Dealing with ｓｔｒｏｎｇｌｙ 'feminist' views when discussing religion...help needed?

[Kouyate42]

OK, I’ve found myself talking increasingly about my religious beliefs with someone I’m very good friends with. Now, it must be said that so far, this friend of mine has been mostly polite in both answering questions that I ask and also listening to my own answers and questions.

The problem I have in all of this is something which is coming up time and time again, and which seems to be an area of major conflict. The problem is that she seems to have this strongly ‘feminazi’ type attitude which has gone between the idea of female empowerment (not a bad thing) and has now gone to a point where now basically anything which stops her from doing as she pleases is abhorrent to her.

It’s not the idea of God which is the problem, but the issue of following rules or commandments as part of serving God. And particularly where these rules mean that she would really have to radically change some aspect of her life or where she would have to moderate some lifestyle choice to any extent.

So, how do I discuss this issue with her? What can I say to her?

 

[andremiguel]

OK, I’ve found myself talking increasingly about my religious beliefs with someone I’m very good friends with. Now, it must be said that so far, this friend of mine has been mostly polite in both answering questions that I ask and also listening to my own answers and questions.

The problem I have in all of this is something which is coming up time and time again, and which seems to be an area of major conflict. The problem is that she seems to have this strongly ‘feminazi’ type attitude which has gone between the idea of female empowerment (not a bad thing) and has now gone to a point where now basically anything which stops her from doing as she pleases is abhorrent to her.

It’s not the idea of God which is the problem, but the issue of following rules or commandments as part of serving God. And particularly where these rules mean that she would really have to radically change some aspect of her life or where she would have to moderate some lifestyle choice to any extent.

So, how do I discuss this issue with her? What can I say to her?

I do not think there is another way to deal with the question but to head on: who rules the world? She? God?
Unless you dissect this problem, you get nowhere.
She is trampling into God’s powers, so let us be clear on which ground one stands…

 

[in_servitude]

It’s not the idea of God which is the problem, but the issue of following rules or commandments as part of serving God. And particularly where these rules mean that she would really have to radically change some aspect of her life or where she would have to moderate some lifestyle choice to any extent.

So, how do I discuss this issue with her? What can I say to her?

One question to ask is, “While you were a child in your father’s house, were you able to do whatever you pleased? Or, were you required to obey your father?”

Who knows how that would go - but if she is required to obey her father, then the point might be made that if her own father had to be obeyed, then how much more will obedience be required while we live with Our Father in Heaven in His house he has prepared for us??

 

[Kouyate42]

I do not think there is another way to deal with the question but to head on: who rules the world? She? God?
Unless you dissect this problem, you get nowhere.
She is trampling into God’s powers, so let us be clear on which ground one stands…

I think this is where the issue lies.

 

[in_servitude]

I think this is where the issue lies.

My high school physics teacher was fond of saying, “Hey! I didn’t make the place, I just observe it.” I’ve modified that line to say, “Hey! I didn’t make the rules, I just observe them.”

 

[andremiguel]

I think this is where the issue lies.

So, my next favorite question to those people is: “Where will you be in 100 years (or 1 million years, just look, we study that the dinosaurs lived 100 million years ago so the question is not out of place…)?” and just sip a little bear to enjoy the answer…

 

[andremiguel]

My high school physics teacher was fond of saying, “Hey! I didn’t make the place, I just observe it.” I’ve modified that line to say, “Hey! I didn’t make the rules, I just observe them.”

Your physics teacher was exceptional believer for most scientists today pretend that they created the whole thing…

 

[LucyLight]

Point out where men are limited. You will never win with smart alec remarks. You’ll just come off as not understanding her point of view.

If the priesthood is what she is having an issue with. Point out what happened to the first priests (apostles) and that priests are in a position of service. They don’t live in mansions, have modest means and are chaste. Maybe Christ was sparing women from this calling as a way to elevate their status. Kind of like chivalry.

She might have ideas about the church which are not true. Popular ones are that women are suppossed to be baby making factories and can’t work out of the home. Completely false. The other big one is that wives are subject to their husbands. Again this is false because the subjection is mutual. You could point out though that a lot of protestant denominations who believe in sola scriptura do believe that latter point to be true.

Hope this helps.

 

[stiffkittenbabe]

People on this website have often labelled me as “feminist”, but I am not quite sure why. What issues specifically are you disagreeing on?
As far as I can see, there are very few bones of contention between the church and feminism, because all it means is that we believe in equal and just treatment for all people. Ok, so nuns aren’t saying mass. This is not because of any direct church teaching that I know of, more of a hangover from the old days when men were more effective at speaking in public because nobody listened to women back then.

 

[stiffkittenbabe]

If for example, she is claiming that the church is an inherently chauvinistic organisation: you can bring to her attention all the women who escaped marriage( feminist translation: slavery) by becoming nuns. Even the whole pro-life thing can be construed as going in women’s favour: it means that men have responsibilities in sex, and it also means that a man who has been irresponsible has no means of escaping that responsibility anymore.

