Days of Genesis

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Please watch this. This priest did his master’s thesis on this subject. He quotes Church Fathers on it as well.

He also gives a great explanation of “day”, since shockingly the Bible wasn’t written in English and the word translated as day has multiple meanings and is used for different periods of time.

 
How long might a changeless, motionless, steady state model remain motionless - unchanged?

Surely there can exist an ontological measurement of duration of such a scenario.

Or a means of differentiating between the duration of steady state #1 and steady state #2 both having different durations.
 
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So there was this atheist I talked to. He said that the days of genesis make no sense. Genesis says the earth came before the stars. He said how could there be light if there were no stars before? He said the orders are all messed up. So what is the order supposed to mean?
That’s a typical unoriginal diatribe of some atheists …
Best not to get hung up in their need to undermine Sacred Scriptures
 
One interpretation of the first day is offered from Ven. Mary of Agreda, and Ven. Catherine Emmerich in their private revelations. The first day refers to the creation of the Angels; the division of night and day was the fall of the bad angels,

I suggest the strange and sometimes confusing order of days in Genesis, as compared to our scientific knowledge indicates being in God’s presence. God is timeless, but acting in time. The author is traditionally Moses, he may have experienced unusual disorder in nature while in God’s presence. And it may be confusing to try to relate the revelation God gave Moses, while being in time while God is outside and eternal to time. Confused?!
 
What percentage of a passage can be false and still be considered true on the whole?
False? You seem to see the world in black and white.

Why is it that a passage which was not written as a scientific explanation of something, but rather as a poetic explanation is now considered "false?
 
The Church does not look at the Old Testament and say “this is false” and “that is true”. The Church treats the OT (and the NT) as God revealing Himself to us through history. The Church is not a literalist in looking at Scripture, but rather a contextualist; it looks at a passage (here, pick one in Genesis) and says “What does this reveal to us about God and our relationship with Him?”. It recognizes a number of ways that truth is revealed, including what could be considered “poetic”; it does not, however, presume that which may be “poetic” to be “scientific” literally.

So: Genesis is not “false” unless you are saying that Genesis is not an accurate scientific explanation of creation, and therefore “false” in the sense of it being “not scientific” - which is not how the Church understands Genesis.
But the order is false both in a scientific sense and in a figurative sense. As I said to @humbleseeker there is no reason to add false elements to a poetic telling of the universe. It could have easily used the same poetic language but put things in the right order. It would have eliminated false elements. Now believers are forced to accept a certain percentage of outright and unneeded falseness in their holy book.
Let me try this from another direction. If I say “I looked into my wife’s eyes and saw love”, by your statement about Genesis I am false, and therefore lying, because I should have said “when I looked into my wife’s eyes, I saw rods and cones”.
I fully appreciate figurative language, but the key is to have that language be in line with the actual events being described. In your example it makes sense to figuratively see love when looking into your wife’s eyes. It’s wholly true in a poetic sense. But too often with apologetics we’re supposed to accept something like “raining cats and dogs” to describe a sunny day. Genesis 1 and 2 – unnecessarily – adds an order to the events that not only don’t match actual events but each other.

If only I had a penny every time I’m told a passage is figurative without then being told how the passage is figurative. How are “first”, “second”, “third”, “fourth”, “fifth”, and “sixth” to be understood in Gen1 and Gen2?
False? You seem to see the world in black and white.

Why is it that a passage which was not written as a scientific explanation of something, but rather as a poetic explanation is now considered "false?
I don’t usually see the world in black and white. When I do it’s better than the doublethink common with apologetics. The Church claims with absolute certainty each passage in the Bible is completely true, yet is unable to say how it’s true. Imagine an airplane inspector who doesn’t know what half the parts of the plane do. If it were completely true there would be no false elements serving no literal or figurative purpose. If a passage can contain elements that are neither literally or figuratively true, then that goes back to my original question as to what percentage of falsehood is allowed and can still be consider true as a whole.
 
