Dead hell and mortal sin

[hilde_the_dog]

Okay over the years of watching CAF discussions the issue sinful souls going to hell stirs interest. I have seen Thistle state very clearly the position of the Catholic Church through the Catechism. I believe that a person who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to hell. How does that mesh with the following Biblical passage

2 Maccabbee 12
Expiation for the Dead.

38Judas rallied his army and went to the city of Adullam. As the seventh day was approaching, they purified themselves according to custom and kept the sabbath there. 39On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his companions went to gather up the bodies of the fallen and bury them with their kindred in their ancestral tombs. 40But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had fallen.f 41They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. 42* Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.g 43He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind; 44for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. **46Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin. **

Clearly, those who died were in a state of mortal sin for wearing the amulets and violated the Ten Commandments. The passage is clear that the actions of the living could atone for the sins of the dead. Or did this cease to to effective with New Covenant? And if our actions cannot effect the outcome for the dead - why pray for them?

 

[tobbias88]

A mortal sin is not something slight nor easy to commit. You must fulfill 3 conditions:

1. Grave matter. 2. Full knowledge. 3. Deliberate consent

The vast majority of humans, I believe, go to Purgatory - some for centuries, some for seconds if we believe the mystics. There they cannot help themsleves but we on earth can lessen their suffering & time there with our prayers.

Read Maria Simma (www.michaeljournal.org/simma.htm) who was regularly visited by Holy Souls (including suicides) begging for prayers & Masses.

 

[superamazingman]

Think about it from an eternal perspective (the real perspective, we’re quite limited by this whole time thing).You can most certainly pray now that people from the past might have died in God’s favor, via a last-moment conversion of heart.

Does that help?

 

[Louishacker]

The questiion may be that the soldiers were not guilty of mortal sin when they died. The note in the New American Bible states: “expiation could be made for certain sins of otherwise good men–soldiers who had given their lives for God’s cause. Thus they could share in the resurection,”

 

[dchezik]

A mortal sin is not something slight nor easy to commit. You must fulfill 3 conditions:

1. Grave matter. 2. Full knowledge. 3. Deliberate consent

The vast majority of humans, I believe, go to Purgatory - some for centuries, some for seconds if we believe the mystics. There they cannot help themselves but we on earth can lessen their suffering & time there with our prayers.

Read Maria Simma (www.michaeljournal.org/simma.htm) who was regularly visited by Holy Souls (including suicides) begging for prayers & Masses.

My Good Catholic Brothers: I ask you to consider the following scenario: A man who molested several children, forcing them to commit painful sodomy with him and who tortured and dismembered 17 young women before raping them; a man who has stolen and robbed and deceived hundreds of innocent elderly people, leaving them penniless and destitute; a man who deliberately infected scores of people, male and female, with HIV, is finally brought to justice. He is easily convicted and the judge must determine his sentence. When the judge asks the man to stand, he moons the judge and gives him the finger. Understandably angry, the judge sentences him to be tortured with flaming bamboo splints driven under his nails and to have a small piece of flesh ripped from his body every day for the rest of his life.

People cheer the sentence. But then the sinful and wicked Supreme Court of the United States steps in and says, “Whoa! This is not allowed under our constitution. The man indeed committed some heinous acts but our country’s constitution does not allow such cruel and unusual punishment. Torture is unconstitutional. A little water-boarding is ok, but torture with fire is forbidden.”

Now take another case. An average man committing an average number of sinful acts dies and must be sentenced by Almighty God. In his life he was an atheist, but relative to other humans, he was a good person. God, who others know to be loving, just, and merciful, decides his punishment is to be tortured by fire for all eternity – seems fair enough, after all, he had committed the horrible sin of not believing in God.

But then he gets a break. Some people who don’t know him – never heard of him – don’t know anything about him – pray for his soul. These prayers are quite effective and shorten this average person’s time in Hell by a few thousand years. At the end of his sentence, his soul is happy to leave Hell of course, but he feels some sympathy for the souls who must serve their full time because nobody prayed for them.

Does this make any sense to you? That the United States of America would be more just and merciful than Almighty God? That other people who never heard of you could determine your time in hell?

Just asking.

