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NSFrame
Guest
I suggest checking out “Ask an Apologist”. Missing Mass on purpose is indeed a mortal sin, as evidenced by the fact that one is supposed to refrain from Communion until this sin is confessed.
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EasterJoy
Guest
English translation of canon law says that grave sins are to be confessed. If the matter is grave and the action was willful (as is necessary for it to be a sin at all), it is to be confessed:
*Can. 988 §1. A member of the Christian faithful is obliged to confess in kind and number all grave sins committed after baptism and not yet remitted directly through the keys of the Church nor acknowledged in individual confession, of which the person has knowledge after diligent examination of conscience.
§2. It is recommended to the Christian faithful that they also confess venial sins.
**Can. 916 *A person who is conscious of grave sin is not to celebrate Mass or receive the body of the Lord without previous sacramental confession unless there is a grave reason and there is no opportunity to confess; in this case the person is to remember the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition which includes the resolution of confessing as soon as possible.
By your logic, because the Church has not published a list of mortal sins, it could be concluded that it is impossible to know what is and is not a mortal sin or impossible to teach what is and is not a mortal sin.
That there is no “list” does not mean the Church has not made it abundantly clear that there is a grave duty to attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation. The Church did so in the documents of Vatican II (so no, they didn’t get rid of that obligation…)
*Accordingly the sacred Council has seen fit to decree as follows.
- By a tradition handed down from the apostles which took its origin from the very day of Christ’s resurrection, the Church celebrates the paschal mystery every eighth day; with good reason this, then, bears the name of the Lord’s day or Sunday. For on this day Christ’s faithful are bound to come together into one place so that; by hearing the word of God and taking part in the eucharist, they may call to mind the passion, the resurrection and the glorification of the Lord Jesus, and may thank God who “has begotten them again, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto a living hope” (1 Pet. 1:3). Hence the Lord’s day is the original feast day, and it should be proposed to the piety of the faithful and taught to them so that it may become in fact a day of joy and of freedom from work. Other celebrations, unless they be truly of greatest importance, shall not have precedence over the Sunday which is the foundation and kernel of the whole liturgical year. *Sacrosanctum Concilium, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, solemnly promulgated by His Holiness Pope Paul VI, Dec. 4, 1963
**Can. 1246 §1. **Sunday, on which by apostolic tradition the paschal mystery is celebrated, must be observed in the universal Church as the primordial holy day of obligation. The following days must also be observed: the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Epiphany, the Ascension, the Body and Blood of Christ, Holy Mary the Mother of God, her Immaculate Conception, her Assumption, Saint Joseph, Saint Peter and Saint Paul the Apostles, and All Saints.
**§2. **With the prior approval of the Apostolic See, however, the conference of bishops can suppress some of the holy days of obligation or transfer them to a Sunday.
**Can. 1247 **On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are obliged to participate in the Mass.
Moreover, they are to abstain from those works and affairs which hinder the worship to be rendered to God, the joy proper to the Lord’s day, or the suitable relaxation of mind and body.
Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.
§2. If participation in the eucharistic celebration becomes impossible because of the absence of a sacred minister or for another grave cause, it is strongly recommended that the faithful take part in a liturgy of the word if such a liturgy is celebrated in a parish church or other sacred place according to the prescripts of the diocesan bishop or that they devote themselves to prayer for a suitable time alone, as a family, or, as the occasion permits, in groups of families.*
Now you know…the Church has declared this to be an obligation.
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PolarGuy
Guest
Sigh. Another day, another thread where Catholics are prepared to say who’s in mortal sin and who is isn’t.
You’re right, easterjoy, by my logic it is impossible to say what is and what isn’t mortal sin, for all others except ourselves, because we cannot know others’ hearts; their degree of knowing whether what they do is serious; their quiet reasons (which may be good or bad) for doing what they do; etc. Since the Church has never declared anyone to be in hell, who is anyone here to say who will and who won’t go there?
And to reiterate: there is no list of mortal sins in existence; and the CCD teacher was this factually wrong to say what they said (and they were pretty mean too)
You’re right, easterjoy, by my logic it is impossible to say what is and what isn’t mortal sin, for all others except ourselves, because we cannot know others’ hearts; their degree of knowing whether what they do is serious; their quiet reasons (which may be good or bad) for doing what they do; etc. Since the Church has never declared anyone to be in hell, who is anyone here to say who will and who won’t go there?