Opposition to abortion can also act as an incentive for men not to rape. I live alone in a very sexist town, and I believe that despite the many dangerous situations I have been in, and the clothes I wear, the reason this hasn’t happened to me whereas it has to a lot of my friends is because every man who speaks to me knows that I would not abort, were he to commit an act of hatred against women on me. This does not mean there is any excuse for doing this to people who do not share my views however. But abortion does provide a “get out of jail free” card for men who rape because it disposes of the evidence.

Anyway, as Catholics, our biggest ICON is an unmarried mum, the mother of Jesus.

 

[LittleRose]

The problem I have in all of this is something which is coming up time and time again, and which seems to be an area of major conflict. The problem is that she seems to have this strongly ‘feminazi’ type attitude which has gone between the idea of female empowerment (not a bad thing) and has now gone to a point where now basically anything which stops her from doing as she pleases is abhorrent to her.

It’s not the idea of God which is the problem, but the issue of following rules or commandments as part of serving God. And particularly where these rules mean that she would really have to radically change some aspect of her life or where she would have to moderate some lifestyle choice to any extent.

So, how do I discuss this issue with her? What can I say to her?

The problem with much of modernism, including radical feminism, is a distorted view of what freedom is. Many people believe freedom means being allowed to do whatever you feel like doing. Rules, therefore, are seen as oppressive because they limit the power of the individual will to follow its whims. This is where we get things like "If you love me you’ll not judge me and accept that I do X " Of course, what this really means is, “if you love me you will approve of everything I do”.

For a present day radical feminist, rules (and even requests) coming from a male source are seen as controlling.

Your friend will continue to be obstinate until she understands that freedom is about knowing what is good and right being able to do it without reservation or hindrance, not about worship of one’s own will.

 

[antunesaa]

Anyway, as Catholics, our biggest ICON is an unmarried mum, the mother of Jesus.

You bet it. The Virgin Mary is our beacon, our refuge, our intercessor. Apart Our Lord, Our Lady is the most potent argument for the truth of our faith. No wonder our Muslim brothers kept them both in their faith! They honor her as a great saint. I pray that she will be the way for them to embrace the fulness of the faith one day.

 

[Kouyate42]

The problem with much of modernism, including radical feminism, is a distorted view of what freedom is. Many people believe freedom means being allowed to do whatever you feel like doing. Rules, therefore, are seen as oppressive because they limit the power of the individual will to follow its whims. This is where we get things like "If you love me you’ll not judge me and accept that I do X " Of course, what this really means is, “if you love me you will approve of everything I do”.

For a present day radical feminist, rules (and even requests) coming from a male source are seen as controlling.

This has always been my view on the whole issue.

Your friend will continue to be obstinate until she understands that freedom is about knowing what is good and right being able to do it without reservation or hindrance, not about worship of one’s own will.

To my mind, I am even more free because of the rules I am meant to follow. My hijab means I am free from harassment and free to concentrate on my mind as opposed to getting harassed by people over looks. Praying 5 times a day means I’m disciplined and also mindful of the consequences (good or bad) of my actions at all times and of God.

I find it ironic that many of the people who do as they please are often the most unhappy.

You bet it. The Virgin Mary is our beacon, our refuge, our intercessor. Apart Our Lord, Our Lady is the most potent argument for the truth of our faith. No wonder our Muslim brothers kept them both in their faith! They honor her as a great saint. I pray that she will be the way for them to embrace the fulness of the faith one day.

Yep!

For Muslims, Maryam (Mary) is the perfect example of devotion to God.

 

[LucyLight]

Opposition to abortion can also act as an incentive for men not to rape. I live alone in a very sexist town, and I believe that despite the many dangerous situations I have been in, and the clothes I wear, the reason this hasn’t happened to me whereas it has to a lot of my friends is because every man who speaks to me knows that I would not abort, were he to commit an act of hatred against women on me. This does not mean there is any excuse for doing this to people who do not share my views however. But abortion does provide a “get out of jail free” card for men who rape because it disposes of the evidence.

Where do you live? That’s horrible that that would be the norm. The way that women are treated in much of the world is truly disturbing. :hug1:

 

[andremiguel]

If for example, she is claiming that the church is an inherently chauvinistic organisation: you can bring to her attention all the women who escaped marriage( feminist translation: slavery) by becoming nuns. Even the whole pro-life thing can be construed as going in women’s favour: it means that men have responsibilities in sex, and it also means that a man who has been irresponsible has no means of escaping that responsibility anymore.

Opposition to abortion can also act as an incentive for men not to rape. I live alone in a very sexist town, and I believe that despite the many dangerous situations I have been in, and the clothes I wear, the reason this hasn’t happened to me whereas it has to a lot of my friends is because every man who speaks to me knows that I would not abort, were he to commit an act of hatred against women on me. This does not mean there is any excuse for doing this to people who do not share my views however. But abortion does provide a “get out of jail free” card for men who rape because it disposes of the evidence.

Anyway, as Catholics, our biggest ICON is an unmarried mum, the mother of Jesus.

