Dealing with ｓｔｒｏｎｇｌｙ 'feminist' views when discussing religion...help needed?

[Luigi_Daniele]

Kinda neat

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
Are you still a Muslim who supports things like mandatory hijabs for women?

I’ve kind of evolved from that point of believing that haya (modesty) and hijab are purely issues of what you’re wearing or what’s on your head. To my mind sitting here now, they’re also about good manners, conduct, deeds and words.

I still believe them to be necessary to good conduct though.

.

I will take that as a yes.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I’ve kind of evolved from that point of believing that haya (modesty) and hijab are purely issues of what you’re wearing or what’s on your head. To my mind sitting here now, they’re also about good manners, conduct, deeds and words.

I still believe them to be necessary to good conduct though.

Problem with anyone who has an agenda is that they aren’t willing to hear all sides of any one argument, and simply cherry pick what they feel supports their views. They’re not there to learn anything, or even to entertain the possibility of changing their mind.

The modesty issue is one very small side of it and to be fair, seems on her part to be little more than a ad hominem attack on myself because it must be said, she knows little of Islam or about women in Islam. She has never once asked me WHY I wear it in a reasonable manner. If she asked me, I would tell her happily and she would be free to either accept it or disagree with me, and me with her.

also, regarding my own views on hijab, read above. I’m also not forcing her, or indeed anyone, to wear the actual physical headscarf. This is something I would never do.

But do you support those who would (like the Saudis)?

 

[Kouyate42]

I will take that as a yes.

You must have missed that bit where I state that I use the term ‘hijab’ to describe good manners, morals and conduct as well as the scarf.

But do you support those who would (like the Saudis)?

I can think of possibly two countries where the wearing of hijab is legally mandatory (Iran and Saudi Arabia) and a third where it was mandatory, but is now more relaxed (Afghanistan).

And to answer your question, I respect the rights of each individual country and their leaders/Government to make the correct decision as to their own country’s needs.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
But do you support those who would (like the Saudis)?

And to answer your question, I respect the rights of each individual country and their leaders/Government to make the correct decision as to their own country’s needs.

Really?

What if a Western country decided to outlaw Islam?
Would you respect that?

 

[3DOCTORS]

One question to ask is, “While you were a child in your father’s house, were you able to do whatever you pleased? Or, were you required to obey your father?”

Who knows how that would go - but if she is required to obey her father, then the point might be made that if her own father had to be obeyed, then how much more will obedience be required while we live with Our Father in Heaven in His house he has prepared for us??

This sparked the thought in my mind that perhaps the young woman who is an extremist about feminism might have father issues. Perhaps her father was a bully or abuser or other negative male role model.

 

[Kouyate42]

Really?

What if a Western country decided to outlaw Islam?
Would you respect that?

Then I would leave, as the Qur’an teaches that where the practice of Islam is not allowed, a believer should make hijrah to another more tolerant country.

 

[Terry_Washingto]

Then I would leave, as the Qur’an teaches that where the practice of Islam is not allowed, a believer should make hijrah to another more tolerant country.

It would be virtually unconstitutional(not to mention) illegal for any Western country to outlaw the practise of Islam according to not just international but domestic law- compare that to Saudi Arabia where even the private religious services(Christian or Hindu) are forbidden and avowed Jews are banned from entry to the Kingdom- just something to think about when you hear moans about “Islamophobia”( shades of “anti-Sovietism” during the Cold War from Kremlin propagandists!).

Terry

 

[Captain_America]

My education was in philosophy, and such things as critical literary theory, critical sociological theory and feminism have always seemed to be pretty thin “philosophies” and not comprehensive of all questions.

I’ve run into a good many feminist such as your friend. Her mind just may be closed. She may like it better that way.

If she is emotionally stable, you might just talk philosophy in general, not about God. And avoid areas where she might lurch into rote-feminist stuff.

I’ve known feminists who were feminists because they were single and it was them against the world, and feminists who were motivated by anger at specific males they knew. I’ve known many motivated by the “equal pay” political issue, and I’ve known some who envied the sexual libertinism of some of the men they knew (why, I just don’t know; that’s not a basket of roses at all ).

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
Really?

What if a Western country decided to outlaw Islam?
Would you respect that?

Then I would leave, as the Qur’an teaches that where the practice of Islam is not allowed, a believer should make hijrah to another more tolerant country.

I am not asking what you would do if you were living in such a country.
I am asking whether or not you believe countries have the right to treat individuals and specific religions (such as Islam) that way.

Do countries have a right to outlaw religions like Christianity or Islam?

 

[PeterJohn]

Do countries have a right to outlaw religions like Christianity or Islam?

the right based on what playing field?
Gods playing field in the eyes of a Christian, Muslim, or Jew?
The UN human rights playing field?
American human rights playing field?
Communistic rights playing field?

 

[LucyLight]

This sparked the thought in my mind that perhaps the young woman who is an extremist about feminism might have father issues. Perhaps her father was a bully or abuser or other negative male role model.