None of Divine Revelation is false.

There are four senses of Scripture. You can learn about them in the Catechism
I’m fully aware of the four senses of scripture. Tell me specifically how “first”, “second”, “third”, “fourth”, “fifth”, and “sixth” to be understood in both Genesis 1 and Genesis 2? Don’t just say that it’s not literal and believe that this is sufficient.
 
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The Church claims with absolute certainty each passage in the Bible is completely true,
No, it most definitely does not make that claim.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 289: “Among all the Scriptural texts about creation, the first three chapters of Genesis occupy a unique place. From a literary standpoint these texts may have had diverse sources. The inspired authors have placed them at the beginning of Scripture to express in their solemn language the truths of creation - its origin and its end in God, its order and goodness, the vocation of man, and finally the drama of sin and the hope of salvation. Read in the light of Christ, within the unity of Sacred Scripture and in the living Tradition of the Church,m these texts remain the principal source for catechesis on the mysteries of the “beginning”: creation, fall, and promise of salvation.”

And to go backward a couple of paragraphs: 283: The questions about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator, prompting us to give him thanks for all his works and for the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers."

I understand you are an atheist; I get it. And you are most welcome to come into the forums and discuss things with us; and to ask questions.

However, your comment to me, after I have tried to explain what we believe Scripture teaches us, tells me and everyone else here that you have not the faintest, slightest inkling of what the Church teaches or claims concerning Genesis. It would help conversations if you put your hubris aside and and instead of making claims about that which you appear to know absolutely nothing, you instead pose such issues as a question.

I have no problem with someone who does not know what the Church teaches and holds; I have no problem with someone who, upon hearing what the Church holds, disagrees with it.

But telling me what the Church believes when you clearly do not have a clue does not engender further conversation.
 
No, it most definitely does not make that claim.

But telling me what the Church believes when you clearly do not have a clue does not engender further conversation.
Allow me to quote the Catechism as well. Paragraph 107 says, “The inspired books teach the truth. ‘Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.’” [emphasis mine]

Now unless the ordinal numbers mentioned in both Genesis 1 and 2 are true in a literal, allegorical, moral, or anagogical sense (as laid out in paragraphs 115-117) then they are errors. Not only are they errors but as I noted earlier they are unnecessary errors in using poetic language to describe God’s creation of the universe.

The paragraphs you quoted do not say that scientific discoveries will correct errors in the meaning of those creation passages, yet that’s specifically what has happened.

I’ll ask again. In what specific sense are we to understand the ordinal numbers in Genesis 1 and 2. If they are not true in any of the four sense then they are errors (despite the Catechism teaching that the inspired books teach without error). If that is the case, then the question becomes “How much of a passage can be errored and still be considered true as a whole?”
 
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Here is some help that I found:
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Why did God create light twice, day one and day four? Sacred Scripture
My best guess is that one is literal (day four) and the other figurative (day one). But if this is so, how do we interpret day one? I do not know for sure, but I lean towards a Jewish interpretation where the light is that of God. [This world] is the lowest in degree; there is none lower than it in terms of concealment of His light and no world compares with it for doubled and redoubled darkness; nowhere is G d’s light hidden as in this world. m.chabad.org/dailystudy/tanya.asp?tdate=3/9/2014 I…
I suggest you read through a good portion of the responses as it is very enlightening.

Peace!
 
Here is some help that I found:
Why did God create light twice, day one and day four?

I suggest you read through a good portion of the responses as it is very enlightening.

Peace!
Thank you for the link. It’s telling that the thread shows many people sure that something is true and accurate, but can’t agree on what it means. Maybe the light in the first day refers to the big bang and the light in the fourth refers to normal light. Maybe the light in the first day refers to Jesus. It’s seeing the answer, assuming it’s correct, then forming an explanation around it.

It’s worth noting that light is only one of the problems with the two Genesis stories.

