Deacon's posture during the Epiclesis

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I visited a parish recently when I noticed something that was new to me. The deacon stood behind and to the side of the priest at the altar as I have always seen during Eucharistic Prayer. While the priest said the Epiclesis, the deacon took the orans posture.

I thought the orans was reserved for the priest celebrant and was not for the deacon at all. Another visitor who was with me remarked on the same thing and spoke of seeing that at another parish in a different part of the country.

Is this an approved change in the liturgy?
 
Georgia said:
I visited a parish recently when I noticed something that was new to me. The deacon stood behind and to the side of the priest at the altar as I have always seen during Eucharistic Prayer. While the priest said the Epiclesis, the deacon took the orans posture.

I thought the orans was reserved for the priest celebrant and was not for the deacon at all. Another visitor who was with me remarked on the same thing and spoke of seeing that at another parish in a different part of the country.

Is this an approved change in the liturgy?
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No it’s not at all appropriate. The deacon should be to the right of the celebrant and slightly behind, standing with hands together. At the epiclesis he is to kneel until after the elevation of the challis, if he is able to do so. It is acceptable for physical reasons to stand through the epiclesis. If there are two deacons they should hold the same posture to appear uniform. There is no time while standing next to the priest that you should see a deacon use the orans posture, not even during the Lord’s Prayer, his hands should be joined together at his chest.

This should be the same posture you see the deacon in almost the entire Mass. We see all kinds of gestures in Mass made by deacons, as if they are the celebrant. Remember, the reinstatement of the permanent diaconate is still in its fledgling stages and many bishops, priests, and especially deacons are still “learning” how to utilize deacons in Liturgy; it’s an on going education process to correct some of these issues. Part of the problem is there are so many inconsistencies within the priesthood where it comes to Liturgy. We have much to improve to bring the Sacred back into the Sacred Eucharistic Celebration.

In the case you mention, I would suggest trying to contact the pastor to try to advise the deacon in a way that is not a direct confrontation with you; that would not be fruitful. If you don’t feel you can do that, pray for the Grace to be able to ignore it and for the improvement of the formation program of your diocese and the continuing education of the current deacons.
 
not that I doubt what you say but what does the GIRM or other juridical Church document say about the stance of the deacon in the sanctuary during the Eucharistic prayer.
 
Georgia said:
I visited a parish recently when I noticed something that was new to me. The deacon stood behind and to the side of the priest at the altar as I have always seen during Eucharistic Prayer. While the priest said the Epiclesis, the deacon took the orans posture.

I thought the orans was reserved for the priest celebrant and was not for the deacon at all. Another visitor who was with me remarked on the same thing and spoke of seeing that at another parish in a different part of the country.

Is this an approved change in the liturgy?
Click to expand...
Georgia, are you sure it was a deacon and not a concelebrating priest? What you describe sounds like the latter.

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
Georgia, are you sure it was a deacon and not a concelebrating priest? What you describe sounds like the latter.

-Tim-
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It sure looked like concelebrating, but it was not. I met the deacon before Mass, so there was no doubt as to his office.He was vested as a deacon and was so listed at the parish.

My friend from another parish mentioned seeing the same thing elsewhere. I can only guess that an earlier post hit the nail on the head. There may be errors from time to time with the relatively new use of permanent deacons.
 
Georgia said:
It sure looked like concelebrating, but it was not. I met the deacon before Mass, so there was no doubt as to his office.He was vested as a deacon and was so listed at the parish.

My friend from another parish mentioned seeing the same thing elsewhere. I can only guess that an earlier post hit the nail on the head. There may be errors from time to time with the relatively new use of permanent deacons.
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Was the parish you visited in Georgia?

You won’t see this in Kennesaw, nor in Woodstock.

-Tim-
 
Georgia said:
I visited a parish recently when I noticed something that was new to me. The deacon stood behind and to the side of the priest at the altar as I have always seen during Eucharistic Prayer. While the priest said the Epiclesis, the deacon took the orans posture.

I thought the orans was reserved for the priest celebrant and was not for the deacon at all. Another visitor who was with me remarked on the same thing and spoke of seeing that at another parish in a different part of the country.

Is this an approved change in the liturgy?
Click to expand...
I like to give my brother deacons the benifit of the doubt. Deacons who are older and cannot get up easily are not required to kneel during Epiclesis.
As far as the the orans possition, I would want to know were his hands and arms were. Were they close to his body with palms up, I wouldn’t consider it the orans possition but perhaps just his way of respectful prayer.
If his hands were and arms were away from his body and elevated, then there could be an issue, however, there is not direction for the deacon if he does not kneel. Perhaps as the MC of the mass in his posture he is directing the congregation to focus on the altar.

Just an FYI to my brothers, even during the Lord’s Prayer the deacon is not prohibted from the orans possition and at least my ordinary has approved his deacons to do so, as is the customn in the majority of our parishes by the layity.