I kinda doubt that her views are extreme. The OP believes in women being forced to wear a full hijab. So perhaps the “feminist” just wants to wear pants, drive a car or think for herself.

 

[Kouyate42]

I kinda doubt that her views are extreme. The OP believes in women being forced to wear a full hijab. So perhaps the “feminist” just wants to wear pants, drive a car or think for herself.

Actually if you read some posts back, I quite clearly state that I would not want to see mandatory hijab for anyone, and indeed my belief has shifted towards a less literal view that hijab isn’t purely a matter of dress but manners, behavior and customs which promote modesty AS WELL AS modest dress.

Also, it might be worth pointing out a Muslimah is free to wear pants (I’m wearing them right now!), drive a car or seek education and form their own opinions. I fail to see what connection these things have to Islam.

I am not asking what you would do if you were living in such a country.
I am asking whether or not you believe countries have the right to treat individuals and specific religions (such as Islam) that way.

Do countries have a right to outlaw religions like Christianity or Islam?

the right based on what playing field?
Gods playing field in the eyes of a Christian, Muslim, or Jew?
The UN human rights playing field?
American human rights playing field?
Communistic rights playing field?

These two posts answer each other. Quite simply there is little real grounds to ban a religion or belief system. Certainly the First Amendment would pretty much put a stop to that.

Let’s put it this way: I’d love to see Scientology banned, as I believe it to be a creepy, brainwashing cult with disturbing practices and ludicrous beliefs. But if that were to happen, it would likely be argued by others of other beliefs that Islam could be banned for much the same reason. And someone would argue against THAT belief system. And the whole thing goes round in circles without end.

 

[Captain_America]

OP: you should be Catholic. Give it a shot.

 

[Kouyate42]

OP: you should be Catholic. Give it a shot.

I couldn’t possibly be Catholic…

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Originally Posted by 3DOCTORS
This sparked the thought in my mind that perhaps the young woman who is an extremist about feminism might have father issues. Perhaps her father was a bully or abuser or other negative male role model.

I kinda doubt that her views are extreme. The OP believes in women being forced to wear a full hijab. So perhaps the “feminist” just wants to wear pants, drive a car or think for herself.

That’s a good point.
I personally believe that women (such as Ann Coulter) who become rich and famous telling other women that they shouldn’t worry about becoming rich and famous (and instead just focus on being a happy homemaker) should be laughed out of the room whenever they open their mouths.

And on a related note…
Why should women who promote the idea that only male opinions have value (or at least are automatically more important than female ones) be surprised when their own views are dismissed or ignored (even by other women)?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Actually if you read some posts back, I quite clearly state that I would not want to see mandatory hijab for anyone, and indeed my belief has shifted towards a less literal view that hijab isn’t purely a matter of dress but manners, behavior and customs which promote modesty AS WELL AS modest dress.

**Also, it might be worth pointing out a Muslimah is free to wear pants (I’m wearing them right now!), drive a car or seek education and form their own opinions. I fail to see what connection these things have to Islam. **

These two posts answer each other. Quite simply there is little real grounds to ban a religion or belief system. Certainly the First Amendment would pretty much put a stop to that.

Let’s put it this way: I’d love to see Scientology banned, as I believe it to be a creepy, brainwashing cult with disturbing practices and ludicrous beliefs. But if that were to happen, it would likely be argued by others of other beliefs that Islam could be banned for much the same reason. And someone would argue against THAT belief system. And the whole thing goes round in circles without end.

Then let me explain it as simply as possible.
Saudi Arabia is a theocracy.
Islam is THE official religion in Saudi Arabia.
Practices such as banning women from driving or wearing pants are justified (by the Saudis and others) on Islamic grounds.

 

[Captain_America]

re: “substance” of women’s views

If you spend a great deal of time reading philosophy, you find that much feminist theory is simply thin stuff. It just doesn’t cover the bases. For this reason, many dismiss the feminist Project.

Reality is more than female.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

re: “substance” of women’s views

If you spend a great deal of time reading philosophy, you find that much feminist theory is simply thin stuff. It just doesn’t cover the bases. For this reason, many dismiss the feminist Project.

Reality is more than female.

What (if anything) is that supposed to mean?

 

[Kouyate42]

Then let me explain it as simply as possible.
Saudi Arabia is a theocracy.
Islam is THE official religion in Saudi Arabia.
Practices such as banning women from driving or wearing pants are justified (by the Saudis and others) on Islamic grounds.

Not this argument again…

Saudi Arabia =/= the total sum of Islam. It’s merely one form of Islam and a particularly strict one at that, and one that has been criticized even by other Muslims. Might be worth pointing out that out of the billion Muslims on this planet, less than 20% of them live in the MIddle East, and even fewer of them are Saudi/live in Saudi Arabia.

And there is no passage in the Qur’an which states ‘women should not drive’ or 'women shouldn’t wear pants, at least not explicitly. It must be said that much of what constitutes the Saudi interpretation of Islam has been criticized by learned 'aliim (scholars) as stretching interpretation of Qur’anic passages VERY thinly.

Also, on the pants issue, Pakistani and Indian women would want a word with you:

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