Deacon vested at Mass

[jack_roscoe]

The new GIRM indicates the deacon should kneel after the epiclesis until after the institution narrative. I have not seen this change being implemented. Wonder if it is just my Archdiocese that has not or are others not doing it either?

 

[benedictgal]

The new GIRM indicates the deacon should kneel after the epiclesis until after the institution narrative. I have not seen this change being implemented. Wonder if it is just my Archdiocese that has not or are others not doing it either?

No. It is universall Even Msgr. Marini, Pope Benedict’s MC, kneels at the time frame you listed. Unless the deacon has a condition that impedes him from kneeling, he should be kneeling at the appropriate time. He is not a concelebrant.

 

[Spiller]

The new GIRM indicates the deacon should kneel after the epiclesis until after the institution narrative. I have not seen this change being implemented. Wonder if it is just my Archdiocese that has not or are others not doing it either?

Maybe he has bad knees? I sure hope it isn’t the same thing that keeps the deacon at my parish from kneeling – pride.

 

[Brendan]

The deacons in our parish kneel.

At my old parish, the deacon knelt as well, even though he was well into he 80’s. The parish kept a prie-dieu in the sanctuary for him to use.

 

[Seatuck]

The deacons in our parish kneel.

At my old parish, the deacon knelt as well, even though he was well into he 80’s. The parish kept a prie-dieu in the sanctuary for him to use.

Neither of our deacons can kneel so I think people are forgetting that this is the norm. We did have a deacon who could kneel but he was recently transferred to another parish.

 

[Angel_Bradford]

Our deacon kneels.

 

[Spiller]

Our deacon is able to kneel but he never does – and he never did as an adult server. In fact he used to get upset when servers like me did kneel. [Edited]

 

[benedictgal]

While this particular section doesn’t address the issue of kneeling at the appointed time, it speaks to how a deacon is supposed to conduct himself during the Mass:

[35.] Let them never fail, “as the Apostle says, to hold the mystery of faith with a clear conscience,84 and to proclaim this faith by word and deed according to the Gospel and the tradition of the Church”,85 in wholehearted, faithful and humble service to the Sacred Liturgy as the source and summit of ecclesial life, “so that all, made children of God through faith and Baptism, may come together as one, praising God in the midst of the Church, to participate in the Sacrifice and to eat the Lord’s Supper”.86 Let all Deacons, then, do their part so that the Sacred Liturgy will be celebrated according to the norms of the duly approved liturgical books.

This, then, includes the provision that the kneel at the times indicated by the GIRM, unless there is an infirmity or they are elderly and are unable to do so.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

In the Diocese of Orange the bishop has directed the deacons to stand – many of us could not get up again if we knelt! Note that the GIRM says “From the epiclesis until the priest shows the chalice, the deacon normally remains kneeling.” (#179) which implies that kneeling is not mandatory (otherwise the term “normally” would not be used).

For me the process of kneeling is not a problem, both kneeling and getting up, but because of a bad back I cannot remain kneeling – the stress is such that I would be on my hands and knees in short order. With a *prie dieu *it would be possible, but our sanctuary is so small that that isn’t practical.

Deacon Ed

 

[jprioli]

In the Diocese of Trenton, deacons who are able are to kneel from the Epiclesis until after the Institution narrative. As a practical matter, I wait until the priest has completed his genuflection: as he gets up, so do I.

If more than one deacon is assisting at a particular Mass, then we are to maintain a unified posture: if one deacon cannot kneel, then we all stand, per the Bishop’s directive. We are supposed to sort that out before Mass begins.

Regards,
Deacon Joe

 

[benedictgal]

Thank you, Deacons, for clearing that one up. In my diocese, the deacons kneel, although there is one who is incapacitated, so, he stands.

 

[THurifer2]

Our deacon is able to kneel but he never does – and he never did as an adult server. In fact he used to get upset when servers like me did kneel. [Edited]

Thats really too bad. Wonder how the guy even made it through formation. Round here the scrutinies process is VERY involved and includes the parish. You should have spoken up to the chancery when you found out the guy was going into formation.

 

[Pax_Vobiscum_57]

The deacons in our parish kneel.

At my old parish, the deacon knelt as well, even though he was well into he 80’s. The parish kept a prie-dieu in the sanctuary for him to use.

My husband kneels on the hard marble, and he’s no spring chicken, either. Even the altar servers have pads.

 

[Spiller]

In the Diocese of Orange the bishop has directed the deacons to stand – many of us could not get up again if we knelt! Note that the GIRM says “From the epiclesis until the priest shows the chalice, the deacon normally remains kneeling.” (#179) which implies that kneeling is not mandatory (otherwise the term “normally” would not be used).

