t take us seriously, so we try to talk about it during casual conversation. but when she grows older, she lost more and more patience when we talk about religion

Forming your children is not a one time talk. Forming them happens every day. From the time they are born. Training them how to think through secular influence from a Catholic perspective needs to happen very early.

It sounds like she has been heavily influenced by the culture and by someone or something specific to feminist teaching. That may have its roots in the TV shows, movies, and books she was exposed to at a younger age. You are going to have to do a LOT of discussing to deprogram that influence. Not less talking.

I can tell you that I have several sets of nieces/nephews and the vast difference between them is highly attributable to how much their family lets pop culture invade their home life.

The two families that have always limited TV or have no TV in favor of reading classics, playing instruments, art, dance, drama, in their home life have much different children than the two families who have unsupervised/unlimited TV, designer clothing, and all the pop culture music and movies. It’s night and day.

Curious, when she asked to be an altar server, what did you and your wife tell her?

 

[1ke]

What is it that as a girl your daughter could not “help out” in around the Church that a boy could?

It’s up to the individual priest whether he has all boy altar servers or boys and girls.

 

[Rau]

It’s up to the individual priest whether he has all boy altar servers or boys and girls.

Yes, I noted that just a few posts back. And I don’t know the spread in the US. Girls are commonplace where I live.