Deacons and the Chalice

[SpiritFire]

Hi.

Every single Ordinary Form Mass with a deacon I’ve been to, at the final
doxology of Eucharistic Prayer II (which seems to have become to the new
Roman Canon ) the priest always gives the Chalice to the deacon,
who elevates it standing next to the priest while the priest says Through him, etc.

This always seemed really weird to me, like the priest was just trying to keep the deacon busy so he wouldn’t get bored. (Here, take the chalice and help me offer the sacrifice) It appears as if the deacon is concelebrating the Mass or something.

Is this licit? Or is this just another “it’s Post-Vatican II now, we can do whatever we want - Wahoo!!” things?

I seem to be unable to find any rubric or directive allowing it.

Also, has anyone experienced priests, while saying the words of consecration, take the bread and rotate from side to side “offering” it to the people, looking at the people the entire time without so much as a glance at the bread until after consecration?
This seems SO irreverent to me! I feel like shouting "quit waving the bread at us, turn around (ad orientem), and do it like it says to in the book right in front of you!!.. Not quite like that, but I hope you understand what I mean.
You would think it’d be the priest showing the people what reverence in the Mass was…

 

[puzzleannie]

Hi.

Every single Ordinary Form Mass with a deacon I’ve been to, at the final
doxology of Eucharistic Prayer II (which seems to have become to the new
Roman Canon ) the priest always gives the Chalice to the deacon,
who elevates it standing next to the priest while the priest says Through him, etc.

This always seemed really weird to me, like the priest was just trying to keep the deacon busy so he wouldn’t get bored. (Here, take the chalice and help me offer the sacrifice) It appears as if the deacon is concelebrating the Mass or something.

Is this licit? Or…

I think this is one of the things the deacon is supposed to do. there is a thread a couple of weeks old on the deacon’s role at Mass from those in the know, worth a search because they cited good sources

not sure what you mean by the second because I have not seen it

 

[PacoG]

Every single Ordinary Form Mass with a deacon I’ve been to, at the final doxology of Eucharistic Prayer II (which seems to have become to the new
Roman Canon ) the priest always gives the Chalice to the deacon,
who elevates it standing next to the priest while the priest says Through him, etc.

This always seemed really weird to me, like the priest was just trying to keep the deacon busy so he wouldn’t get bored. (Here, take the chalice and help me offer the sacrifice) It appears as if the deacon is concelebrating the Mass or something.

Is this licit? Or is this just another “it’s Post-Vatican II now, we can do whatever we want - Wahoo!!” things?

With all due respect (and I will be jumped by the moderators for this), but this is one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever seen. It is offensive in its sarcasm and snideness. Why is the presumption on this board that everything is some kind of sinister abuse.

If you watch any Mass…from the local parish Sunday Mass to Papal Masses, the Deacon always ministers to the cup. Even the Pope hands the chalice to one of the deacons ministering to him at the altar. If you watch any Mass, the deacon prepares the cup, places and removes the pall on and off the chalice when necessary, places the cup back on the altar after the priests communion and cleanses it. This is in every Mass, including papal Masses.

As to your inappropriate “Post-Vatican II” comment, this is an ancient custom of the Church. The Catholic Encyclopedia of 1917 states:

Still the care of the chalice has remained the deacon’s special province down to modern times. Even now in a high Mass the rubrics direct that when the chalice is offered, the deacon is to support the foot of the chalice or the arm of the priest and to repeat with him the words: Offerimus tibi, Domine, calicem salutris, etc. As a careful study of the first “Ordo Romanus” shows, the archdeacon of the papal Mass seems in a sense to preside over the chalice, and it is he and his fellow-deacons who, after the people have communicated under the form of bread, present to them the calicem ministerialem with the Precious Blood.

 

[Mattapoisett64]

Hi.

Every single Ordinary Form Mass with a deacon I’ve been to, at the final
doxology of Eucharistic Prayer II (which seems to have become to the new
Roman Canon ) the priest always gives the Chalice to the deacon,
who elevates it standing next to the priest while the priest says Through him, etc.

This always seemed really weird to me, like the priest was just trying to keep the deacon busy so he wouldn’t get bored. (Here, take the chalice and help me offer the sacrifice) It appears as if the deacon is concelebrating the Mass or something.

Is this licit? Or is this just another “it’s Post-Vatican II now, we can do whatever we want - Wahoo!!” things?

I seem to be unable to find any rubric or directive allowing it.

Also, has anyone experienced priests, while saying the words of consecration, take the bread and rotate from side to side “offering” it to the people, looking at the people the entire time without so much as a glance at the bread until after consecration?
This seems SO irreverent to me! I feel like shouting "quit waving the bread at us, turn around (ad orientem), and do it like it says to in the book right in front of you!!.. Not quite like that, but I hope you understand what I mean.
You would think it’d be the priest showing the people what reverence in the Mass was…

You can’t have looked too hard. GIRM # 180:

“At the final doxology of the Eucharistic Prayer, the deacon stands next to the priest, holding the chalice elevated while the priest elevates the paten with the host, until the people have responded with the acclamation, Amen.”

