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fakename
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What things in Catholicism are known only by faith?
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Pfaffenhoffen
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Shike
Guest
Actually monotheism and the existence of God can be known by reason alone. If you’re looking for a source to back this up it’s in the catechism, here’s at least one area that talks about it: scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c1.htm
Yes, ‘God’ could be on your list as understood by the revelation of the Church, but the mere existence or monotheism in general could not be on your list.
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PRmerger
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The Trinity.
The canon of Scripture.
God’s plan of salvation.
To trust in our reason.
God is love.
Creatio ex nihilo.
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fhansen
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I don’t think a person can know that the resurrection actually occurred or that *God is love *except by the gift of faith.
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Katholish
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“to trust in our reason” is certainly something we know without revelation, otherwise all human knowledge would be undermined at the foundation.
I would argue that “God is love” is also knowable by reason alone being an attribute of the Divine Nature. It may not be the most apparent of the attributes, but is logically demonstrable from God’s goodness.
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Pfaffenhoffen
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Anathama_Sit
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Greetings Fakename,
Easily answered all that pertains to supernatural knowledge.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church [emphasis mine]
God Bless.
Anathama Sit
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PRmerger
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Blaise Pascal argued that trusting in our reason is actually an act of FAITH, for if we use reason to argue that reason must be trusted we are committing the logical fallacy of begging the question, that is, assuming that which we are trying to prove.
Perhaps a better way for me to have said this is: We know by revelation that God loved us so much he died for us. That can only be known by faith, not reason.
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Katholish
Guest
I am not an expert on Pascal, but the fundamental reliability of the senses is something I know a little about. The entire body of Catholic philosophy is founded on the reliability of the senses and of reason indepedent of Divine Revelation. In fact, to say that trusting our reason requires an act of faith contradicts the Church’s de fide teaching. That is not a claim I make lightly, so an example. At Vatican I, it was solemnly defined that God could be known through reason alone, that it took no act of revelation for man to know God’s existence with certainty. To say that trusting reason itself requires an act of Faith and revelation denies is important dogma.
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Shike
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Seems like there is some equivocation going on here with the word faith and/or trust.
It seems like we have to trust the reliability of the senses. We do not have faith in the senses, however, because an act of faith is to trust in divine revelation, and that we should trust in the senses is not something divinely revealed.
But often times we colloquially use trust and faith interchangeably.
Does that sound right?
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John_Russell_Jr
Guest
… my dear friend ,
… all people know all and not just religious teachings by faith , this is because none of us can absolutely prove anything at all bar one thing – that we exist ourselves , and we can only prove this to ourself alone , we know this because we have experiences , we can’t prove who or what we are , we may be another being dreaming away that we’re having this human life etc , it’s true you know and a very misunderstood subject this faith , the normal modus operandi for all human belief is faith , not well known but true , we can still believe we have proof on the basis of our faith , and indeed humans can and must do this or they’ll have no absolutes and go insane …
… faith and reason not only have no conflict they are so united they are one when thoroughly understood also …
… may god bless and love you
,… john …
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Shike
Guest
Sounds like you have proven two things here: that we can prove our own existence and that it is the only thing that we can prove. Good luck with that.
Really, some of Descartes philosophy needs to be forgotten. The cogito was already discovered by thinkers such as Augustine in the 5th century A.D. (and probably earlier). The problem with Descartes’ cogito, is that because he denies the reliability of the senses and then comes to his cogito, the words are pretty much devoid of content. What is an ‘I’ if you destroy any reliability in the senses? Good luck with that too!
