De-Europeanization of Europe: Sowing the Seeds for a Re-Christianization?

[Ricardus]

This speculation may be pretty far out on a limb, but for what it’s worth, here is an intriguing question that I have heard brought up in other Catholic circles elsewhere:

In light of the current demographic decline of nominally Christian Europe (with birth rates well below replacement levels due to contraception, abortion, and post-poned marriage), and in light of the current demographic increase of Muslim Europe (with birth rates at or well above replacement levels, not to mention unprecedented Muslim immigration into Europe), it would seem that an already secular, largely post-Christian Europe is now being slowly de-Europeanized as well.

In light of this, would it be fair to speculate that maybe, just maybe, Our Lord, in His Divine Plan, is allowing this to happen as a way of sowing the seeds for a future New Evangelization and re-Christianization of Europe, involving, of all things, a possible conversion of a substantial number of Muslim Europeans, inspired in some way perhaps by Our Lady’s intercession—in light of the fact that there is already a certain devotion to the Virgin Mary among at least one or more branches of Islam, and especially in light of the irony that Our Lady chose to appear in a humble little Portuguese hamlet named after one of Mohammed’s daughters, namely Fatima?

In other words, to make a long question somewhat shorter, do you think it is possible that Our Lord may someday use this unprecedented decrease of mostly secular Christian Europe and the increase of mostly religious Muslim Europe as a possible springboard for a re-Christianization of the continent, led in no small part perhaps by a unprecendented conversion of Muslims to the Catholic Faith?

 

[meedo]

Wouldnt it be easier to Just give them HUGE tax cuts for people with babies . Or install in their education as kids that if peopel dont have babies then they will be instinct?

I dont know . I love Mary Mother of Jesus but i never ever imagined worshipping her . Its clear in the Quran that Allah tells us that who ever worship her will be in hellfire forever so i guess its hard to make muslims embrace that concept .

As for the lady Fatima thing , it was said that Mary appeared in Egypt , i asked my uncle , my uncle tells me that the Egyptian secret service caught the guy who was living infront of the church that this Image was seen , with some advanced light Equipment and stuff. I dont know if he was an Orthodox christian or catholic . But as the SS went into his house the vision disappeared. I dont know what happened afterwards.

The Image would appear only at night because it wouldnt be good visible at day .

At least that is what my Uncle told me .

Peace

 

[A.Pelliccio]

Well whatever it is lets hope we see some light at the end of tunnel. I never doubt the Lord but it hurts to watch his church suffers. I offer it up to him as sacrifice but its just disheartning.

As for converting the sarcean horde I would much rather convert t hem in occupied christian lands instead of lands that are soon to be occupied christian lands.

 

[meedo]

"Well whatever it is lets hope we see some light at the end of tunnel. I never doubt the Lord but it hurts to watch his church suffers. I offer it up to him as sacrifice but its just disheartning.

As for converting the sarcean horde I would much rather convert t hem in occupied christian lands instead of lands that are soon to be occupied christian lands."

Saracen hordes? wow man take it easy !! i dont think muslims even make 5 % of Europe.

By the way. I am a muslim all my life and i just want to knwo what the hec does “Saracen” mean ?!

and who invented this word !!

 

[Ricardus]

meedo:

I love Mary Mother of Jesus but i never ever imagined worshipping her . Its clear in the Quran that Allah tells us that who ever worship her will be in hellfire forever so i guess its hard to make muslims embrace that concept .

Meedo,

I assure you that Catholic and Orthodox Christians do not worship Mary. We honor her and pray for her intercession, but do not give her our worship, which is reserved only for Almighty God.

This Catholic Answers web site is a wonderful resource to learn more about the Catholic faith, including our veneration of the Virgin Mary. We invite you to browse through this web site for more related information.

Thank you for your feedback!

Ricardus

 

[A.Pelliccio]

Saracen:
1.A member of a pre-Islamic nomadic people of the Syrian-Arabian deserts.
2.An Arab.
3.A Muslim, especially of the time of the Crusades.

 

[meedo]

Hmm , so i am a Saracen. I shoudl start to carry my scimitar with me lol.

 

[Reuben_J]

meedo:

Wouldnt it be easier to Just give them HUGE tax cuts for people with babies . Or install in their education as kids that if peopel dont have babies then they will be instinct?

I dont know . I love Mary Mother of Jesus but i never ever imagined worshipping her . Its clear in the Quran that Allah tells us that who ever worship her will be in hellfire forever so i guess its hard to make muslims embrace that concept .

As for the lady Fatima thing , it was said that Mary appeared in Egypt , i asked my uncle , my uncle tells me that the Egyptian secret service caught the guy who was living infront of the church that this Image was seen , with some advanced light Equipment and stuff. I dont know if he was an Orthodox christian or catholic . But as the SS went into his house the vision disappeared. I dont know what happened afterwards.

The Image would appear only at night because it wouldnt be good visible at day .

At least that is what my Uncle told me .

Peace

Worshipping Mary? Anybody long enough in this forum would understand by now that this is a non-issue. If you are implying that Catholics worship Mary by saying that you don’t yourself, would not contribute to any goodwill to anyone. So that statement is not useful. Sure Islam definition of worship put us as worshipping Mary. Even if that is so, you would know our answer to that. We don’t worship her. Thus to harp on this does not help at all. It would be wise to let it go at that.

As for the vision of Mary - this is private revelation. She appears to those whom grace is given to have this privilege of experiencing her. There is no way we can prove or disprove this. In the context of respecting each other belief, little is achieved by belittling this phenomenum.