For me the process of kneeling is not a problem, both kneeling and getting up, but because of a bad back I cannot remain kneeling – the stress is such that I would be on my hands and knees in short order. With a *prie dieu *it would be possible, but our sanctuary is so small that that isn’t practical.

Deacon Ed

Obviously no one should be forced with kneel with physical/medical issues but why did Brown direct deacons to stand when the Church instructs them to kneel? Just to be different? Just to poke the Church in the eye? These are some little things I wonder about.

Some time ago I trained a grad student how to serve Mass. Our obnoxious deacon (then in training) cornered him one day and said “WE DO NOT KNEEL IN THE SANCTUARY IN THIS PARISH!” Pastorless at the time, he just moved from our parish to the one in the town over – they were happy to have him and his kneeling ways.

 

[Spiller]

In the Diocese of Trenton, deacons who are able are to kneel from the Epiclesis until after the Institution narrative. As a practical matter, I wait until the priest has completed his genuflection: as he gets up, so do I.

If more than one deacon is assisting at a particular Mass, then we are to maintain a unified posture: if one deacon cannot kneel, then we all stand, per the Bishop’s directive. We are supposed to sort that out before Mass begins.

Regards,
Deacon Joe

That makes a lot of sense. They tried to do the same with altar servers here. My response was either let us use kneelers or perhaps those who cannot kneel are not suited to serve Mass? Their initiative died…

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Obviously no one should be forced with kneel with physical/medical issues but why did Brown direct deacons to stand when the Church instructs them to kneel? Just to be different? Just to poke the Church in the eye? These are some little things I wonder about.

Since the directive says “normally” and since the arbiter of liturgy in a diocese is the bishop it is within his right to address this issue. Because we have some elderly deacons (I’m not – just a young 61) he choose a uniform posture that all deacons could use: standing.

Deacon Ed

 

[bpbasilphx]

In the Byzantine Divine Liturgy, the Deacon holds his orarion (stole) and points to the Discos and Chalice as appropriate during the Words of Institution and Epiclesis.

How would this look in the Roman Liturgy?

 

[japhy]

Note that the GIRM says “From the epiclesis until the priest shows the chalice, the deacon normally remains kneeling.” (#179) which implies that kneeling is not mandatory (otherwise the term “normally” would not be used).

I’d say it says “normally” because kneeling is the norm. It’s “mandatory” in the sense that, unless the deacon is reasonably hindered (old age, bad knees, etc.) he is expected to kneel. It’s part of his active participation!

As for whether the bishop can regulate the posture of deacons (except, of course, in the case of seeking unity of posture among multiple deacons, one of whom cannot kneel), I don’t think he can, since GIRM nn. 386-399 (which appear to cover the types of adaptations bishops and conferences of bishops can make to the GIRM) do not mention the posture of the deacon during the Eucharistic Prayer. Clearly, the bishop (as guardian of the liturgy in his diocese) doesn’t have free rein over the elements, so I’m pretty sure the GIRM makes it clear what is and what isn’t adjustable by the bishop.

 

[japhy]

In the Byzantine Divine Liturgy, the Deacon holds his orarion (stole) and points to the Discos and Chalice as appropriate during the Words of Institution and Epiclesis.

I’ve seen a Divine Liturgy (Orthodox) and seem to recall the Deacon holding his orarion a lot… but now I can’t remember how, since I’m quite sure he was wearing some vestment over the orarion (but I could be wrong). Can you clarify this for me? Is the orarion worn under another vestment? If so, is the orarion particularly long so as to allow for these gestures?

How would this look in the Roman Liturgy?

Silly. No offense, of course; please don’t be angry at that. I just mean that it would look out of place in the Roman Rite (although perhaps not so in the Dominican or Ambrosian or Praemonstratensian Rites)… but I’ve never witnessed a Solemn Extraordinary Form Mass, with deacon and subdeacon, so I don’t know what gestures they make with/towards the various sacred vessels. I just know that one of the other Rites I mentioned involves the deacon (or subdeacon) holding the paten aloft at some point.

So, briefly, it might look a bit weird in the Roman Rite for the deacon to grab a hold of his stole (especially if it were tucked away under his dalmatic) and point towards the sacred vessels.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I’ve seen a Divine Liturgy (Orthodox) and seem to recall the Deacon holding his orarion a lot… but now I can’t remember how, since I’m quite sure he was wearing some vestment over the orarion (but I could be wrong). Can you clarify this for me? Is the orarion worn under another vestment? If so, is the orarion particularly long so as to allow for these gestures?

The orarion is the Deacon’s stole, which is a narrow band of material (and yes, it’s rather long) worn OVER the Sticharion (which corresponds to the Western alb).