And to reiterate: there is no list of mortal sins in existence; and the CCD teacher was this factually wrong to say what they said (and they were pretty mean too)
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PaulinVA
Guest
No, just* what is* a mortal sin.
You are debating culpability and forgiveness, not objectively grave matter.
You are saying that the examples from canon law and the Catechism are not pertinent. Could you explain why? Further, could you please elaborate on how you have arrived at this breakthrough position that has eluded the best theological and canon law minds throughout the centuries?
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EasterJoy
Guest
Uh, uh, uh…no one said anything about condemning some particular person. We are talking about what acts have the gravity necessary for a mortal sin. No one has ever said there can be no extenuating circumstances that excuse one from the obligation or that impede the exercise of free will. No, this thread is about whether or not the seriousness of the action is grave, such that someone who willfully and knowingly did it would be bound to judge themselves guilty of a mortal sin.
Catholics are prepared to say what has the gravity of a mortal sin because the Church has the right and duty to infallibly teach on matters of morals.
Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly whenever, even though dispersed through the world, but still maintaining the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter, and authentically teaching matters of faith and morals, they are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held.(40) This is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church, whose definitions must be adhered to with the submission of faith.(41*) *Lumen Gentium, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, solemnly promulgated by Pope Paul VI, Nov. 21, 1964
We would be doing you a disservice if we were to pretend to you that there is no obligation to attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation, and any catechist who does not teach this precept of the Church very clearly also fails his or her students in a serious manner. It is not mean to teach that this is true, then. It would be mean to understand this teaching yet to fail to teach something so fundamental to a fellow Catholic who is ignorant of the teaching. That doesn’t mean the truth cannot be taught in an uncharitable way! Of course it could be taught in an uncharitable way and of course the lack of charity would an offense. No, I only mean only to say that it is uncharitable to give someone the impression that you are teaching them the faith, but instead failing to teach it by choosing willful or neglectful omission of central truths that you have a duty to teach. To willfully alter what the Church teaches in favor of one’s own opinion, but giving the impression that one’s opinion is the true teaching? That would be even worse.
The reason the Church has never declared anyone to be in hell is shown in the Catechism’s treatment of suicide: “We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. the Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.” In other words, it is not because we can’t know whether or not suicide has the gravity of a mortal sin! It does, and the Church infallibly teaches the instances in which it does! We can’t know who Is in hell because we cannot know a) whether or not honest ignorance of moral law or a “grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture” existed to diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide or b) because we can’t know whether or not God provided the person committing suicide an opportunity for salutary repentance of which we are not aware.
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CatholicRaven
Guest
I think you’re confusing judging the sin with judging the sinner. They are two different things. We cannot determine whether another person has themselves committed a mortal sin, but that is not the same as saying that a particular action is/isn’t, objectively, a mortal sin (grave matter).
Remember that God is like our parent. As a parent myself, there are things my kids may do that I do not want them to do (especially things that can do them harm). If they know better, they get in trouble when they take wrong action, even if I have not specifically stated that this action is wrong. An example: My toddler recently smashed grapes into the carpet. She wasn’t knowingly doing something wrong, she simply doesn’t know any better, so she didn’t “get in trouble” (though I did instruct her so that she will learn that it’s wrong). But my 4th grade son knows that it is wrong to smash grapes into the carpet and that if he does so he will get in big trouble–even though I have never actually stated that “thou shalt not smash grapes into the carpet” is a “rule!”
One reason the Church does not have an “official list” of sins is because we human beings are so creative, we’d never be able to get ALL possible sins on the list! Invariably, some people would assume that if it’s not on “the list,” that it is therefore not evil/sinful (I can see it now: “Thou shalt not smash food of any kind into thy mother’s carpet”). We’re always coming up with new and different ways to sin (back in Moses’ time, they didn’t have the internet, for instance)… and creative excuses along with them.
OP, our relationship with God should be loving. Just as we should try to please the one we love and try to avoid those things that displease or dishonor him/her, so we should be trying to learn how to please God, and when we discover that something displeases or dishonors Him, we should then try to avoid it. Not because He’s “keeping score,” but because WE LOVE HIM and want to show that love!
Hope that’s helpful.
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Book_Worm
Guest
This is something I struggle with as a first-grade CCD teacher. I would estimate that about 30 percent of my students attend Mass every week, another 30 per cent or so attend occasionally, and there are some that almost never go. How to you let these children know that theirs families have a serious obligation to attend without alienating the parents so much that they stop sending their children to CCD? Or else set up a situation where the parents begin to discount everything that you are trying to impart.