Not everything you’re unfamiliar with is an abuse, “weird,” or a “Post-Vatican II . . .Wahoo!” thing.

I agree with the prior poster that your snide quotient was really over the top on this. The fact that, in your own words, “Every single Ordinary Form Mass with a deacon I’ve been to, at the final doxology of Eucharistic Prayer II (which seems to have become to the new
Roman Canon ) the priest always gives the Chalice to the deacon,
who elevates it standing next to the priest while the priest says Through him, etc.” should have maybe given you the hint that this was proper and not an exercise in making sure the deacon wasn’t “bored.”

 

[John_Lilburne]

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :

“180. At the final doxology of the Eucharistic Prayer, the deacon stands next to the priest, holding the chalice elevated while the priest elevates the paten with the host, until the people have responded with the acclamation, Amen.”

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

This always seemed really weird to me, like the priest was just trying to keep the deacon busy so he wouldn’t get bored.

Or maybe the priest was just trying to follow the GIRM:

1. At the final doxology of the Eucharistic Prayer, the deacon stands next to the priest, holding the chalice elevated while the priest elevates the paten with the host, until the people have responded with the acclamation, Amen.

 

[SpiritFire]

Oh my goodness!

I am so, so sorry!!

I do get very heated about matters liturgical. In this case I had quite the presumption.

Please forgive me!

I have an old version of GIRM. No. 180 doesn’t talk about the deacon in my edition.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I wasn’t questioning the fact that the deacon is minister of the chalice. Just the elevation at the doxology.

I will be looking at the 2002 GIRM more often.

Again, I ask your forgiveness.

 

[Spirithound]

Every single Ordinary Form Mass with a deacon I’ve been to, at the final doxology of Eucharistic Prayer II (which seems to have become to the new Roman Canon) the priest always gives the Chalice to the deacon, who elevates it standing next to the priest while the priest says Through him, etc.

The Doxology occurs at the end of every Eucharistic Prayer. Why separate out EP II?

 

[Lapey]

The Doxology occurs at the end of every Eucharistic Prayer. Why separate out EP II?

Thanks hound, this was my question too.

Being a deacon myself, i sense a little “I don’t like this whole deacon thing” attitude from the OP.

Please look into Church history, especially from 1st through the 6th Century. You will find that the early Church found deacons very active and did much more than you would like them to have done, but you know how those post Vatican II deacons are, oh sorry this was a little pre vat II…

 

[Lapey]

Oh my goodness!

I am so, so sorry!!

I do get very heated about matters liturgical. In this case I had quite the presumption.
How can you get so heated about something you don’t know about?
Please forgive me!Okay, you’re forgiven, now go and learn!

I have an old version of GIRM.Put it on a shelf or garbage can. No. 180 doesn’t talk about the deacon in my edition.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I wasn’t questioning the fact that the deacon is minister of the chalice. Just the elevation at the doxology.

I will be looking at the 2002 GIRM more often.

Again, I ask your forgiveness.

 

[TheMc]

I have an old version of GIRM.

Try bookmarking this. It is what I always use:

usccb.org/liturgy/current/GIRM.pdf

 

[IrishEddieOHara]

Oh my goodness!

I am so, so sorry!!

I do get very heated about matters liturgical. In this case I had quite the presumption.

Please forgive me!

I have an old version of GIRM. No. 180 doesn’t talk about the deacon in my edition.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I wasn’t questioning the fact that the deacon is minister of the chalice. Just the elevation at the doxology.

I will be looking at the 2002 GIRM more often.

Again, I ask your forgiveness.

I don’t think you owe an apology to ANYONE here. You are sensitive to the constant barrage of liturgical abuses [edited]

[edited]

If you go to a Byzantine Catholic Church, you will see the deacon elevate the chalice and the paten. It is an ancient tradition. Don’t be alarmed.

[edited]

 

[TheMc]

I don’t think you owe an apology to ANYONE here. You are sensitive to the constant barrage of liturgical abuses [edited]

[edited]

If you go to a Byzantine Catholic Church, you will see the deacon elevate the chalice and the paten. It is an ancient tradition. Don’t be alarmed.

[edited]

Actually, PacoG is right on. The deacon is supposed to be holding the chalice at that point!

 

[JerrySeibert]

You want to see snide commentary – start a discussion about female “altar servers” and the such. When I am forced to partake of Communion at a Roman rite parish, I will deliberately cross the aisle to the priest if the row I am in is being served by a female “eucharistic minister.” Quite frankly, the faster our Holy Father rids himself of this pestilence, the better. At least one bishop in the US has had the boldness to ban altar girls.

