Dead vs Living

[expectthebest]

Does the Church teach anything in regards to why the dead cannot communicate directly with the living?

 

[06convert]

When you say communicate with the living. Are you talking like ghosts, like a sayonce? Or a Ouji board?

 

[expectthebest]

I am saying openly communicate. Nothing secretive. Whether through audible speech or actuall appearance doesn’t matter. Wouldn’t direct communication with the Church Triuphant be a wonderful thing? Even better, Jesus Himself! There wouldn’t be a need for all this speculation. There wouldn’t be a need for arguing within or outside of the Church. It seems to me that if God would allow such a thing, many more would be saved. I’m not talking about sayonces or anything. I’m talking about God allowing direct communication with the entire Communion of Staints as a source of knowlege and inspiration.

 

[Joe_5859]

Well, first, God is not God of the dead, but God of the living (Mt 22:32).

Many people throughout history have seen apparitions of Mary or other saints in heaven. I would call this pretty strong communication between the Church Triumphant and the Church Militant. And these apparitions have led to many, many conversions.

 

[Della]

I am saying openly communicate. Nothing secretive. Whether through audible speech or actuall appearance doesn’t matter. Wouldn’t direct communication with the Church Triuphant be a wonderful thing? Even better, Jesus Himself! There wouldn’t be a need for all this speculation. There wouldn’t be a need for arguing within or outside of the Church. It seems to me that if God would allow such a thing, many more would be saved. I’m not talking about sayonces or anything. I’m talking about God allowing direct communication with the entire Communion of Staints as a source of knowlege and inspiration.

St. Thomas posed basically the same question when he declared he wouldn’t believe in Jesus’ Resurrection until he had proof–putting his hands into the nail holes and the spear gash in Jesus’ side. What was Jesus’ response? “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.”

God wants us to have faith based on the truths taught and preached by his Church. We will see him face to face (and all those who have gone before us to be with God) at the time God has appointed. Until then, he is seen and known within his Church. Jesus established it that way because man has the obligation to undo the evils he has done by being transformed and being a witness in the world to the transformative power of God. God did his part by sending his Son, not it’s our part to make his Son known and loved.

 

[Little_Katie]

Well, first, God is not God of the dead, but God of the living (Mt 22:32).

Many people throughout history have seen apparitions of Mary or other saints in heaven. I would call this pretty strong communication between the Church Triumphant and the Church Militant. And these apparitions have led to many, many conversions.

I myself was just thinking of St. Joan of Arc and her communications w/ Saints Catherine, Michael, and Margarette.

 

[expectthebest]

Well, first, God is not God of the dead, but God of the living (Mt 22:32).

Many people throughout history have seen apparitions of Mary or other saints in heaven. I would call this pretty strong communication between the Church Triumphant and the Church Militant. And these apparitions have led to many, many conversions.

Maybe, maybe not. This kind of thing has been very few and far between and certainly not in a public way where all could see.

 

[expectthebest]

St. Thomas posed basically the same question when he declared he wouldn’t believe in Jesus’ Resurrection until he had proof–putting his hands into the nail holes and the spear gash in Jesus’ side

.

Yes, and he is a Saint. Why would the rest of us deserve less?

 

[expectthebest]

God wants us to have faith based on the truths taught and preached by his Church. We will see him face to face (and all those who have gone before us to be with God) at the time God has appointed. Until then, he is seen and known within his Church. Jesus established it that way because man has the obligation to undo the evils he has done by being transformed and being a witness in the world to the transformative power of God. God did his part by sending his Son, not it’s our part to make his Son known and loved.

This still does not answer my original question as to the “why”.

 

[mlchance]

Yes, and he is a Saint. Why would the rest of us deserve less?

Jesus answered this question. See Matthew 20:1-16. In short, you’ve already been given what you were promised, and you didn’t deserve that to begin with.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Della]

.

Yes, and he is a Saint. Why would the rest of us deserve less?

You seemed to have missed the point. St. Thomas did not deserve to see the Risen Christ any more than the rest of us. Jesus appeared to those he had chosen to be his Apostles. None of us were so chosen.

The point is God wants us to believe without seeing. When we are united with him at the end of time we will no longer need to believe because we will see.

Now we live as fallen people. God doesn’t want us to remain in that state of being. We have to live our lives trusting in him so that we prove to him, not he to us, that we love him for himself alone. If God had wanted to simply overwhelm us with his presence he wouldn’t have come to us as a little Child but as a conqueror. He isn’t like that with us–he wants us to love him first and see him when each of our time has come. Seeing people in heaven on a daily basis wouldn’t be proof it would be asking us to see how imperfect we are and so cause us to despair, not give us hope. God knows what he’s doing and why.

 

[expectthebest]

Jesus answered this question. See Matthew 20:1-16. In short, you’ve already been given what you were promised, and you didn’t deserve that to begin with.

– Mark L. Chance.

Not the same thing. This passage has to do with the posibility of salvation even up to the last hour.

 

[expectthebest]

You seemed to have missed the point. St. Thomas did not deserve to see the Risen Christ any more than the rest of us. Jesus appeared to those he had chosen to be his Apostles. None of us were so chosen.

The point is God wants us to believe without seeing. When we are united with him at the end of time we will no longer need to believe because we will see.

