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MusicMan
Guest
As an aside, the “Deacons who want to wear clericals are just wannabe priests” argument exists in a lot of places. Proper or not, it’s going to take a lot to change people’s minds.
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Conciliar
Guest
I think that is true, and part of the reason is because as a group deacons are all over the place with regard to the way they view themselves. There seems to be way too much false humilty in the ranks where many are uncomfortble exerting the priviledges and duties proper to thier sacramental configuration to Christ. Couple that with those whose formation is lacking, and the deacons who understand who they are and are well formed may come off looking like they want to compete with Father, when in reality they are simply living out their calling.
Seminary training of priests should include instruction on how to encourage deacons to live out their vocation fully, so the focus is on the ones who are lacking, not the ones who are accurately reflecting their calling.
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KephasAugustine
Guest
Agreed.If I ever become a deacon, I’m wearing a cassock.
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scylla
Guest
A deacon wearing his clericals would definitely offend the sensibilities of the nuns who want to be come priests. They usually don’t wear habits and this would remind them of the proper order of Catholicism.
This is one reason why you will see opposition to clericals for deacons in some places. “it will confuse people”
So why not unconfuse them and educate them? That should be the answer. Yet is seems that proper Catholic education is not the answer, as it would shed light on too many things.
Deacons should certainly wear clericals when exercising their duties. Not to Wal-Mart with the family though, unless that is part of their clerical duties. Lets say the Deacon is helping the Knights of Columbus raise money for the Handicapped in front of Wal-Mart. There should be no problem with that.
I like the deaconite stole pin, that coupled with blacks would be a great witness for evangelization and catechesis.
In Christ
Scylla
This is one reason why you will see opposition to clericals for deacons in some places. “it will confuse people”
So why not unconfuse them and educate them? That should be the answer. Yet is seems that proper Catholic education is not the answer, as it would shed light on too many things.
Deacons should certainly wear clericals when exercising their duties. Not to Wal-Mart with the family though, unless that is part of their clerical duties. Lets say the Deacon is helping the Knights of Columbus raise money for the Handicapped in front of Wal-Mart. There should be no problem with that.
I like the deaconite stole pin, that coupled with blacks would be a great witness for evangelization and catechesis.
In Christ
Scylla
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Ignatius2000
Guest
This is why I always closely follow threads on the Deaconate where Brendan posts…I hope to be in your shoes in 7~ish years!I’ve already bought mine
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deacondev
Guest
I am a permanent deacon (recently ordained). In our diocese a permanent deacon is asked to wear clerics when he is acting in an official way (at a Wake or other formal prayer service, etc.). There are a few deacons who work for the diocese or a parish on a full time basis who wear their clerics all the time.
However, grey is not an option in our diocese - the official color is black and that’s all our Bishop will allow.
However, grey is not an option in our diocese - the official color is black and that’s all our Bishop will allow.
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PatienceAndLove
Guest
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THurifer2
Guest
Brenden a Bishop has no authority over a deacon when it comes to a deacon dressing in clerical garb. ie: a cassock and collar. Deacons SHOULD wear collars PERIOD. My opinion is the fact that if a deacon is mistaken for a priest by a person seeking confession the deacon is obligated to find a priest for the person. And two people looking for a confessor is better than one.If the local bishop allows his clergy to wear other colors, the Deacon may do so.
In addition, the Deacon may also wear a cassock instead.
Note that in some diocese, the bishops have requested that Deacon’s refrain from wearing clerical garb, as to somehow not confuse the faithful. The Deacon still has the right to do so, the bishop cannot order a cleric to give up rights, but almost all of those who live in such diocese comply with their bishop’s request
.
(Seeing how that would be a great teaching moment on the clerical nature of the Diaconate, I personally cannot see why a bishop would want his flock to remain in ignorance, but that’s just me)
They only two that I know of that make this request are L.A. and Orange, but there may be others.
As Jim noted, ‘permanent’ Deacons are not obligated to wear clerics, and many choose not to, by they do retain the right to do so.
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Andreas_Hofer
Guest
I’m certainly with you that the answer to confusion is to end it through education, not surrender. But I don’t quite understand the half-measure of advocating only wearing clerical garb when performing some sort of diaconal function. Priests are supposed to wear clerical garb all the times unless this would be really awkward (like strenuous exercise; and so as not to derail the thread, I’ll acknowledge that there some people do, indeed, think priests should only wear their blacks when performing sacerdotal duties - I just think they’re wrong and the Church is on my side
). So why should deacons, who are equally clerics and share in the same sacrament, albeit to a lesser degree, not also wear their clerical garb at all times? They don’t stop being a deacon when they’re miniature golfing with the family, and any confusion should be solved through education…
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Chatter163
Guest
Am I the only one here reading this and thinking, “If this 22-year old man can be ordained a deacon, then he** will** convert; otherwise he will not convert?” And the wearing of clericals is apparently a major consideration in the decision? :bigyikes:
The same goes for responses to the post that includes remarks such as, “So if he converts by the time he’s 30, he should be all set.” Many of the posts seem to view the diaconate as an enitlement for all men 35 and over, something that is there for the taking.
