Deacon's homily against the EF (3/11/12)

[newyorkcatholic]

Brooklyn, I agree.

But I wonder about how a topic on a traditional Catholicism subforum, about how a deacon very unfairly and inappropriately blasted not the EF but the universal practice of the entire Latin Church before Vatican II, somehow gets turned into a thread about how horrible and mean traditionalists are towards the OF.

Even if we are (and I think we are as is consonant with human nature, not because traditionalism makes us mean), it’s just funny that this is somehow always relevant to everything for some people.

 

[Melchior_1]

Because some people who visit this subforum attend the Ordinary Form and partake in traditionalist practices. Lectio Divina, fasting, receiving the Eucharist on the tongue, frequent Confession, daily Mass, praying LOTH and/or the Rosary, are all what most consider traditionalist practices, yet all can be done while attending the Ordinary Form.

These are good reasons to visit this board, in addition to simply wanting to learn more about traditional elements of the Faith. To come into this section and see people say things like “the OF is inherently worse”, “the OF has poorer theology”, and several other nitpicks, it can be disheartening. People say things about the OF, and feel that they have every right to say their opinions.

This thread, and story, showcase what’s happening when the shoe is on the other foot. It’s not all that different, really. The Deacon in this homily focuses on several external elements, which isn’t much different than how people focus on lack of altar rails, lack of kneeling while receiving Christ, and other assorted perceived signs of impiety based on what is seen, rather than the internal state of the soul.

Frankly, you can’t blame people who follow and practice traditionalist customs and attend the OF not to get a bit upset at times, and you can’t expect them not to point out that this Deacon isn’t acting any different than the people who write the SSPX website, people who write for “The Remnant”, Michael Voris, and other characters.

 

[ringil]

Certainly an odd homily and theologically misguided, it seems to me.

Both the OF and EF are valid celebrations and expressions of our Convenant with God. One is not superior to the other.

I did learn that folks put their hands under the alter rail cloth- I didn’t know that. I’ve never seen this but the EF’s I have been to didn’t have the cloth.

 

[ringil]

I don’t mean to derail this thread, but I cannot let this statement go without commenting on it. The thread about the Eucharist is not about “dropping crumbs.” Each and every “crumb” from a consecrated host is the body and blood of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, the One who created us and who died a bloody death on Calvary to redeem us from sin and death. If we can cavalierly toss around and care so little about dropping these precious “crumbs”, that is the start to tossing away every belief we have. If we cannot honor and protect our Lord and Saviour, then we cannot be entrusted with anything.

I have no doubt that TimothyH would never do anything to purposely desecrate the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, and I know that he is not saying that we should not protect the Holy Eucharist. But if we cannot honor the very Body and Blood of our Lord, then what else matters? I am always amazed at how humble our Lord makes himself by coming to us under the appearance of bread, making Himself so completely vulnerable to us, just as He did when he was nailed to the Cross. There can be no greater profanation that that of the Holy Eucharist, the Source and Summit for all Catholics, even if it is not done intentionally but carelessly.

Again, my apologies for derailing this thread, but some things must be said.

It is my understanding that when the piece of Host is so small that it isn’t recognizable as bread it isn’t neccessarly the Sacred Species.

 

[maryjk]

Because some people who visit this subforum attend the Ordinary Form and partake in traditionalist practices. Lectio Divina, fasting, receiving the Eucharist on the tongue, frequent Confession, daily Mass, praying LOTH and/or the Rosary, are all what most consider traditionalist practices, yet all can be done while attending the Ordinary Form.

Many here seem to believe that the Traditional Forum is for those that attend the EF, not for anyone else. I know that I have gotten that impression.

 

[sw85]

The real problem with the deacon’s talk was not that he riduculed the traditional services of the church which have come from the Fathers. It is that he did not state the message of the passage accurately.

I don’t think we need to nail ourselves down to one problem with it!

I wouldn’t even call myself a traditionalist, but I found this homily simply revolting. From the nascent Marcionism in the opening lines to his basically Protestant exegesis to the gross impiety he directs toward centuries of liturgical celebrations of a mass established by a sainted Pope and for which thousands, if not millions, of men have willingly died… just awful stuff.