 

[bzkoss236]

My Good Catholic Brothers: I ask you to consider the following scenario: A man who molested several children, forcing them to commit painful sodomy with him and who tortured and dismembered 17 young women before raping them; a man who has stolen and robbed and deceived hundreds of innocent elderly people, leaving them penniless and destitute; a man who deliberately infected scores of people, male and female, with HIV, is finally brought to justice. He is easily convicted and the judge must determine his sentence. When the judge asks the man to stand, he moons the judge and gives him the finger. Understandably angry, the judge sentences him to be tortured with flaming bamboo splints driven under his nails and to have a small piece of flesh ripped from his body every day for the rest of his life.

People cheer the sentence. But then the sinful and wicked Supreme Court of the United States steps in and says, “Whoa! This is not allowed under our constitution. The man indeed committed some heinous acts but our country’s constitution does not allow such cruel and unusual punishment. Torture is unconstitutional. A little water-boarding is ok, but torture with fire is forbidden.”

Now take another case. An average man committing an average number of sinful acts dies and must be sentenced by Almighty God. In his life he was an atheist, but relative to other humans, he was a good person. God, who others know to be loving, just, and merciful, decides his punishment is to be tortured by fire for all eternity – seems fair enough, after all, he had committed the horrible sin of not believing in God.

But then he gets a break. Some people who don’t know him – never heard of him – don’t know anything about him – pray for his soul. These prayers are quite effective and shorten this average person’s time in Hell by a few thousand years. At the end of his sentence, his soul is happy to leave Hell of course, but he feels some sympathy for the souls who must serve their full time because nobody prayed for them.

Does this make any sense to you? That the United States of America would be more just and merciful than Almighty God? That other people who never heard of you could determine your time in hell?

Just asking.

Just to correct you on a few things.

Purgatory is not hell, and the suffering in purgatory is not the same as in hell, because those in purgatory have the expectation of reaching heaven when their time is through. Hell is eternal, and those that go to hell are there forever and by their own choosing and will not get to heaven. God is merciful, but his mercy and grace must be accepted by us. He does not force anything on us.

 

[Lost_and_Found_1]

Correct me if I’m wrong here but aren’t we destined for hell from birth? And isn’t that why Jesus was born, lived and resurrected?

I once heard an Evangelical Minister say something that makes a lot of sense…to me anyway. "Say I knocked on the door of the most expensive home in the country and said to them; “excuse me but I’m moving in with you because I’m a “good” person!” What do you think the owners of that home would say? No, right; of course not. And we wouldn’t expect them to allow us to move in. They don’t know us. It’s not based on whether they are good or loving, or whether we are a good person. We have to have a relationship with them. In the same way, we have to have a relationship with Him. He is not our Father if we reject Jesus. He offers to be our Father throughout our whole life, but we are the ones who reject Him. So why would we expect to move into His house without knowing Him? We have no right. This relationship is our choice. What will you choose?

Bill Wiess

 

[dusza]

My Good Catholic Brothers: I ask you to consider the following scenario: A man who molested several children, forcing them to commit painful sodomy with him and who tortured and dismembered 17 young women before raping them; a man who has stolen and robbed and deceived hundreds of innocent elderly people, leaving them penniless and destitute; a man who deliberately infected scores of people, male and female, with HIV, is finally brought to justice. He is easily convicted and the judge must determine his sentence. When the judge asks the man to stand, he moons the judge and gives him the finger. Understandably angry, the judge sentences him to be tortured with flaming bamboo splints driven under his nails and to have a small piece of flesh ripped from his body every day for the rest of his life.

People cheer the sentence. But then the sinful and wicked Supreme Court of the United States steps in and says, “Whoa! This is not allowed under our constitution. The man indeed committed some heinous acts but our country’s constitution does not allow such cruel and unusual punishment. Torture is unconstitutional. A little water-boarding is ok, but torture with fire is forbidden.”

Now take another case. An average man committing an average number of sinful acts dies and must be sentenced by Almighty God. In his life he was an atheist, but relative to other humans, he was a good person. God, who others know to be loving, just, and merciful, decides his punishment is to be tortured by fire for all eternity – seems fair enough, after all, he had committed the horrible sin of not believing in God.