There is just a bit more in contemplating a call to holy orders than this. It is not like just trying out a new career. Time, perserverance, spiritual direction and prayer are called for. This goes tenfold for someone who is young and not even Catholic.
The same goes for responses to the post that includes remarks such as, “So if he converts by the time he’s 30, he should be all set.” Many of the posts seem to view the diaconate as an enitlement for all men 35 and over, something that is there for the taking.
There is just a bit more in contemplating a call to holy orders than this. It is not like just trying out a new career. Time, perserverance, spiritual direction and prayer are called for. This goes tenfold for someone who is young and not even Catholic.
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scylla
Guest
Hmm, You do have a good point, as he is ordained it does change his character and makes him into a different kind of person. I concede and agree to your better, more holy point of view. It is the more Catholic point of view that we should sacrifice ourselves in service of Christ. I was wrong in what I said earlier.I’m certainly with you that the answer to confusion is to end it through education, not surrender. But I don’t quite understand the half-measure of advocating only wearing clerical garb when performing some sort of diaconal function. Priests are supposed to wear clerical garb all the times unless this would be really awkward (like strenuous exercise; and so as not to derail the thread, I’ll acknowledge that there some people do, indeed, think priests should only wear their blacks when performing sacerdotal duties - I just think they’re wrong and the Church is on my side
I then agree deacons should wear clericals at all times when in public. (by this I do mean as much as humanly possible in public as a witness to Christ)
Thank you
Scylla
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PatienceAndLove
Guest
I never meant that would be the only reason he would convert. He’s not ready to do anything at this point, as he is barely agnostic. He just said that if he did convert, he would like to be a deacon.
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Brendan
Guest
I agree 99%. The bishop has no true authority to prevent a Deacon from wearing clerics. I was just mentioning what some bishops do.
The 1% I disagree on is that a bishop may choose to allow another color than black; such permission would technically be an excerise of authority
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Brendan
Guest
Permanent Deacons maintain secular employment. For example, what would a Deacon who happens to be a police officer wear? Or a surgeon? Or a Postal Carrier, Or any other position where particular clothing is required or expected.
This is the distinction between the priesthood and the permanent diaconate. In the priesthood, one’s livelyhood is a direct result of their clerical status, in the diaconate that is not the case.
In addition, the Deacon wearing clerics in secular employment could result in people mistakingly believing that the Church is providing a particular sanction to the Deacon.
For example, the Deacon\Lawyer might be arguing a case in a trial and the jury might errornously belive that it is the Deacon is somehow stating an Offical Church position on the guilt or innocence of a particular suspect.
All of these reasons have been deemed sufficent to the Holy Father that he released Permanent Deacons from the obligation (but not the right) to wear clerics.
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Kenpo_Joe
Guest
My cousin was a Navy chaplain for 20 years until his Bishop called him back. In those 20 years, I only saw him in military uniform or civi’s.
It was only after he retired from the Navy that I saw him wearing a collar.
Back on mute.
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Chatter163
Guest
Forgive me. What I was reading was the first post in this thread:
DH (a Baptist) and I were watching Journey Home a few months back, and a deacon was on, wearing greys like this:
And DH wanted to know if all deacons get to wear those. **He has a preoccupation with wanting to be able to wear the clerical blacks **(). I told him I was unaware of specific deacon clerical wear, other than embroidered polos shirts, and that it was possible that deacons had their own clerical wear. Well, he stated that if that was true, he’d convert and become a deacon, just to wear the cool outfit! (the Spirit moves in mysterious ways!)
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PatienceAndLove
Guest
Now I see
I don’t always think through everything as I am writing.
I would say that part of his attraction to possible conversion would be the “awesome clerical garb”, but not all of his attraction.
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PoliSciProf
Guest
An interesting thread about an issue that never occurred to me. After reading the responses, I think that deacons should wear some sort of clerical garb as often as possible. Black seems wrong since it would be confusing for non-catholics to see a married deacon kissing his wife so-long at, say, a shopping mall. Enough scandal has already been given. Decide on a color, explain it and the deaconate and publicize both as widely as possible. The Church might even get some good PR from the media.
The bottom line is the more we all bear public witness to our faith, the better off the Church and society will be.
I assume there are meetings or assemblies of deacons that meet every now and then where matters like this can be discussed. It seems to me that deacons as a group should discuss the issues involved and make appropriate recommendations to their bishops This is a practical matter, not a matter of faith or morals…
The bottom line is the more we all bear public witness to our faith, the better off the Church and society will be.
I assume there are meetings or assemblies of deacons that meet every now and then where matters like this can be discussed. It seems to me that deacons as a group should discuss the issues involved and make appropriate recommendations to their bishops This is a practical matter, not a matter of faith or morals…
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PatienceAndLove
Guest
Hence why I titled this Deacon Grays. The only time I have seen a deacon wearing clericals was on JH, and his were gray. Thus I assumed deacons wore gray. Hope that made sense…
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jmdsc
Guest
Well…there is a group in Tulsa that have designed their own “Deacon Cassock”.
They are a very, very conservative group. Their “Dean” is very strict about what they should and should not wear. Most of them wear clerics!
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