I’m amazed at his total lack of perspective too. Segregation of boys and girls at confirmation is an “institutional failing”? Too many candles? Yeesh. Nowadays we have priests openly rebelling against the magisterium with the support of their renegade cardinals, vocations in collapse, the majority of American Catholics actively siding with those who would and do persecute the Church, etc. But hey, at least we don’t make children feel uncomfortable as they receive the awesome power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I don’t believe the deacon’s analogy holds water, equating what he obviously dislikes about the old times with that which Christ referred to in the Temple area as “money changers.”

Re-reading the scriptures, we see:
The Cleansing of the Temple.*

Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all those engaged in selling and buying there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves.
And he said to them, “It is written:
‘My house shall be a house of prayer,’*
but you are making it a den of thieves.”

The blind and the lame approached him in the temple area, and he cured them.
When the chief priests and the scribes saw the wondrous things he was doing, and the children crying out in the temple area, “Hosanna to the Son of David,” they were indignant
and said to him, “Do you hear what they are saying?” Jesus said to them, “Yes; and have you never read the text, ‘Out of the mouths of infants and nurslings you have brought forth praise’?”

And leaving them, he went out of the city to Bethany, and there he spent the night."

Jesus was concerned and angry with the area surrounding the Temple, His house of prayer, being used as nothing more than a moneymaking scheme, “a den of thieves.”

One might see an entirely different analogy here. Outside of The Church, The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, are people purveying all manner of psychological tricks, new age “religions,” drugs to quiet us, entertainment to seduce us, bickering, divisive arguments and pure folly.

In effect, purveyors of false belief systems pandering with the stuff of people’s souls. The thieves are just outside the temple area, barring those innocent souls who simply want to walk forward into Church with hearts as pure as the doves, hearts that belong only to God. Priceless, each soul, walking forward into the Church without any need to buy into divisive arguments or man made divisions. That is what I see outside the Temple. But walk inside and see that which He has prepared for us! The Real Presence of Christ.

Once we step inside the Church, we let all that encumbers us fall away. Historically, from the moment Christ handed the keys of the kingdom to Saint Peter, we were all set on sacred ground. “The Gates of Hell,” Christ told us, “shall not prevail against” Her. Neither shall divisions of taste, preferences or analogies that confuse and divide.

Those brothers and sisters among us who have their preferences as to which Rite speaks best to their souls, all among us must unite in the love God has given us through the divine continuity of His Real Presence.

Whether we like the old ways or the new, The Church has always been God’s house of prayer. The Church, as the Bride of Christ, may well be undergoing transformations, but She is to be spoken of reverently. She has always been Christ’s Bride.

Decent people received Christ at those long-ago Communion altars just as we do now. People may have gone to confession with a different understanding psychologically, but are we so much better today, when fewer people actually go to confession?

To equate past liturgical forms or growing pains with the terms “moneychangers,” seems not to be opening windows, but trampling on sacred ground.

Christ spoke of the infants and nurslings having great wisdom. Before we are even in our mother’s womb, our spirits are pure and chaste, and joyfully stretching our souls towards perfect unity with our Heavenly Father who created all.

“I was glad when he said unto me ‘Let us go into the House of the Lord.’”

“The joy of the Lord is my strength.” Let His joy rule among us, to give us strength to face whatever changes come, and to respect the ways of those who have gone before us.

Let those who prefer tradition rejoice with those who welcome change. Let justice and mercy kiss one another, and the old and the new face the altar with pure hearts!

There is beauty wheresoever Christ is present. Our Holy Church, in Her beliefs in the Real Presence, Her Sacraments, Her People, all are part of God’s house of prayer.

Oh wow! I misread part of the Scripture in this post. I read it as Jesus *cursed *the blind and the lame!

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Oh wow! I misread part of the Scripture in this post. I read it as Jesus *cursed *the blind and the lame!

Oh, I’m glad you re-read that, LittleSoldier! Most definitely Christ *cured *them!:heaven:
Blessings,
Kathryn Ann

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

I’m just stunned, I can’t think of anything charitable to say about this deacon or his homily. I will say I would not put myself or my family under his personal spiritual direction.

Totally agree, Cider.
Blessings,
Kathryn Ann:heaven:

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

They are not. They go back to the catacombs. Moreover, they serve an important message in the original eastertide celebrations.