I try to emphasize how important attending Mass is and how God loves to see them once a week. The older classes are rewarded for being able to discuss the gospel message they heard that week. Our curriculum doesn’t delve too deeply into sin in first grade; I assume that Penance prep in second grade discusses it in greater detail.
I just don’t get the mindset. How much can you say you love God if you don’t even bother to spend one measly hour a week worshipping him and participating in the Eucharistic Sacrifice?
I try to emphasize how important attending Mass is and how God loves to see them once a week. The older classes are rewarded for being able to discuss the gospel message they heard that week. Our curriculum doesn’t delve too deeply into sin in first grade; I assume that Penance prep in second grade discusses it in greater detail.
I just don’t get the mindset. How much can you say you love God if you don’t even bother to spend one measly hour a week worshipping him and participating in the Eucharistic Sacrifice?
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EasterJoy
Guest
Our pastor gave a First Holy Communion homily once in which he told the first communicants that they had a right to be there every Sunday, and that they had his permission to roll their parents out of bed to get there.
It is not just “God loves to see you” once a week. Sunday is our great communal celebration of the Resurrection–every week, a little Easter! The Mass is “the source and summit of the Christian life,” which I translated as the best and highest thing we can do, the thing that Jesus gave us to roll us back into His life and sends us out with His strength and life to do what Christians are to do. “I am the vine…” and all of that. Sometimes we are tempted to skip things that we need, like eating and sleeping and going to Mass. We need to be careful to only skip those things when we really have to, and plan our lives so that does not happen very often, or not at all.
We are obliged to go to Mass and pay attention while we are there because we need what only the Mass has to give. We are obliged to go on Sunday because we need to need Mass together. Even if we go to Sunday Mass with ten other people, we are “together” with everyone else all over the world who finds a Sunday Mass to attend. It is a grave obligation because we have a grave need. Some of us don’t know it, but some of us don’t know what foods are body needs, either. If we just eat what we like, we don’t usually get what we need. If we just do what we like and pray the way we feel like praying, the same is true.
With regards to teaching precepts, always go back to “we learn the precepts so we will know what we ought to do. We don’t learn them so we can guess at whether someone else who doesn’t seem to be doing them has a good enough reason. If you are not here at Mass every Sunday, though, we hope that you and your parents are going somewhere. If you don’t go anywhere at all, we hope it is a very important reason. It is so very important.” If a child asks what is an important enough reason to miss, you say: “Well, you don’t drive yet, and you aren’t old enough to decide when you’re too sick to go or some other reason. If you have a way to go, you ought to go. If your parents wonder about when it is OK to not go, they can ask Father. He didn’t put me here to teach them. He put me here to teach you. If they need teaching, Father will take care of that.”
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1ke
Guest
I’ve never watered it down or beat around the bush. The commandments are the commandments and the precepts are the precepts.
When kids pipe up that they don’t go or their parents don’t take them, and ask if they are sinning, my standard answer is, “Can you drive yourself to church?” The answer is “no”. I then say, “when you can get to church under your own power, then it’s your responsibility to make sure you do. Until then, it’s your parent’s.”
I’ve never had any parent say anything, nor pull their kids out of CCD. Those that aren’t going know they are in the wrong. If you talk to them about it, they will admit it. Sometimes they change their behavior, sometimes they don’t.
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Paleocon
Guest
“I didn’t realize that. We’ll go every Sunday from now on. You didn’t commit a mortal sin by missing in the past since you have no way of getting there without me.”
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Blessedwithfive
Guest
I have been a CCD for twenty years and last year I took over my sons Confirmation Class from another teacher. After speaking to the kids about the sacrament of confession I mentioned off handily that missing mass was a mortal sin according to the church. They looked at me like I was crazy. I told them if they didn’t really know, then they got a pass on the sin, but now they know. These were fifteen year old kids. Imagine my surprise when a few parents complained to the paster and he called me into his office to let me know that we don’t really teach that any more. It might make some parents uncomfortable to hear going to Mass is required. Now what do I do? I haven’t felt the same about this church since and I would leave and go to another Catholic Church down the street but I’m pretty involved in this church.
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henpecked
Guest
wow. Don’t know what to tell you. I haven’t heard “mortal sin” from the pulpit in many many years. I actually learned from the pulpit that the 10 Commandments are not really rules, just guidelines.