But then he gets a break. Some people who don’t know him – never heard of him – don’t know anything about him – pray for his soul. These prayers are quite effective and shorten this average person’s time in Hell by a few thousand years. At the end of his sentence, his soul is happy to leave Hell of course, but he feels some sympathy for the souls who must serve their full time because nobody prayed for them.

Does this make any sense to you? That the United States of America would be more just and merciful than Almighty God? That other people who never heard of you could determine your time in hell?

Just asking.

Well, the atheist doesn’t want to be with God in eternity and there’s no other happy place for him. He goes where he chooses. Kinda makes sense to me.

 

[jcrichton]

Okay over the years of watching CAF discussions the issue sinful souls going to hell stirs interest. I have seen Thistle state very clearly the position of the Catholic Church through the Catechism. I believe that a person who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to hell. How does that mesh with the following Biblical passage

2 Maccabbee 12
Expiation for the Dead.

38Judas rallied his army and went to the city of Adullam. As the seventh day was approaching, they purified themselves according to custom and kept the sabbath there. 39On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his companions went to gather up the bodies of the fallen and bury them with their kindred in their ancestral tombs. 40But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had fallen.f 41They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. 42* Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.g 43He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind; 44for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. **46Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin. **

Clearly, those who died were in a state of mortal sin for wearing the amulets and violated the Ten Commandments. The passage is clear that the actions of the living could atone for the sins of the dead. Or did this cease to to effective with New Covenant? And if our actions cannot effect the outcome for the dead - why pray for them?

…I think you are combining two distinct issues… those who die in complete defiance of God and those who through weakness/ignorance die short of the Grace that’s needed to exist in the presence of God.

Prior to the Incarnation of the Word there was no means of reconciliation with God other than the prescribed offerings for sins… hence the offering for the dead (a practice that was continued with the Baptism for the dead at the onset of Christianity); those who die in hatred of God are people whose souls cannot be helped because they shun Salvation (Christ) so the Church’s Teaching on Purgatory is beyond them since they reject God’s Salvific Plan in its entirety; Believers who die is a state of reconciliation, whose beings (body and soul) have been tarnished by sin may need the purification offered by Purgation (Purgatory) and would wholeheartedly welcame the Communion of the Church as she assist them in this very important passage into purification, can be helped…

I hope this helps!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

My Good Catholic Brothers: I ask you to consider the following scenario: A man who molested several children, forcing them to commit painful sodomy with him and who tortured and dismembered 17 young women before raping them; a man who has stolen and robbed and deceived hundreds of innocent elderly people, leaving them penniless and destitute; a man who deliberately infected scores of people, male and female, with HIV, is finally brought to justice. He is easily convicted and the judge must determine his sentence. When the judge asks the man to stand, he moons the judge and gives him the finger. Understandably angry, the judge sentences him to be tortured with flaming bamboo splints driven under his nails and to have a small piece of flesh ripped from his body every day for the rest of his life.

People cheer the sentence. But then the sinful and wicked Supreme Court of the United States steps in and says, “Whoa! This is not allowed under our constitution. The man indeed committed some heinous acts but our country’s constitution does not allow such cruel and unusual punishment. Torture is unconstitutional. A little water-boarding is ok, but torture with fire is forbidden.”

Now take another case. An average man committing an average number of sinful acts dies and must be sentenced by Almighty God. In his life he was an atheist, but relative to other humans, he was a good person. God, who others know to be loving, just, and merciful, decides his punishment is to be tortured by fire for all eternity – seems fair enough, after all, he had committed the horrible sin of not believing in God.

But then he gets a break. Some people who don’t know him – never heard of him – don’t know anything about him – pray for his soul. These prayers are quite effective and shorten this average person’s time in Hell by a few thousand years. At the end of his sentence, his soul is happy to leave Hell of course, but he feels some sympathy for the souls who must serve their full time because nobody prayed for them.

Does this make any sense to you? That the United States of America would be more just and merciful than Almighty God? That other people who never heard of you could determine your time in hell?

Just asking.

did the atheist repent from his rejection of God?

Would the man on your scenario truly repent from his wickedness?