In Genesis 1:
  • The Earth was created before the sun.
  • Plants flowered and grew before the sun existed.
  • Flying creatures existed before ground creatures.
In Genesis 2:
  • Man came before plants.
  • Man came before animals, but somehow animals came before woman.
 
You asked:
I’ll ask again. In what specific sense are we to understand the ordinal numbers in Genesis 1 and 2.
The thread that @SFV linked contains multiple proposed explanations for how we should interpret those ordinal numbers, and even gives specifics on why they would be ordered in a non-temporarily accurate way.

Then, you argue that there are too many proposed solutions, and that that itself is reason to doubt Scriptures veracity when you say:
It’s telling that the thread shows many people sure that something is true and accurate, but can’t agree on what it means.
My question to you is, is there any answer that you would find to be satisfying? You seem to be moving the goalposts.
 
The thread that @SFV linked contains multiple proposed explanations for how we should interpret those ordinal numbers, and even gives specifics on why they would be ordered in a non-temporarily accurate way.
Here is a rundown of that entire thread post by psst:
[ 1 ] If we assume the light mentioned on day one is figurative and the light mentioned on day four is literal, how do we interpret the day one light? The Jewish interpretation is that the light in day 1 is of God.

[ 2 ] Day 1: creation of time / Day 4: creation of objects in the sky. This is a departure from other theologies where these objects were consider gods themselves.

[ 3 ] The first three days were when realms were created, and the next three days talk about filling those realms with things.

[ 4 ] God created light once on day 1 and created light-giving objects on day 4.

[ 5 ] God created light twice like he created Adam and Eve twice. Gen 1 and 2 were from different sources and different versions of events.

[ 6 ] Day 1: Big bang / Day 4: Coalescing of stars

[ 7 ] The light that was created on day 1 was unseen by those on Earth until day 4 due to clouds.

[ 8 ] The light in day 1 is Jesus.

[ 9 ] Correcting nmgauss’ citation as to which source relates to which chapter of Genesis.

[ 10 ] The purpose of the 2 versions is to refute other religions, show that God and creation are good, and that God created everything from nothing.

[ 11 ] The source of Gen 1 was written after Gen 2 and not written to be accurate but to propagate a theology.

[ 12 ] Talking about how post 11 is a modern-day conspiracy theory.

[ 13 ] Were the lights of day 4 created knowing that the light of day 1 (Jesus) would someday be withdrawn “as a consequence of a departure from Gpd?”

[ 14 ] Pondering over post 13 as to if the sun and moon relate to Mary.

[ 15 ] Jewish commentraries point out that Gen 1 is highly poetic and that it’s focused on the number 7. A Catholic author refers to Gen 1 as “a great hymn of introduction”. One commentary says both accounts/traditions were include so there’d be no need to decide. The days are grouped as 1-3 and 4-6 (not explaining why the order within those groups is wrong). Scripture is poetry.

[ 16 ] It’s curious how light was created before light generating sources.

[ 17 ] The light created in day 1 can’t be Jesus because Jesus wasn’t created.

[ 18 ] Agrees with 17 that Jesus was not created and thinks the Jewish explanation is the best.

[ 19 ] Disagrees with 18 on the Jewish interpretation since very often it runs counter to Catholic interpretation.

[ 20 ] Off-topic, talking about three centuries of differing Christian doctrine after Pentecost.

[ 21 ] Jesus is light.

[ 22 ] Asks 21 then what is the message.

[ 23 ] Tells 19 to reread what he wrote earlier.

[ 24 ] Tells 22 that Jesus is the message.

[ 25 ] Tells 24 that it sounds like one is to give us things like the creeds to focus solely on Jesus.

[ 26 ] Tells 25 that he misinterpreted what he wrote in 24.

continued…
 
[ 27 ] Tells 20 that Jesus is the foretold messiah and that didn’t come from Constantine.

