Dealing with ｓｔｒｏｎｇｌｙ 'feminist' views when discussing religion...help needed?

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stiffkittenbabe said:
We cannot automatically award our trust to every person who walks into our life! If you do that unconditionally instead of with discernment then you will get yourself into a whole heap of trouble. Not every man is Christ-like, and indeed there are many abusive men who even try using scripture to justify their appalling actions.
Common sense is what is needed here, rather than simply applying religious discrimination to one’s dating life.
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Someone needs a hug :hug3:
 
LucyLight said:
Lady Love;9382086:
Not to nit pick here but this is a common mistake a lot of women make. They think they can take a less than stellar guy and do x,y,z and change him. There are truly evil people in this world (men & women) and don’t trust that you can change them. Women should seek out guys that are already God fearing respectful men and not assume that they can mold some guy into becoming this.
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It’s not about molding men or changing them. It’s about understanding men and what makes them blossom. It’s embracing the power that we have as women to influence and encourage the best in men.

“The most dangerous woman in the world is the one who does not know how powerful she is.” -Justin Sterling
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LucyLight said:
Not to nit pick here but this is a common mistake a lot of women make. They think they can take a less than stellar guy and do x,y,z and change him. There are truly evil people in this world (men & women) and don’t trust that you can change them. Women should seek out guys that are already God fearing respectful men and not assume that they can mold some guy into becoming this.
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If a woman tries to change me, it should be for the better. She should also be very careful in doing it, because I tend to take serious offense when women try and turn me into a pet or a slave!
 
Kouyate42 said:
OK, I’ve found myself talking increasingly about my religious beliefs with someone I’m very good friends with. Now, it must be said that so far, this friend of mine has been mostly polite in both answering questions that I ask and also listening to my own answers and questions.

The problem I have in all of this is something which is coming up time and time again, and which seems to be an area of major conflict. The problem is that she seems to have this strongly ‘feminazi’ type attitude which has gone between the idea of female empowerment (not a bad thing) and has now gone to a point where now basically anything which stops her from doing as she pleases is abhorrent to her.

It’s not the idea of God which is the problem, but the issue of following rules or commandments as part of serving God. And particularly where these rules mean that she would really have to radically change some aspect of her life or where she would have to moderate some lifestyle choice to any extent.

So, how do I discuss this issue with her? What can I say to her?
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Wow, I just realized my FIL is a “feminazi”. He’s the same way. Anything that stops him from doing as he pleases is abhorrent to him. He’s very much against anyone having (name removed by moderator)ut on ABC. Church on Sunday’s. Rules in general.

I suppose you could use one of my answers to him with her. Not that it will change her mind anymore than it did his.

“Sure, I’d like to sit around and eat ice cream and bon bons all day, but for some reason my body just gets bigger and fatter and more unhealthy doing that.” 🤷

Believe it or not, this is not a Woman issue. It just feels that way, because you’re talking to a confident out spoken woman.

How would you deal with this question if she were a man? Why do you have to deal differently between men and women on the same question.

Do you not know men that don’t understand why they shouldn’t marry other men and have sex with them?

Do you not know men that don’t understand why they shouldn’t sleep around if married or have premarital sex?

Does she not realize that our rules apply to human race. Not just to women? Maybe not.
 
LucyLight said:
Lady Love;9382086:
Not to nit pick here but this is a common mistake a lot of women make. They think they can take a less than stellar guy and do x,y,z and change him. There are truly evil people in this world (men & women) and don’t trust that you can change them.
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Women should seek out guys that are already God fearing respectful men and not assume that they can mold some guy into becoming this.

Yes, like ACTUAL Nazis.

I really dislike the term feminazi. I get what people mean. But when I hear the word nazi, I think of people who collected a group of others based on race and tortured them. Men, Women and children, and then killed them in horrific manners.

When I hear a man call a woman a feminazi, I hear a man comparing her to truly evil people. It’s a gross comparison. I imagine to anyone that actually suffered the holocoust it is a little off putting to use such an exageration.

I can see how the argument is lost in that moment. When one exagerates to this extreme, then one seems to state they don’t have any strong arguements. So they will now rely on name calling.