…while both have to deal with temporal punisment for their crimes, only the one who repents and turns to God is able to exist in the presence of God–both and neither can be Saved as *they *choose to reject/accept God.

…we have the perfect example of this on the Crucifixion: one man rejects God to the bitter end… he of course does not see the need to turn to God’s Mercy; the other man comes to terms with his wickedness, acknowledges that he is wrong in holding on to such life and asks for Mercy–this man receives God’s Mercy!

May your good deeds convict you of your need to abide in Christ so that He may Abide in you and your Salvation be gained through God’s Mercy!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Correct me if I’m wrong here but aren’t we destined for hell from birth? And isn’t that why Jesus was born, lived and resurrected?

I once heard an Evangelical Minister say something that makes a lot of sense…to me anyway. "Say I knocked on the door of the most expensive home in the country and said to them; “excuse me but I’m moving in with you because I’m a “good” person!” What do you think the owners of that home would say? No, right; of course not. And we wouldn’t expect them to allow us to move in. They don’t know us. It’s not based on whether they are good or loving, or whether we are a good person. We have to have a relationship with them. In the same way, we have to have a relationship with Him. He is not our Father if we reject Jesus. He offers to be our Father throughout our whole life, but we are the ones who reject Him. So why would we expect to move into His house without knowing Him? We have no right. This relationship is our choice. What will you choose?

Bill Wiess

Catholic Teaching does not state that we are destined for hell; rather that we are born with Original Sin (Adam’s Disobedience) hence are born with predisposition to sin… God’s Salvific Plan includes the Sacrament of Baptism which not only initiates us into the Body of Christ but purifies us from sin; it is the Chruch’s Obligation to instruct us in the Faith so that our initiation does not become our only step into the Body–Christ did not only come to grant us freedom from the Original Sin but from damnation in hell as He is the True Sacrificial Lamb Who Died for our Salvation.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Mystophilus]

Clearly, those who died were in a state of mortal sin for wearing the amulets and violated the Ten Commandments. The passage is clear that the actions of the living could atone for the sins of the dead. Or did this cease to to effective with New Covenant? And if our actions cannot effect the outcome for the dead - why pray for them?

Did the discrimination between mortal sin and venial sin exist prior to the New Covenant?

 

[fred_conty]

Hidethedog you mentioned,
“Thus he made atonement for the dead that they MIGHT BE absolved from their sin.”

This line was not written as
“Thus he made atonement for the dead that they ARE absolved from their sin.”

“might be” expresses only hope.

Just a thought.

 

[joe370]

My Good Catholic Brothers: I ask you to consider the following scenario: A man who molested several children, forcing them to commit painful sodomy with him and who tortured and dismembered 17 young women before raping them; a man who has stolen and robbed and deceived hundreds of innocent elderly people, leaving them penniless and destitute; a man who deliberately infected scores of people, male and female, with HIV, is finally brought to justice. He is easily convicted and the judge must determine his sentence. When the judge asks the man to stand, he moons the judge and gives him the finger. Understandably angry, the judge sentences him to be tortured with flaming bamboo splints driven under his nails and to have a small piece of flesh ripped from his body every day for the rest of his life.

People cheer the sentence. But then the sinful and wicked Supreme Court of the United States steps in and says, “Whoa! This is not allowed under our constitution. The man indeed committed some heinous acts but our country’s constitution does not allow such cruel and unusual punishment. Torture is unconstitutional. A little water-boarding is ok, but torture with fire is forbidden.”

Now take another case. An average man committing an average number of sinful acts dies and must be sentenced by Almighty God. In his life he was an atheist, but relative to other humans, he was a good person. God, who others know to be loving, just, and merciful, decides his punishment is to be tortured by fire for all eternity – seems fair enough, after all, he had committed the horrible sin of not believing in God.

But then he gets a break. Some people who don’t know him – never heard of him – don’t know anything about him – pray for his soul. These prayers are quite effective and shorten this average person’s time in Hell by a few thousand years. At the end of his sentence, his soul is happy to leave Hell of course, but he feels some sympathy for the souls who must serve their full time because nobody prayed for them.

Does this make any sense to you? That the United States of America would be more just and merciful than Almighty God? That other people who never heard of you could determine your time in hell?