Very interesting. I want to go study more about this. Thank you for pointing this out, Exsilivm.
Joy and Peace to You.:heaven:
Kathryn Ann

 

[Big_Feet]

Because some people who visit this subforum attend the Ordinary Form and partake in traditionalist practices. Lectio Divina, fasting, receiving the Eucharist on the tongue, frequent Confession, daily Mass, praying LOTH and/or the Rosary, are all what most consider traditionalist practices, yet all can be done while attending the Ordinary Form.

These are good reasons to visit this board, in addition to simply wanting to learn more about traditional elements of the Faith. To come into this section and see people say things like “the OF is inherently worse”, “the OF has poorer theology”, and several other nitpicks, it can be disheartening. People say things about the OF, and feel that they have every right to say their opinions.

This thread, and story, showcase what’s happening when the shoe is on the other foot. It’s not all that different, really. The Deacon in this homily focuses on several external elements, which isn’t much different than how people focus on lack of altar rails, lack of kneeling while receiving Christ, and other assorted perceived signs of impiety based on what is seen, rather than the internal state of the soul.

Frankly, you can’t blame people who follow and practice traditionalist customs and attend the OF not to get a bit upset at times, and you can’t expect them not to point out that this Deacon isn’t acting any different than the people who write the SSPX website, people who write for “The Remnant”, Michael Voris, and other characters.

Well said, if I may sayso myself!

Many here seem to believe that the Traditional Forum is for those that attend the EF, not for anyone else. I know that I have gotten that impression.

I have gotten that distinct impression at time from this forum as well.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

I don’t think we need to nail ourselves down to one problem with it!

I wouldn’t even call myself a traditionalist, but I found this homily simply revolting. From the nascent Marcionism in the opening lines to his basically Protestant exegesis to the gross impiety he directs toward centuries of liturgical celebrations of a mass established by a sainted Pope and for which thousands, if not millions, of men have willingly died… just awful stuff.

I’m amazed at his total lack of perspective too. Segregation of boys and girls at confirmation is an “institutional failing”? Too many candles? Yeesh. Nowadays we have priests openly rebelling against the magisterium with the support of their renegade cardinals, vocations in collapse, the majority of American Catholics actively siding with those who would and do persecute the Church, etc. But hey, at least we don’t make children feel uncomfortable as they receive the awesome power of the Holy Spirit.

I couldn’t agree more. Well said, sw85.
I wonder if someone will gently, with love,
speak to the deacon who gave the original homily.
I worry about his influence on others.
Joy and Peace.
Kathryn Ann:heaven:

 

[Corki]

I’m amazed at his total lack of perspective too. Segregation of boys and girls at confirmation is an “institutional failing”?

This was one thing I didn’t understand at all. Is he talking about the Confirmation Mass itself? At every Confirmation I have attended (and First Communions too), the kids process into the Church and sit girls on one side and boys on the other. This includes OF, EF and the Missal of 1965 Masses.

Or is he talking about the Sacrament prep classes. If that’s the case, we segregate more now then in the “bad old days” since we have some frank discussions on moral issues that require a separation of boys and girls. In the “old days,” when kids were Confirmed at an earlier age, they would not have been split up at all.

 

[Brooklyn]

Because some people who visit this subforum attend the Ordinary Form and partake in traditionalist practices. Lectio Divina, fasting, receiving the Eucharist on the tongue, frequent Confession, daily Mass, praying LOTH and/or the Rosary, are all what most consider traditionalist practices, yet all can be done while attending the Ordinary Form.

That is a very interesting statement. All of the practices you listed; “Lectio Divina, fasting, receiving the Eucharist on the tongue, frequent Confession, daily Mass, praying LOTH and/or the Rosary”, I would describe as Catholic practices, not “traditional” practices. So, of course they can be done while attending the OF. But your statement would imply that those who engage in these practices are not the norm among those who attend the OF. If that is the case, then what Catholic practices outside of Mass do “non-traditional” people make a part of their lives? How do they practice their religion? I know those who attend the OF who are very devout and engage in the practices you listed. But I don’t think any of them would label these practices “traditional”, but see them as “Catholic.”