Irish where can I find this information? We have this at my Parish and I have never known it is “wrong”. If this is in fact an abuse I am not aware of it. You have my interest now.
Thanks

 

[JerrySeibert]

Now I am even more confused. I have just google searched “Female Altar Servers” and I have many articles expressing fear that this practice is leading to a decline in vocations. But, in not one article of the 6 I read did those who wrote there opinion offer where this is in Cannon Law. Does this exist? I searched the Catholic encyclopedia as well. How can so many be against something that it seems from my search, the Church is not against. Is this a licit practice? on your part?

 

[Spirithound]

…altar girls.

Irish where can I find this information? We have this at my Parish and I have never known it is “wrong”. If this is in fact an abuse I am not aware of it. You have my interest now.
Thanks

Now I am even more confused. I have just google searched “Female Altar Servers” and I have many articles expressing fear that this practice is leading to a decline in vocations. But, in not one article of the 6 I read did those who wrote there opinion offer where this is in Cannon Law. Does this exist? I searched the Catholic encyclopedia as well. How can so many be against something that it seems from my search, the Church is not against. Is this a licit practice? on your part?

The Pope allows the bishops to allow their priests to allow female altar servers. However, having female altar servers is not a traditional thing to allow. I am unaware of any study identifying female altar servers as a reason for decreased vocations.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Now I am even more confused. I have just google searched “Female Altar Servers” and I have many articles expressing fear that this practice is leading to a decline in vocations. But, in not one article of the 6 I read did those who wrote there opinion offer where this is in Cannon Law. Does this exist? I searched the Catholic encyclopedia as well. How can so many be against something that it seems from my search, the Church is not against. Is this a licit practice? on your part?

This is from the GIRM

1. The liturgical duties that are not proper to the priest or the deacon and are listed above (cf. nos. 100-106) may also be entrusted by a liturgical blessing or a temporary deputation to suitable lay persons chosen by the pastor or rector of the church.89 All should observe the norms established by the Bishop for his diocese regarding the office of those who serve the priest at the altar.

In the US, it is up to each individual Bishop to decide what is best for his diocese.

Regarding female altar servers- my understanding is this-
the Vatican has made no statement prohibiting women/girls from performing these duties, but has left it up to the Ordinary to decide. If the Bishop says that females can be used, that does not mean that an individual pastor has to allow it. On the other hand, if the Bishop says “No feamle altar servers”, then that’s the way it is! That is where the promise of obedience comes in!

This is something that falls under discipline, it is not etched in stone

 

[TheMc]

This is from the GIRM

In the US, it is up to each individual Bishop to decide what is best for his diocese.

Regarding female altar servers- my understanding is this-
the Vatican has made no statement prohibiting women/girls from performing these duties, but has left it up to the Ordinary to decide. If the Bishop says that females can be used, that does not mean that an individual pastor has to allow it. On the other hand, if the Bishop says “No feamle altar servers”, then that’s the way it is! That is where the promise of obedience comes in!

This is something that falls under discipline, it is not etched in stone

The vatican actually said a bit more. They gave a preference to altar boys, and an obligation to support them.

*In accord with the above cited instructions of the Holy See, such an authorization may not in any way exclude men or, in particular, boys from service at the altar nor require that priests of the diocese would make use of female altar servers, since “it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar.” (circular letter, 2).

Indeed, the obligation to support groups of altar boys will always remain, not least of all due to the wellknown assistance that such programs [of altar boys] have provided since time immemorial in encouraging future priestly vocations (cf. ibid.).

 

[GwenL]

As for me, I will follow the discipline of Holy Mother Church in this matter.

In the OF, the ordinary decides if altar servers may be female. If he says yes, we may have female altar servers. If he says no, we may not. Those who have a problem with this, have a problem with obedience to their ordinary in matters of Church discipline. Those who say that having a female altar server is a “liturgical abuse,” when it is clearly permitted by the ordinary and the discipline of the Church, also might think hard about obedience.

Vocations find fertile ground in the family of faith. Personally, I think the contraceptive/abortive mentality of our culture, which permits only 1 or at most 2 children per marriage, has much more to do with any decrease in vocations than the dreaded “female altar server.” She is a much easier target, though, I grant you that.

On the other hand, “vocation” means calling. Who here accuses the Holy Spirit of calling fewer men to the priesthood? I think it is highly likely that the Holy Spirit is calling exactly the right number of men. Perhaps we have a “responding” problem, not a “calling” problem.

On the other, other hand, we do not have a worldwide “responding” problem. Vocations are booming in places where the contraceptive culture is rejected. The “responding” problem is mostly in secular humanist western cultures.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

How did we get from “deacons and the chalice” to female altar servers?