Now we live as fallen people. God doesn’t want us to remain in that state of being. We have to live our lives trusting in him so that we prove to him, not he to us, that we love him for himself alone. If God had wanted to simply overwhelm us with his presence he wouldn’t have come to us as a little Child but as a conqueror. He isn’t like that with us–he wants us to love him first and see him when each of our time has come. Seeing people in heaven on a daily basis wouldn’t be proof it would be asking us to see how imperfect we are and so cause us to despair, not give us hope. God knows what he’s doing and why.

I agree that God wants us to believe without seeing. But what if someone doesn’t? Does that person not get the same chance that St. Thomas did or is Justice not equal?

Seeing people in heaven on a daily basis wouldn’t be proof it would be asking us to see how imperfect we are and so cause us to despair, not give us hope.

I disagree. I think many more would be saved. Wouldn’t that make it worth it?

 

[Della]

I agree that God wants us to believe without seeing. But what if someone doesn’t? Does that person not get the same chance that St. Thomas did or is Justice not equal?

St. Thomas wasn’t privileged to see heaven and the righteous dead there on a daily basis. That was your question. Neither are we. Jesus appeared on one occasion for a specific purpose–that’s the point of the passage.

I disagree. I think many more would be saved. Wouldn’t that make it worth it?

If it would save many more God would do what you propose. It wouldn’t, so God doesn’t do it. You seem to think that everyone has good will towards God and heaven. That’s not the case. Remember at the judgment people will see God and still reject him. Seeing God and heaven will not make anyone do what s/he does not want to do–admit s/he’s a sinner in need of God’s mercy and grace. If it would, God would do it.

 

[mlchance]

Not the same thing.

Not exactly the same thing, but notice the workers who were whining about things not being fair. That’s what you’re doing by thinking you deserve the same gift as the Apostle Thomas. Also, given the number of posts you have in this thread regarding the possibility of salvation, your objection is disengenuous at best.

As I said, Jesus Christ already kept his promise to you. You don’t deserve more, and you didn’t deserve that to begin with.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[expectthebest]

If it would save many more God would do what you propose. It wouldn’t, so God doesn’t do it.

There is no possible way that you could know this. Frankly, I think it’s illogical to think that more wouldn’t be saved with outright, indesputable, direct contact with God or the Saints.

You seem to think that everyone has good will towards God and heaven. That’s not the case. Remember at the judgment people will see God and still reject him. Seeing God and heaven will not make anyone do what s/he does not want to do–admit s/he’s a sinner in need of God’s mercy and grace. If it would, God would do it.

True, but at judgement, it’s too late. One cannot repent and accept God at judgement if they did not accept God on earth. Why this is true, I don’t know. But that’s what the Church teaches, if I’m not mistaken…which I often am.

 

[placido]

I am saying openly communicate. Nothing secretive. Whether through audible speech or actuall appearance doesn’t matter. Wouldn’t direct communication with the Church Triuphant be a wonderful thing? Even better, Jesus Himself! There wouldn’t be a need for all this speculation. There wouldn’t be a need for arguing within or outside of the Church. It seems to me that if God would allow such a thing, many more would be saved. I’m not talking about sayonces or anything. I’m talking about God allowing direct communication with the entire Communion of Staints as a source of knowlege and inspiration.

God incarnate was physically here on earth and you know what? The overwhelming majority rejected Him. I can’t imagine something beter than God Incarnate.

 

[placido]

If it would save many more God would do what you propose. It wouldn’t, so God doesn’t do it.

There is no possible way that you could know this. Frankly, I think it’s illogical to think that more wouldn’t be saved with outright, indesputable, direct contact with God or the Saints.

I think your proposed “easy salvation plan” was proposed by the rich man (in the parable) and rejected by Abraham. Why? Because we have “Moses and the Prophets” - let’s hear them.

 

[Della]

There is no possible way that you could know this. Frankly, I think it’s illogical to think that more wouldn’t be saved with outright, indesputable, direct contact with God or the Saints.

Yes, I can. How can I know this? Because God doesn’t do it.

True, but at judgement, it’s too late. One cannot repent and accept God at judgement if they did not accept God on earth. Why this is true, I don’t know. But that’s what the Church teaches, if I’m not mistaken…which I often am.

You are mistaken, but not for the reason you think. Each of us will undergo personal judgment upon our deaths and the general judgment at the end of the world. They are separate events.

All through our lives God gives us opportunities to live according the grace we’ve been given. People choose to harden their hearts and so live as sinners, going day to day with no remorse and no intention of repenting. The more they sin, the more they harden their hearts until they are incapable of seeing God without the distortions of their hardened hearts and minds blinding them.

Consider the servant in the parable who made the excuse for not investing his talent: “I knew you were a hard man, reaping where you did not sow.” In other words, “I didn’t stand a chance anyway because you, Master, are unjust.” And that is the constant cry of the hardened heart–“It’s all God’s fault, not mine.”

People WILL not see God as loving, not that God isn’t loving, and so they condemn themselves.

 

[pprimeau1976]

Does the Church teach anything in regards to why the dead cannot communicate directly with the living?

By accepting the scriptures to be true, the Church has taught that the “dead” can communicate with the living. 1 Samuel 28 tells of how the prophet Samuel chastised King Saul from beyond the grave.