The parish priests are in a pickle; how to keep attendance up (and collections up) and not scare off the attendance. Any more nowadays you say something that’s not happy or makes somebody feel bad, they will leave and complain loudly.
The parish priests are in a pickle; how to keep attendance up (and collections up) and not scare off the attendance. Any more nowadays you say something that’s not happy or makes somebody feel bad, they will leave and complain loudly.
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EasterJoy
Guest
This is spot on. Many Catholics did not receive this teaching when they were in religious education as children. Instead of holy days of obligation, some people even say “holy days of opportunity,” as if an obligation must be some onerous thing. It is fine to stress that duties can be enjoyable, and even a good thing, but it does people a disservice to give them the idea that the necessary is not necessary.
God reads hearts, and God knows who really knew that they had an obligation and who didn’t know. Even among those who knew it was a rule, many didn’t know it was truly binding obligation for contemporary people. Even among those who knew the law is still gravely binding and chose to ignore it or to pretend otherwise, all that is required is to repent, confess, and do better in the future. A confessor is not going to beat a contrite person up, and anyone who isn’t a confessor can just mind their own business about it.
If you aren’t sure when the obligation is excused, ask your pastor to explain it. Our pastor, for instance, once chided parishioners who came to Sunday Mass even though the icy condition of the sidewalks and roads put them at high risk for a fall that could be fatal, given their age and physical condition. He chided people who came with easily communicable diseases that could put an older parishioner in the hospital. It is not heroic to be foolish. It is possible to be misinformed and overly strict, not just misinformed and overly lax.
Knowing what I know now, if I had a pastor who told me that our parish has stopped teaching the precepts of the Church, I’d ask him if we could go see the vicar of clergy or the archdiocesan head of religious education together, so I could get assurance that the archbishop was in agreement on that point. Once you know that your parish is systematically misleading religious education students, you have to say something to your bishop about it. He deserves to know where this is going on.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Many people also do not realize that there is an obligation to receive the Sacrament of Confirmation, or an obligation to receive Holy Communion at least once a year. You can’t force anyone to seek a sacrament, but you also shouldn’t give young people the impression that participation in the life of the Church is optional any more than you ought to tell them that the food needed for good health is entirely up to them. As it is, people force their children to have educations that are necessary for financial advancement, but do not even strongly encourage confirmation or going to confession.
If you consider yourself a member of the Church, you ought to seek to be confirmed when you can:
*Can. 889 §1. Every baptized person not yet confirmed and only such a person is capable of receiving confirmation.
**§2. **To receive confirmation licitly outside the danger of death requires that a person who has the use of reason be suitably instructed, properly disposed, and able to renew the baptismal promises.
**Can. 890 **The faithful are obliged to receive this sacrament at the proper time. Parents and pastors of souls, especially pastors of parishes, are to take care that the faithful are properly instructed to receive the sacrament and come to it at the appropriate time.
**Can. 891 *The sacrament of confirmation is to be conferred on the faithful at about the age of discretion unless the conference of bishops has determined another age, or there is danger of death, or in the judgment of the minister a grave cause suggests otherwise.
If you consider yourself a member of the Church, you ought to seek to be confirmed when you can:
*Can. 889 §1. Every baptized person not yet confirmed and only such a person is capable of receiving confirmation.
**§2. **To receive confirmation licitly outside the danger of death requires that a person who has the use of reason be suitably instructed, properly disposed, and able to renew the baptismal promises.
**Can. 890 **The faithful are obliged to receive this sacrament at the proper time. Parents and pastors of souls, especially pastors of parishes, are to take care that the faithful are properly instructed to receive the sacrament and come to it at the appropriate time.
**Can. 891 *The sacrament of confirmation is to be conferred on the faithful at about the age of discretion unless the conference of bishops has determined another age, or there is danger of death, or in the judgment of the minister a grave cause suggests otherwise.
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kmmb_68
Guest
Wow. This is Canon law? I thought it was just a suggestion/good practice to rest on Sunday if possible. So is it a sin to shingle the shed (very hard work/not relaxing in my book) on Sunday after mass?
Here are some more random first thoughts:
A possible response to my DD may include something like, “God knows that shooting and killing your neighbor is a worse sin than is missing mass because of a difficult, though not entirely impossible, but nonetheless difficult situation. Only God knows people’s true hearts, so we should never judge people–that is His job.” I would have to work on the vocabulary so it would be at DC’s level, though.