On the other hand, since it is a private revelation it is not mandatory for another Catholic to agree or believe in any of the specific apparition (the appearance of Mary).

Nevertheless, one would be wise to look at the fruit of the apparition. For many Catholics, inspiration by the apparition and the messages it contained, have led them into deeper faith and being more prayerful. If that happens, there is no harm but for the good the faithfuls. I would see apparition in this light. I guess for you Muslims, this is just information what Catholics experience in their spiritual life or walk.

 

[Franze]

I want to be optimistic, I need to be it.

 

[meedo]

Well, in Islam , asking Intercession by someone who is dead is worshipping . I am sorry i didnt make that clear and i appologise if i offended any body .

Thank you for tolerating me .

Peace

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam Brother Ricardus;

Ricardus:

In light of this, would it be fair to speculate that maybe, just maybe, Our Lord, in His Divine Plan, is allowing this to happen as a way of sowing the seeds for a future New Evangelization and re-Christianization of Europe, involving, of all things, a possible conversion of a substantial number of Muslim Europeans, inspired in some way perhaps by Our Lady’s intercession—in light of the fact that there is already a certain devotion to the Virgin Mary among at least one or more branches of Islam, and especially in light of the irony that Our Lady chose to appear in a humble little Portuguese hamlet named after one of Mohammed’s daughters, namely Fatima?

You are right Brother, we hold the pious and devout Mary, the mother of Jesus (PBUH) in high esteem along with her son, we love them both, that is because Allah (SWT) has chosen Mary above all the women, however we don’t have any kind of devotion to her; or to be more specific, we don’t have any kind of devotion to any human, dead or alive, our sole devotion is to Allah (SWT).

I need to make a short statement before going any further: please brothers and sisters reading the following, what I write here is from a Muslim perspective, my only objective is to help you understand where we are coming from. It is not my intent to offend anyone of you or accuse anyone of you of anything. Thank you”

Brother Ricardus, if you study Islam, you will find there is two types of shirk (associating partners with Allah); the greater shirk and the lesser shirk.

The greater shirk removes someone from the fold of Islam and makes him Mushrik (idolater). Forms of greater shirk is to offer sacrifice to someone else except Allah (SWT), to invoke, supplicate someone (live or dead) or pray to him/her beside Allah (SWT), to visit a tomb of a dead person believing that it has some kind of power etc.

The lesser (or minor) shirk does not remove someone from the fold of Islam but nonetheless is a grave sin to repent from diligently; forms of lesser shirk are the showing off (i.e. doing a religious act to impress people or to gain a reputation of a religious person or any other worldly goal), swearing by other names than the name of Allah (SWT), carrying an object believing that it ward off the evil eye for example, and in general, any act of worship done insincerely under false pretences is a lesser shirk.
More about shirk here

Muslims make the following prayer: “My Lord, I seek refuge with You from associating anything with You knowingly, and I seek Your forgiveness for that of which I am unaware”

Brother Ricardus;
Do you think that in light of the above, the pious Mary would ever be a factor in converting Muslims to Catholicism?

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[sainted]

As with regards to the initial query about a regenerating europe. No the time is up. God has given many chances and people always seem to look for Him only in times of trouble. God has spoken. God has revealed Himself in His Son. The Word has become flesh. The Truth has been proclaimed around the world firstly in the east and europe.

Saddly Holy Scriptures tell us of chaos and confusion to come in the end days and is here already. All these begin to happen when the world starts to reject God. It has already occured firstly by Islam denying the revealed Truth of God in the Son and in believing a false prophet, and Christianity itself in its love of power, greed, wealth, materialism, pride and accepting all kinds of philosophies and beliefs as truth. Finally and never the Least regarding European Union its rejecting the name of God in their constitution.

So really there is no turning back we are on our way to Judgement Day!

 

[rkberlin]

Well, I live in Europe and they DO give people huge tax relief to have children ( which is probably why more confessing Muslims have children than Christians ).Christianity has been thoroughly secularized here, and you’re being smiled and frowned upon if you confess you attend Mass regularly. Especially here in Berlin there is a huge number of Muslims who seem to ‘be taking over’ slowly but surely as a main religion ( this was a statment, no accusation! ). As for worshipping Mary, PLEASE! Let’s just move on and stop that stereotype once and for all. Worship is reserved for God the Almighty alone, not the Virgin Mother, whom we pray to for help.
Peace and God bless you

meedo:

Wouldnt it be easier to Just give them HUGE tax cuts for people with babies . Or install in their education as kids that if peopel dont have babies then they will be instinct?

I dont know . I love Mary Mother of Jesus but i never ever imagined worshipping her . Its clear in the Quran that Allah tells us that who ever worship her will be in hellfire forever so i guess its hard to make muslims embrace that concept .

As for the lady Fatima thing , it was said that Mary appeared in Egypt , i asked my uncle , my uncle tells me that the Egyptian secret service caught the guy who was living infront of the church that this Image was seen , with some advanced light Equipment and stuff. I dont know if he was an Orthodox christian or catholic . But as the SS went into his house the vision disappeared. I dont know what happened afterwards.

The Image would appear only at night because it wouldnt be good visible at day .

At least that is what my Uncle told me .

Peace

 

[manualman]

meedo:

Hmm , so i am a Saracen. I shoudl start to carry my scimitar with me lol.

You mean you DON’T!?!

LOL, It would be a rather dashing fashion statement, wouldn’t it?