Deacon Frank
 
FAB said:
As far as the the orans possition, I would want to know were his hands and arms were. Were they close to his body with palms up, I wouldn’t consider it the orans possition but perhaps just his way of respectful prayer.
If his hands were and arms were away from his body and elevated, then there could be an issue, however, there is not direction for the deacon if he does not kneel. Perhaps as the MC of the mass in his posture he is directing the congregation to focus on the altar.

Just an FYI to my brothers, even during the Lord’s Prayer the deacon is not prohibted from the orans possition and at least my ordinary has approved his deacons to do so, as is the customn in the majority of our parishes by the layity.

Deacon Frank
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I can assure you in my diocese it is prohibited. The orans position is a posture of the priest at the altar.

This is also not a time for personal devotions as you point out could be a reason for the posture. If I am in the pew with my wife my posture is less important; however, if I am at the altar my personal devotions or posture preferences should be avoided.

I can see your point though. There is limited information of the full situation here.

Glad we agree on the kneeling/not kneeling part at least.
 
To answer FAB’s question: The deacon’s hands were up, about face level with the arms extended.
 
Lapey said:
I can assure you in my diocese it is prohibited. The orans position is a posture of the priest at the altar.

This is also not a time for personal devotions as you point out could be a reason for the posture. If I am in the pew with my wife my posture is less important; however, if I am at the altar my personal devotions or posture preferences should be avoided.

I can see your point though. There is limited information of the full situation here.

Glad we agree on the kneeling/not kneeling part at least.
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The OP says he had his arms extended. This sounds more like a concelebration. I really can’t imagine a deacon do this, but strange things do happen.

Before I was thinking less of a personal devotion and more of the Deacon as MC directing the congregation’s attention to the altar, but that doesn’t sound like the case.
 
Georgia said:
It sure looked like concelebrating, but it was not. I met the deacon before Mass, so there was no doubt as to his office.He was vested as a deacon and was so listed at the parish.

My friend from another parish mentioned seeing the same thing elsewhere. I can only guess that an earlier post hit the nail on the head. There may be errors from time to time with the relatively new use of permanent deacons.
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Do you know if he was a permenant or transitional deacon. Is transitional, in some part it would explain the posture, even though still not correct.
 
FAB said:
The OP says he had his arms extended. This sounds more like a concelebration. I really can’t imagine a deacon do this, but strange things do happen.

Before I was thinking less of a personal devotion and more of the Deacon as MC directing the congregation’s attention to the altar, but that doesn’t sound like the case.
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I understand what you mean now, thanks for the clarification.
 
Dcn. Jeff, thanks for your research on this thread. This puts it all in perspective with authority. Good job my brother!👍
 
Fascinating post. I learned quite a bit here, but then my gut was right from the get-go–although clergy like the priest, the deacon is not the priest and those gestures that the rubrics say are only for the priest should, therefore, be ONLY for the priest. Deacons would appear to have enough to do in assisting the celebrant.
 
Although I find this information interesting, it still falls under educated opinion.
I go back to were I always go back to and that is what does my ordinary allows and does not. At a recent gathering of deacons were my ordinary was present, this question of the
gesture of the deacon at the Lord’s prayer was asked, the answer was that the congregation prays with hands extended, the deacon should do the same. Since my ordinary in one of the Cardinals in the United States, I trust his instructions and by extending hands I am no committing a liturgical abuse.
The issue I think for us often as deacons is that even though we my find our best sources, on the gesture during the Lords Prayers by the laity does not have a final answer. The GIRM does not specifically address it and the missal only says “He extends his hands and, together with the people…”, it does not say “only he” . As such, until instructed otherwise,I follow with obedience my ordinary.

Dcn. Frank
 
FAB said:
Although I find this information interesting, it still falls under educated opinion.
I go back to were I always go back to and that is what does my ordinary allows and does not. At a recent gathering of deacons were my ordinary was present, this question of the
gesture of the deacon at the Lord’s prayer was asked, the answer was that the congregation prays with hands extended, the deacon should do the same. Since my ordinary in one of the Cardinals in the United States, I trust his instructions and by extending hands I am no committing a liturgical abuse.
The issue I think for us often as deacons is that even though we my find our best sources, on the gesture during the Lords Prayers by the laity does not have a final answer. The GIRM does not specifically address it and the missal only says “He extends his hands and, together with the people…”, it does not say “only he” . As such, until instructed otherwise,I follow with obedience my ordinary.

Dcn. Frank
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I can respect that Dcn. Frank. Some of our older deacons, I mean ordained in the 1970s and 1980s, still use this posture at the Lord’s Prayer, but not while serving with the Bishop…😃

As far as orans position during the consecration though I think we can all agree this is out of the norm.
 
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