Deaconesses, really ordainable?

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I am undecided on this issue, but ByzCath, there is no reason why women deacons would have to read the bible or give homilies in Church.

Those functions are not essential to the diaconate, like saying mass is to the priest.

Those are things which tradition with a lowercase t has given to deacons, but then it fell out of use when the permanent diaconate was lost and priests did it, and then we allowed deacons those roles again.

But ultimately, diaconal ordination is the lowest of the three grades, and it does not give any specific powers. It simply gives an increase in sanctifying grace (like all sacraments) and imprints the persons soul with the spiritual character of ordination.

Later ordiantions add various powers, though the character is only recieved once.

I can see why women are not symbolically able to recieve priestly powers, but I am undecided on whether they could recieve the grace and character of ordination minus the powers (which is what the diaconate is)
 
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batteddy:
I am undecided on this issue, but ByzCath, there is no reason why women deacons would have to read the bible or give homilies in Church.

Those functions are not essential to the diaconate, like saying mass is to the priest.
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I beg to differ with you on this one.

One of the main roles of the Deacon is the Proclamation of the Gospel and preaching it.

The Catechism spells this out explicitly.

1570 Deacons share in Christ’s mission and grace in a special way. The sacrament of Holy Orders marks them with an imprint (“character”) which cannot be removed and which configures them to Christ, who made himself the “deacon” or servant of all. Among other tasks, it is the task of deacons to assist the bishop and priests in the celebration of the divine mysteries, above all the Eucharist, in the distribution of Holy Communion, in assisting at and blessing marriages, in the proclamation of the Gospel and preaching, in presiding over funerals, and in dedicating themselves to the various ministries of charity.
Those are things which tradition with a lowercase t has given to deacons, but then it fell out of use when the permanent diaconate was lost and priests did it, and then we allowed deacons those roles again.
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This is not really right, as the permanent diaconate only died out in the Western Church, we have always had the permanent diaconate in the Eastern Church and they have always proclaimed the Gospel and preached during the Divine Liturgy.
But ultimately, diaconal ordination is the lowest of the three grades, and it does not give any specific powers. It simply gives an increase in sanctifying grace (like all sacraments) and imprints the persons soul with the spiritual character of ordination.
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Yes it could be called the “lowest of the three grades” but it is still a major Holy Order.
 
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ncjohn:
David, you really lost me on that one. I’m not being disingenuous at all. I highlighted that part because that was where you said women weren’t supposed to speak. I put the whole quote because I didn’t understand what the relationship was. I certainly wasn’t implying that you literally thought women weren’t supposed to speak. I think I did address my feelings about women proclaiming and preaching relative to women speaking in the previous post
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When you only look at that part of the sentence does it say that. So you must remove it from the sentence out of context to get me saying that.

When reading the whole sentence and the rest of the paragraph you see that I was not saying that women should not speak in Church.

Again, here is the whole thing.
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ByzCath:
Also I do question if a woman can proclaim the Gospel and preach givin the prohibition in the Bible against women speaking in Church. I have heard that this only applies in a liturgical setting, which is one of the main roles the deacon fulfills, it is his job to proclaim the Gospel and at times preach the homily.
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So if you aren’t trying to push an agenda and being disingenuous then at the very least you are putting words into my mouth.
 
in the distribution of Holy Communion, in assisting at and blessing marriages, in the proclamation of the Gospel and preaching
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, in presiding over funerals

Yes, but these are all disciplinary duties, not intrinsic doctrinal duties.

“presiding over funerals” is something the Church allows deacons to do…but I would not call it essential to the nature of the diaconate.
 
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batteddy:
Yes, but these are all disciplinary duties, not intrinsic doctrinal duties.

“presiding over funerals” is something the Church allows deacons to do…but I would not call it essential to the nature of the diaconate.
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But historically the proclamation of the Gospel and preaching is.

This was lost to the Western Church when it lost the permanent diaconate but it was retained in the Eastern Church.

And lets say you do remove it so you can make female deacons. In reality you will not have a diaconate any more. You will have male deacons and female deacons not just deacons.

Nonsense. There have never been female deacons thoughout the history of the Church. I just have not heard any argument for female deacons that makes much sense, actually I have not heard any argument except for that it has not been infallibly proclaimed that they can not be, which I disagree with.
 
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ByzCath:
When you only look at that part of the sentence does it say that. So you must remove it from the sentence out of context to get me saying that.

When reading the whole sentence and the rest of the paragraph you see that I was not saying that women should not speak in Church.

So if you aren’t trying to push an agenda and being disingenuous then at the very least you are putting words into my mouth.
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Ok, I had to go down a few posts and re-read it to see what was going on and how we came to where we are here. You are correct that I took out the second sentence when I did the quote, but if you look at my response, I addressed that sentence even though I had shortened the quote to take up less space since it was already getting to be a long post. It was definitely not to push an agenda or put words in your mouth. The second sentence dealt with the interpretation that the woman speaking in church only applied to liturgical settings, with my response being that women are already acting as readers in liturgical settings. I sincerely apologize if it came across that I was being less than honest or trying to play games. I certainly wouldn’t have gone to the trouble to thank you for the respectful exchange and then turn around and jerk your chain. 🙂

I’m still not clear however which biblical passage you are referring to that is thought to indicate that. I’m sure I could go read back through all the Pauline letters to find the passage that I’m thinking of, but I’m not even sure if that’s the one you’re addressing. Could you cite the passage, or passages you’re addressing so I can look into it/them?

Peace,
John
 
“But historically the proclamation of the Gospel and preaching is.”

Preaching, maybe, but proclamation of the Gospel cannot be essential to the diaconate because there wasn’t the Gospel for decades after deacons started being ordained…and the Gospels didn’t get universally spread for a few centuries perhaps. They certainly took a while to get into liturgical celebrations.

Hence I can only conclude that it is a discipline and a tradition with a small t.

And preaching could theoretically be done by women if it was done TO other women and not men. Like directing catechism for women or leading womens’ retreats or in womens’ religious communities.
 
Catholic2003 said:
Here is a link to a post that contains the conclusions from the Canon Law Society of America’s report on the Canonical Implications of Ordaining Women to the Permanent Diaconate, from one of the previous threads on this issue.
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Thanks a bunch! That is more the information I was looking for. 👍

I had noticed that other thread, but hadn’t gone there as I took it to be about ordaining women priests and didn’t want to waste my time since that is a settled issue. Some interesting discussion in there too though.

Peace,
John 🙂
 
Are deacons allowed to marry after they have been ordained.
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ByzCath said:
As the diaconate is part of major Holy Orders, no they are under the same rules as priests in this regards.
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Council of Ancyra, Canon X:

“THEY who have been made deacons, declaring when they were ordained that they must marry, because they were not able to abide so, and who afterwards have married, shall continue in their ministry, because it was conceded to them by the bishop. But if any were silent on this matter, undertaking at their ordination to abide as they were, and afterwards proceeded to marriage, these shall cease from the diaconate.”

ANCIENT EPITOME TO CANON X.

Whoso is to be ordained deacon, if he has before announced to the bishop that he cannot persevere unmarried, let him marry and let him be a deacon; but if he shall have kept silence, should he take a wife afterwards let him be cast out.
 
From an Orthodox perspective, I would say that a Deaconess
would be at the same position as a sub deacon. They are not clergy, but they help the Deacon.
About baptisms, originally, baptisms were in the nude. they were performed in a separate building. Since it would be improper for a male Priest to look at a nude woman, this is where the Deaconess came in.
 
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