ciao,
Michael
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John_Russell_Jr
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… my dear friend ,
Definition of COGITO
1
: the philosophic principle that one’s existence is demonstrated by the fact that one thinks
2
: the intellectual processes of the self or ego
Origin of COGITO
New Latin cogito, ergo sum, literally, I think, therefore I am, principle stated by René Descartes First Known Use: 1838
… i’m saying the normal modus operandi for all human belief bar that one thing is faith , regardless of what others say this is true , i don’t restrict that one thing to thnking but to all exp incl senses and mystical exp and any exp , i don’t say we can’t have absolutes of proof but rather we must achieve all absolute proofs on the basis of faith and this is fine and how humans must operate , when we see anything for instance we don’t see it at all , we see the light reflection of it hitting our eyes and going into our mind for processing etc for instance , we totally rely on faith , i see this as normal and acceptable , i don’t say we should doubt anything just because we must believe it on the basis of faith , and it has serious consequences for say atheists among others who insist on proof god exist when we not only must believe this on faith but everything , there are varying degrees of absoluteness in our faith based beliefs of course , i’m not necessarily trying to prove or disprove anything , i’m just stating truth as i understand it , and i think this subject and word faith are rather misunderstood dear friend …
… we have various means to achieve higher certainty of our faith beliefs such as confirmaTION FROM RELIABLE SOURCES OUTSIDE OURSELVES , INCL OTHER PEOPLE , WE CAN USE OUR MIND ETC , AND EVEN SERIOUSLY MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE WHO CANNOT TRIUST VERY MUCH DUE TO HALLUCINATIONS , DELUSIONS , A WILD IMAGINATION ETC HAVE WAYS TO RECTIFY THEIR FALSE FAITH BELIEFS IF NEEDS BE WITH OTHERS AND DOCTORS ETC , THERE’S MANY WAYS WE NEED TO VERIFY OUR FAITH BELIEFS AND IT IS NOT RESTRICTED TO GOD AND THE THINGS OF GOD , I BELIEVE IN ABSOLUTE PROOFS BEING MORE THAN POSSIBLE BUT ACTUAL ON THE BASIS OF FAITH , A TERRIBLE CONSEQUENCE OF THE FALL WAS THE LOSS OF THE PRETERNATURAL GIFTS WHICH MEANT MAN LOST THE GIFT OF PERFECT FAITH , AND THIS MAY MAKE MY VIEWS HERE HARD TO UNDERSTAND , and i’m sorry caps lock went on , drives me nuts , i’ll take more care in future dear friend …
… may god bless and love you
,… john …
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Shike
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Perhaps Augustine didn’t have the exact wording but he had the same idea.
Also, I think the way you use the word ‘faith’ is misleading. You seem to use it as synonymous with ‘trust’. It’s confusing to those who are used to using faith and reason in conjunction with each other.
Descartes’ cogito is meaningless because of his radical skepticism.
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John_Russell_Jr
Guest
… my dear friend ,
… i see faith as reasonable means to beliefs of absolute proofs under the right criteria , and i see it as reasonable to believe with absolute proofs on the basis of faith under the right criteria , faith is a big word and can also mean trust , but i accept faith as the normal modus operandi for all human belief bar that one thing , and indeed we can build on that one proof we don’t need faith for and develop endless absolute proofs , one of the preternatural gifts man lost was perfect faith but sanctity partially restores this and all preternatural gifts and more and more the more sanctity one has , i’m not saying we can only trust and hope we’re right , we can and do oft know we are absolutely right on the basis of faith – big difference there …
… a quote from our saintly pope below –
ZENIT
The World Seen From Rome
ZE10093007 - 2010-09-30
Pope to Pray for Catholic Universities
VATICAN CITY, SEPT. 30, 2010 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI will be praying in October for Catholic universities, particularly that they might become places where people find a faith-reason unity.
The Apostleship of Prayer announced the intentions chosen by the Pope for October. His general prayer intention is: “That Catholic universities may increasingly become places where, in light of the Gospel, people may experience the unity of faith and reason.”
The Holy Father also chooses an apostolic intention for each month. In October he will pray: “That World Mission Day may help Christians realize that the task of proclaiming Christ is a necessary service to which the Church is called for the benefit of humanity.”
World Mission Day is traditionally celebrated the third Sunday of October.
… may god bless and love you
,… john …
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Shike
Guest
That “one thing”, Descartes’ cogito, isn’t in some special category apart from other proofs from reason, such as the Five Ways of Aquinas.
The way that you use the word ‘faith’ seems to be synonymous with ‘trust’. And in that case, Descartes’ cogito requires trust.
I agree with regards to both definitions of the word ‘faith’.
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fakename
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I think that what the Church means is that some truths of God, are in themselves capable of being known rationally. It doesn’t say that people shouldn’t believe in God by faith, it says that it is not necessary to know God by faith and that ideally, people would know God by reason.
Likewise, in philosophy, it is not necessary to have faith in reason to use reason, but it happens that many times, people do in fact, have a rationality that is backed by faith.
Likewise, in philosophy, it is not necessary to have faith in reason to use reason, but it happens that many times, people do in fact, have a rationality that is backed by faith.
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Shike
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I think you are pretty much right. But I would be more precise and say that it is not necessary to know of the existence of God by faith, it very much could be reached by reason alone. Though it is very necessary to know God by faith, as we cannot fully comprehend Him and we need to know what we’re aiming for in this life. Aquinas talks about this in one of his first few articles in the Summa Theologiae.
I would say that philosophy and the laws of logic need to be accepted by something other than philosophy and the laws of logic… but I wouldn’t call it faith proper, but a mere evidential trust or something similar.
But if you use faith in the same sense as a general trust, then I see no problem.
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