Just asking.

I think you make a valid point. However, God’s ways are not my ways so obviously I cannot answer your question. I think it comes down to the fact that God is pure unadulterated ineffable love, and if we manage to find our way to God, living with God for all eternity, then we will experience the kind of love that is so perfect and unknowable, from our current perspective, that it will be constantly made new over and over for all eternity. Now, regarding the total separation from God, reverse that…

As far as people who have never heard of you, determining your time (my time if it comes to that) - in purgatory does in fact make sense to me, if we remember that it is God alone Who is making the determination, based on our prayers. All prayer is channelled through God and is designed to bring people closer together and closer to God. Those souls in purgatory feel the effects of our prayer and when they reach the beatific vision they will in turn pray those of us that prayed for them, which will bring God’s grace down upon us, (the only thing that can truly draw us closer to one another and ultimately to God) and we of course can either ignore His grace or embrace it.

 

[fred_conty]

Original Sin means that we do not have the life of the holy Spirit within our soul.
Anyone not having the life of God within their soul cannot attain heaven.

Sacramental Baptism restores this life of God to us which Adam lost in the garden.
Once this life is restored, we now are part of the kingdom of God which includes the heavenly kingdom.

Without Baptism of water, blood, or desire(direct/indirect), we cannot enter heaven.

And since we cannot always know what transpires in the heart of another person, we cannot always know if a person does or dosen’t have the desire for baptism.

Just a thought.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

In Proverbs it says that the just man falls seven times a day.

Now a man could not be just if he mortally sinned seven times a day–he could be just if he venially sinned seven times a day!

I’m not saying that the Jewish people of proverbs time could have understood that distinction but i believe it was there regardless.

 

[dchezik]

In Proverbs it says that the just man falls seven times a day.

Now a man could not be just if he mortally sinned seven times a day–he could be just if he venially sinned seven times a day!

I’m not saying that the Jewish people of proverbs time could have understood that distinction but i believe it was there regardless.

Here’s something for you to think about: What if I committed adultery with the same woman seven times on one day (I think I could do it)? Would that be 7 sins or could you count them altogether as a single mortal sin? When is the act of sinning technically complete? What if you ate seven pieces of pork on Friday during Lent (or is that a sin that only Jews and Muslims can commit?). Would that be seven mortal sins or just written off as one pork orgy?

Just askingl

 

[fred_conty]

Here’s something for you to think about: What if I committed adultery with the same woman seven times on one day (I think I could do it)? Would that be 7 sins or could you count them altogether as a single mortal sin? When is the act of sinning technically complete? What if you ate seven pieces of pork on Friday during Lent (or is that a sin that only Jews and Muslims can commit?). Would that be seven mortal sins or just written off as one pork orgy?

Just askingl

If he ate 7 pieces at one sitting, then one sin.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

If he committed adultery seven times that would be 7 sins.

If he venially fell seven time he would still be just because God would not leave his soul over venial sins–he would leave his soul over mortal sins.

 

[jcrichton]

Here’s something for you to think about: What if I committed adultery with the same woman seven times on one day (I think I could do it)? Would that be 7 sins or could you count them altogether as a single mortal sin? When is the act of sinning technically complete? What if you ate seven pieces of pork on Friday during Lent (or is that a sin that only Jews and Muslims can commit?). Would that be seven mortal sins or just written off as one pork orgy?

Just askingl

…the problem is intent not the number of times… once determined to sin (even if only in thought) the sin has been committed… a person does not need to go to a Priest to Confess each individual occurrence of a sin (stole 7 times, blasphemed 22, hated 107, 200 immoral acts, 722 oppressive ones, etc.)… but must, in mind and heart, be determined not to commit him/herself to sin as part of the Sacramental Confession–it is pertinent to note that a person does not deceive God by pretending to Confess while consciously holding on to sin or being committed to the sin he/she is purports to repudiate during the Sacrament… though the Priest is the temporal witness and has the obligation to offer reconciliation with God, ultimately, it is God’s Holy Spirit that will Convict us of that Sacramental Reconciliation: empty gestures gets us nothing!

Maran atha!

Angel