Moving post.
I am dumbfounded. Look, I heard what you said in sermons and I thought that the priest was exaggerating and a bit out of this world.
But hearing what I hear, from you, in the way you put it, with the truthfulness that a woman may being for she is inside the game, it is just too much not to be true. But had not come from you, it is hard to believe.

At the same time, is shows a hidden miserable thought of the macho gender to which I sometimes am ashamed to belong.

Anyhow, your conclusion is superb and shows a very balanced soul.

Congratulations, lady, (if this is the way to put it) !

 

[Lady_Love]

Unfortunately, our society has trained women NOT to trust. We have been told that men are out to dominate, control us and use us as objects. We are taught to FEAR men not rely on them to protect us. This is how the devil has driven a wedge between the sexes.

Not only that, women are bombarded with advertisements constantly telling us we are not good enough, not valuable, and constantly degrading our intended dignity. We have been trained to protect ourselves from men (as though they are an enemy).

I did some feminizing training to re-feminize myself. This involved learning to believe that I was lovable, beautiful, worth protecting and being provided for and to be receptive to being served…just receptive in general. I also had to learn that I did not have to protect my self FROM men but be protected BY men. It was so hard to de-program myself. It was amazing. Once I made the shift, men are always doing things for me, helping me, defending me, etc. I really feel like a Queen and men really feel like heroes. Men seem to get so much satisfaction out of helping me, serving me and seeing me smile. They often comment on how much they appreciate that “I let them help me.” because so many women deny them.

I had to learn that it was a man’s desire and nature to be a Hero. I learned that in order for men to be my hero I had to let them take the stage a little. I had to learn not to steal their thunder by putting them down. It was the strangest thing for me to build a man up because I was afraid that if I did then they would think they were too good for me and stop helping me or abandon me. When in fact the opposite was true. The men became MORE loyal to me.

My fiance’ wants to do EVERYTHING for me. Gosh, I wouldn’t even have to leave the couch if I didn’t want to. All he cares about is that I am happy. If I am happy then he feels like he is doing a good job. It’s amazing what a man will do for a woman who thinks of him as her hero.

This is true feminine power at work.

I don’t know that you can teach her this but fortunately there is a world-wide movement to regain a true feminine spirit of trust, peace, encouragement, surrender, and humility. I can guarantee you that Mary, the Queen, lived in such a way that she let her son Jesus be her hero. I will pray for her. I am sure she is probably miserable and frustrated as a femi-nazi. She is sacrificing what she really wants, which is genuine relationship and dignity, for domination, manipulation, and coercion.

 

[LucyLight]

Unfortunately, our society has trained women NOT to trust. We have been told that men are out to dominate, control us and use us as objects. We are taught to FEAR men not rely on them to protect us. This is how the devil has driven a wedge between the sexes.QUOTE]

I think that women have been warned to not trust all men. Any responsible father will not just send his daughter out the door with some boy he doesn’t know. On the other hand he probably would not be too worried about his son leaving with a girl. If a strange man comes to my door and I’m home alone I will not answer the door. This is just common sense and something I’ve learned from my parents not some “feminazi”. Women probably need to be more cautious of men and seek out only moral guys who respect women and avoid the "bad boyz’ so that they can trust them. Unfortunately, both genders tend to prioritze shallow characteristics when looking for a mate.

 

[Lady_Love]

Lady Love;9381424:

Unfortunately, our society has trained women NOT to trust. We have been told that men are out to dominate, control us and use us as objects. We are taught to FEAR men not rely on them to protect us. This is how the devil has driven a wedge between the sexes.QUOTE]

I think that women have been warned to not trust all

men. Any responsible father will not just send his daughter out the door with some boy he doesn’t know. On the other hand he probably would not be too worried about his son leaving with a girl. If a strange man comes to my door and I’m home alone I will not answer the door. This is just common sense and something I’ve learned from my parents not some “feminazi”. Women probably need to be more cautious of men and seek out only moral guys who respect women and avoid the "bad boyz’ so that they can trust them. Unfortunately, both genders tend to prioritze shallow characteristics when looking for a mate.

I was definitely using generalities and never meant to imply that women should indiscriminately trust all men. But a woman can TRUST that every man has it in him to be a hero and every woman possesses what she needs to draw it out of him.

 

[LucyLight]

LucyLight;9381587:

I was definitely using generalities and never meant to imply that women should indiscriminately trust all men. But a woman can TRUST that every man has it in him to be a hero and every woman possesses what she needs to draw it out of him.

Not to nit pick here but this is a common mistake a lot of women make. They think they can take a less than stellar guy and do x,y,z and change him. There are truly evil people in this world (men & women) and don’t trust that you can change them. Women should seek out guys that are already God fearing respectful men and not assume that they can mold some guy into becoming this.

 

[stiffkittenbabe]

We cannot automatically award our trust to every person who walks into our life! If you do that unconditionally instead of with discernment then you will get yourself into a whole heap of trouble. Not every man is Christ-like, and indeed there are many abusive men who even try using scripture to justify their appalling actions.
Common sense is what is needed here, rather than simply applying religious discrimination to one’s dating life.