[ 28 ] Explains that the one who posted in 20 is a secular humanist.

[ 29 ] Asks 27 if this is the everlasting covenant.

[ 30 ] Tells 20 that Constantine only legitamized Christianity and didn’t exclude others.

[ 31 ] Tells 21 that it makes it sound like Jesus is part of the equation.

Tell me where specifically in that thread it specifically outlines why the six days are ordered as they are in Gen 1 and 2.
Then, you argue that there are too many proposed solutions,
Looking it over it’s clear I was to generous in calling many of them proposed solutions. There is a great deal of conflict especially on whether to consider the light in day 1 Jesus, especially since it says that light was created. The explanation in post 4 is far and away the most reasonable. But this issue with the days of Genesis goes far beyond the use of the term light. In my last post I gave five different orders that were wrong in Gen 1 and 2, and the thread being linked to gives no reason why such false information is there.
and that that itself is reason to doubt Scriptures veracity when you say:
It’s telling that the thread shows many people sure that something is true and accurate, but can’t agree on what it means.
My question to you is, is there any answer that you would find to be satisfying? You seem to be moving the goalposts.
There’s no need to project. I’m asking simple questions that follow naturally from the chapters themselves. I have not moved the goalposts an inch, but I’m waiting for someone to get even close to the uprights. Explain why specifically the order is at is in Gen 1 and Gen 2 and why they differ would be nice.
 
The answer was in the same article I provided:
God created light twice for the same reason that he created Adam and Eve twice. The first two chapters of the Book of Genesis were written by two different authors. The J (Jahweh) source was used for chapter 1, and the E (Elohim) source for chapter 2. That is why there is so much redundancy. Creation is described first by one author, and the same creation is described by the other author, each one writing it according to his own version.
Chapter 1 is P, chapter 2 and following is J.
Whether you hold to the P or E source, it is clear that Genesis incorporates two different versions of the Creation (as well as two different versions of the Flood).
Peace!
 
The explanation in post 4 is far and away the most reasonable. But this issue with the days of Genesis goes far beyond the use of the term light. In my last post I gave five different orders that were wrong in Gen 1 and 2, and the thread being linked to gives no reason why such false information is there.
I’d agree that post 4 is probably the most reasonable. The reason that thread didn’t include explanations to the other five different orders is because the title of the thread specifically asks about the light and not the others. If it’s possible that a non-temporal explanation for the light can be provided, couldn’t it be possible that a similar explanation be provided for the other five? If you are curious to discuss those, I’d recommend starting a new thread.
There’s no need to project.
How am I projecting?
I have not moved the goalposts an inch, but I’m waiting for someone to get even close to the uprights. Explain why specifically the order is at is in Gen 1 and Gen 2 and why they differ would be nice.
You yourself said that post 4 has the most potential, and to me it seems like a decent explanation. Perhaps you aren’t convinced by it, but you seem to be implying that since you don’t find it convincing then it doesn’t exist, and then acting like we have no response. The fact that there are multiple competing interpretations is not the same as there being no valid interpretations.
 
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You’re just kicking the can down the road.

Why did the source for Genesis 1 have the order as it did?
Why did the source for Genesis 2 have the order as it did?

The fact that they differ and have different sources in no way explains their methodology, why the Church considers both versions true, and how they consider both versions true.
 
Why did the source for Genesis 1 have the order as it did?
Why did the source for Genesis 2 have the order as it did?

The fact that they differ and have different sources in no way explains their methodology, why the Church considers both versions true, and how they consider both versions true.
Try this thread, especially the post by DelsonJacobs:
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Genesis 1:3 - What was the light that God created? Sacred Scripture
Some believe in means the angels and heaven.
Specifically:
“Therefore the creation story of God was orally taught and later written down as a seven-day mnemonic device that culminates in a lesson about observing the Sabbath. Obeying Torah and keeping the Sabbath was as important as attributing creation to God!”
 
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