Most women are looking to be treated fairly. The moment they stand up in defense they are called such trashy names.Well, no wonder they choose to stand up and then steam roll. Why not? They’ve already been classified as the worst.
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faithfully said:
snip
Believe it or not, this is not a Woman issue. It just feels that way, because you’re talking to a confident out spoken woman.
How would you deal with this question if she were a man? Why do you have to deal differently between men and women on the same question.
Do you not know men that don’t understand why they shouldn’t marry other men and have sex with them?
Do you not know men that don’t understand why they shouldn’t sleep around if married or have premarital sex?
Does she not realize that our rules apply to human race. Not just to women? Maybe not.
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Problem I have is that in dealing with my friend, she seems to think that being female somehow makes her opinion more ‘weighty’ and more worthy of respect. She finds my opinions on things like female modesty or whatever doubly abhorrent, firstly because she simply disagrees with my opinion (which would be fine in itself), but also because somehow the idea that a woman such as myself can hold such opinions. I’m made to feel that I’m somehow both wrong in my opinion, but also a ‘traitor to my gender’ in her eyes.

This is the major difference in dealing with her, and dealing with a man who holds the same opinions.
 
faithfully said:
Wow, I just realized my FIL is a “feminazi”. He’s the same way. Anything that stops him from doing as he pleases is abhorrent to him. He’s very much against anyone having (name removed by moderator)ut on ABC. Church on Sunday’s. Rules in general.

I suppose you could use one of my answers to him with her. Not that it will change her mind anymore than it did his.

“Sure, I’d like to sit around and eat ice cream and bon bons all day, but for some reason my body just gets bigger and fatter and more unhealthy doing that.” 🤷

Believe it or not, this is not a Woman issue. It just feels that way, because you’re talking to a confident out spoken woman.

How would you deal with this question if she were a man? Why do you have to deal differently between men and women on the same question.

Do you not know men that don’t understand why they shouldn’t marry other men and have sex with them?

Do you not know men that don’t understand why they shouldn’t sleep around if married or have premarital sex?

Does she not realize that our rules apply to human race. Not just to women? Maybe not.
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Every once in a while someone posts something that is truly thought provoking. This is such a good point. 👍
 
Kouyate42 said:
Problem I have is that in dealing with my friend, she seems to think that being female somehow makes her opinion more ‘weighty’ and more worthy of respect. She finds my opinions on things like female modesty or whatever doubly abhorrent, firstly because she simply disagrees with my opinion (which would be fine in itself), but also because somehow the idea that a woman such as myself can hold such opinions. I’m made to feel that I’m somehow both wrong in my opinion, but also a ‘traitor to my gender’ in her eyes.

This is the major difference in dealing with her, and dealing with a man who holds the same opinions.
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I still don’t see a difference between men and women here. She’s basically telling you that your opinion doesn’t count because it doesn’t match hers. Which is the basic premise of why she could not follow certain religious guidelines. Her opinion doesn’t match theirs so they are wrong. Everyone is wrong unless their opinions match her. Where is the equality and freedom of choice in that.

She wants your female freedom by controling your female opinions?

I’m a woman btw… I don’t get it.
 
Kouyate42 said:
This has always been my view on the whole issue.

** To my mind, I am even more free because of the rules I am meant to follow. My hijab means I am free from harassment and free to concentrate on my mind as opposed to getting harassed by people over looks. Praying 5 times a day means I’m disciplined and also mindful of the consequences (good or bad) of my actions at all times and of God**.

I find it ironic that many of the people who do as they please are often the most unhappy.

Yep! 👍

For Muslims, Maryam (Mary) is the perfect example of devotion to God.
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From what I recall, you praised the enforcement of the full body hijab on women (in countries like Saudi Arabia) within the context of an earlier thread about how Islam actually treats women when it has political power.

Personally, that makes your talk of liberation look a lot more dubious to me.

P.S. I found the thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=668077

I forgot how long that thread got.
 
Kouyate42 said:
Problem I have is that in dealing with my friend, she seems to think that being female somehow makes her opinion more ‘weighty’ and more worthy of respect. She finds my opinions on things like female modesty or whatever doubly abhorrent, firstly because she simply disagrees with my opinion (which would be fine in itself), but also because somehow the idea that a woman such as myself can hold such opinions. I’m made to feel that I’m somehow both wrong in my opinion, but also a ‘traitor to my gender’ in her eyes.