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

I couldn’t agree more. Well said, sw85.
I wonder if someone will gently, with love,
speak to the deacon who gave the original homily.
I worry about his influence on others.
Joy and Peace.
Kathryn Ann:heaven:

The deacon is not alone in his thoughts. His priest agrees with him, as shown in his homily the week before. Perusing the parish website is a big eye opener, especially the bulletins and homilies. There are pot-shots at the EF throughout.

• PAX

 

[Corki]

The deacon is not alone in his thoughts. His priest agrees with him, as shown in his homily the week before. Perusing the parish website is a big eye opener, especially the bulletins and homilies. There are pot-shots at the EF throughout.

• PAX

And evidently he’s quite elderly.

Now the next is Vatican II. Change. Most of you are much too young to remember anything about Vatican II but I am sufficiently mature to be able to remember both Vatican I and II.

He’s about 144 years old, give or take a decade.

 

[Melchior_1]

That is a very interesting statement. All of the practices you listed; “Lectio Divina, fasting, receiving the Eucharist on the tongue, frequent Confession, daily Mass, praying LOTH and/or the Rosary”, I would describe as Catholic practices, not “traditional” practices. So, of course they can be done while attending the OF. But your statement would imply that those who engage in these practices are not the norm among those who attend the OF. If that is the case, then what Catholic practices outside of Mass do “non-traditional” people make a part of their lives? How do they practice their religion? I know those who attend the OF who are very devout and engage in the practices you listed. But I don’t think any of them would label these practices “traditional”, but see them as “Catholic.”

Several people here have described them as traditional practices, which is why my language reflected that. In fact, there was a nice thread about the Dominican Rosary and how it is “the traditional Rosary”, and that fifteen decades is “the traditional way”.

If you’re using your verbage and definitions, there’s no such thing as “traditional Catholicism”, just “Catholicism”. The Extraordinary Form, and everything therin, is simply “Catholic”.

 

[maryjk]

This was one thing I didn’t understand at all. Is he talking about the Confirmation Mass itself? At every Confirmation I have attended (and First Communions too), the kids process into the Church and sit girls on one side and boys on the other. This includes OF, EF and the Missal of 1965 Masses.

Hmm. Ours sit together and process in by height.

 

[Brooklyn]

Several people here have described them as traditional practices, which is why my language reflected that. In fact, there was a nice thread about the Dominican Rosary and how it is “the traditional Rosary”, and that fifteen decades is “the traditional way”.

If you’re using your verbage and definitions, there’s no such thing as “traditional Catholicism”, just “Catholicism”. The Extraordinary Form, and everything therin, is simply “Catholic”.

I sure agree with that. But that still doesn’t answer my question why it is not the norm for most of those attending the OF to engage in the practices, traditional or not, that you described in your post. It is very much the norm for those attending the EF to pray the Rosary, read the breviary, etc. Why do you think that is not the case with those attending the OF?

 

[TimothyH]

I don’t think we need to nail ourselves down to one problem with it!

I wouldn’t even call myself a traditionalist, but I found this homily simply revolting. From the nascent Marcionism in the opening lines to his basically Protestant exegesis to the gross impiety he directs toward centuries of liturgical celebrations of a mass established by a sainted Pope and for which thousands, if not millions, of men have willingly died… just awful stuff.

I’m amazed at his total lack of perspective too. Segregation of boys and girls at confirmation is an “institutional failing”? Too many candles? Yeesh. Nowadays we have priests openly rebelling against the magisterium with the support of their renegade cardinals, vocations in collapse, the majority of American Catholics actively siding with those who would and do persecute the Church, etc. But hey, at least we don’t make children feel uncomfortable as they receive the awesome power of the Holy Spirit.

Please be careful about what you say against the Holy Spirit. The Second Vatican Council did not repeal Matthew 12:32.

The power of the Holy Spirit is awesome, and for some of us it is not just academic. The Holy Spirit is for some of us, more than just something we read about about in RICA. The Holy Spirit is God, and the presence of God in the lives of some is visceral, something we feel every moment of every day. For me, candles and Church architecture and whether boys are segregated from girls or not will never change that.

The Holy Spirit is God. Please don’t mock the Holy Spirit.

-Tim-