I feel that there are instances of making incorrect assumptions in more than one of the replies here, but I suppose that is probably to be expected, as I would also expect it in face to face conversations to a certain degree. I probably do it myself more than I realize.
I think I like these boards. I should visit more often.
God is good.
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EasterJoy
Guest
My first response is just that: a) there are lots of places to go to Mass, not just our parish and b) we don’t know why people who don’t go haven’t been going. Finding out is not our job. If they ask us if it is a serious obligation, though, we should say, “yes, although there are reasons that excuse a person from attending Mass on Sundays, ordinarily it is a serious obligation.”
As for shooting and killing your neighbor, sometimes that isn’t a mortal sin, either.
I was taught that it is not allowed to do unnecessary servile work on Sundays. Somebody has to staff the hospitals, for instance, and obviously the cows have to be milked. This rule doesn’t mean that doing the dishes has to wait until Monday. It is allowed to take a job that requires you to work on Sundays. It is allowed to have a parish fundraiser on a Sunday, because that is “giving alms.” If it is going to rain and the harvest will be ruined if it has to wait until Monday, that’s a reason to do hard work on Sundays. It is possible that your neighbor has work to do that he cannot do at any other time and that he cannot afford to have done by someone else, so it essentially has to be done at least partly on Sunday, lest a structure be ruined.
If the work can be done at another time, though, that’s when it ought to be done. I am very bad about this, because I spend too much time online during the week, which pushes some work that doesn’t belong on a Sunday onto a Sunday, because it has to be done by Monday morning. That is something I need to work on myself!
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JimG
Guest
I agree that a CCD teacher who teaches Catholic truth is doing an excellent job.
It is true that one cannot know the state of another’s soul. But the whole purpose of teaching children, at least one purpose, is to teach them right from wrong.
It would be correct to say, “Yes, it is a mortal sin to miss Mass on Sundays and Holy Day’s or their vigils on purpose and without a serious reason.”
Children need to know the rules. It’s often counterproductive to get too much into the permutations of moral theology with them. One tells the child: “Don’t throw a brick at your brother’s head! That’s wrong!” It might be counterproductive to say, “Well, it’s wrong to throw a brick at your brother’s head, unless you didn’t fully realize what you were doing or had a good reason for doing it!”
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St_Francis
Guest
If you’re saying what I suspect you’re saying, when I learned (unfortunately very late in my child-rearing time) is that when we see someone doing the wrong thing, I explain that for some reason, they seem not to know better, and we should be grateful that we are not in their situation where we don’t know better, *and we pray for that person. *
So a conversation might go like this: Mom, John does have to go to Mass every week, why do I?
Mother: John, I don’t know why John doesn’t get to go to Mass every week; it’s really very sad. Maybe his parents don’t know how good it is to go every week, and so we should be grateful that we know! So let’s say a prayer for John and his family that they learn this too.
It would be nice to see you more often
He is indeed!
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Spelf
Guest
If you have any doubts of the validity of what’s said in this thread, make sure to confirm it worth your local pastor/bishop (they will tell you the same).
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phillylawyer
Guest
“For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”” CCC 1857
If you are saying that nobody can judge a particular act and deem that to be mortal sin, you are correct. It is NOT true that missing mass for unjust reasons on Sunday is de facto a mortal sin.
In for an act to be a mortal sin, it must be (1) grave, (2) done with full knowledge and (3) deliberate consent. Missing mass on Sunday without a just reason satisfies (1). However, in any particular instance, no one (besides God) can judge whether it satisfies (2) or (3) and thus whether that action relating to grave matter is in fact a mortal sin.
For those who are into football, it’s equivalent of asking whether knocking down a wide receiver when the quarterback throws him the ball is pass interference. It can be, if it happens before the ball reaches the receiver, the ball has not been previously tipped, and the ball is not “uncatchable” for example (football experts can probably add more clarifications.
The point is, knocking down a WR when the QB throws the ball to him is Potentially a pass interference penalty, but is not necessarily. The other prongs have to be satisfied. Not a perfect analogy, but since it is football season…
That being said, if you know that missing mass on Sunday without a just reason is a grave matter, I probably wouldn’t risk it and hope you slide by under prongs (2) or (3) some Sundays. Trying to outwit God’s rules doesn’t seem like a good approach to life.
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