This is the major difference in dealing with her, and dealing with a man who holds the same opinions.
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Are you still a Muslim who supports things like mandatory hijabs for women?
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
Are you still a Muslim who supports things like mandatory hijabs for women?
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:eek:

In my language, wife is traditionally called the “boss”. In old times, man came with wages and gave it all to the “boss” and asked some coins to drink wine…
 
faithfully said:
LucyLight;9383256:
Yes, like ACTUAL Nazis.

I really dislike the term feminazi. I get what people mean. But when I hear the word nazi, I think of people who collected a group of others based on race and tortured them. Men, Women and children, and then killed them in horrific manners.

When I hear a man call a woman a feminazi, I hear a man comparing her to truly evil people. It’s a gross comparison. I imagine to anyone that actually suffered the holocoust it is a little off putting to use such an exageration.

I can see how the argument is lost in that moment. When one exagerates to this extreme, then one seems to state they don’t have any strong arguements. So they will now rely on name calling.

Most women are looking to be treated fairly. The moment they stand up in defense they are called such trashy names.Well, no wonder they choose to stand up and then steam roll. Why not? They’ve already been classified as the worst.
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I agree. That term is extremely insulting to women and makes the person using it look ignorant.

ALL human beings struggle with submission, and it doesn’t make any of them “Nazi’s”. It makes them human.

Our job is not to make people want to obey, that job belongs to Jesus. Our job is to share Him with them, share why He means so much to us and how he changed our lives. Then, we pray that He will soften their hearts and they will reach out for Him. When they accept His love and grace, their lives will begin to change.
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My advice is to check out Feminists For Life’s (website and Wikipedia entry, esp for its honorary co-chairs Patricia Heaton and Margaret Colin).

Terry
 
In many cases a person, who is seemingly hung up on one discussion point, has found a working way of copeing with what they do not want to discuss. The argument as stated is seemingly simply hiding the person’s truth. The proverbial elephant in the middle of the room situation. Go a little deeper with this woman and find what the real fear is. Many people avoid deeper faith movement because they fear they will be wrong in their choice. Fears of humans so limit many lives and hide their self very well. You can argue the mistaken point forever and it will never change because it is not the problem
 
As far as I know she may of been objecting to something objectionable. You said this has to do with stuff like female modesty which is a grey area. And if you a for women having to wear a full hijab the issue might be with you and not with her. Its a cop out to disregard someone else’s views because you think that they have an agenda.
 
LucyLight said:
As far as I know she may of been objecting to something objectionable. You said this has to do with stuff like female modesty which is a grey area. And if you a for women having to wear a full hijab the issue might be with you and not with her. Its a cop out to disregard someone else’s views because you think that they have an agenda.
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Are you talking about Kouyate42?

Because if so, I know she has an agenda (of course, so do most people).
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
Are you talking about Kouyate42?

Because if so, I know she has an agenda (of course, so do most people).
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Yup. My point was that she was discounting what they other woman was saying because she believed she was a feminist. She also portrayed this woman as not accepting Catholic truths. But who knows what was being discussed. If someone believes that women should wear a full hijab I would disagree with them as well.
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
Are you still a Muslim who supports things like mandatory hijabs for women?
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I’ve kind of evolved from that point of believing that haya (modesty) and hijab are purely issues of what you’re wearing or what’s on your head. To my mind sitting here now, they’re also about good manners, conduct, deeds and words.

I still believe them to be necessary to good conduct though.
LucyLight said:
As far as I know she may of been objecting to something objectionable. You said this has to do with stuff like female modesty which is a grey area. And if you a for women having to wear a full hijab the issue might be with you and not with her. Its a cop out to disregard someone else’s views because you think that they have an agenda.
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Problem with anyone who has an agenda is that they aren’t willing to hear all sides of any one argument, and simply cherry pick what they feel supports their views. They’re not there to learn anything, or even to entertain the possibility of changing their mind.

The modesty issue is one very small side of it and to be fair, seems on her part to be little more than a ad hominem attack on myself because it must be said, she knows little of Islam or about women in Islam. She has never once asked me WHY I wear it in a reasonable manner. If she asked me, I would tell her happily and she would be free to either accept it or disagree with me, and me with her.

also, regarding my own views on hijab, read above. I’m also not forcing her, or indeed anyone, to wear the actual physical headscarf. This is something I would never do.
 
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