Dealing with ｓｔｒｏｎｇｌｙ 'feminist' views when discussing religion...help needed?

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Kouyate42 said:
Not this argument again…

Saudi Arabia =/= the total sum of Islam. It’s merely one form of Islam and a particularly strict one at that, and one that has been criticized even by other Muslims. Might be worth pointing out that out of the billion Muslims on this planet, less than 20% of them live in the MIddle East, and even fewer of them are Saudi/live in Saudi Arabia.

And there is no passage in the Qur’an which states ‘women should not drive’ or 'women shouldn’t wear pants, at least not explicitly. It must be said that much of what constitutes the Saudi interpretation of Islam has been criticized by learned 'aliim (scholars) as stretching interpretation of Qur’anic passages VERY thinly.

Also, on the pants issue, Pakistani and Indian women would want a word with you:

http://www.fashionstylestrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Indian-Salwar-Kameez.jpg
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There are religous extremes in all religions who say things like women should only wear dresses/skirts. Than there is the example you gave which is even more extreme than that. Your picture shows a woman wearing not only a dress but pants underneath it as well. Not exactly what I meant when I said wearing pants.

I’m all for women dressing modestly if they want to (veiling, dresses with pants etc.). I’m against women being forced or shamed into these things. If I lived in an Islamic country I would probably be labeled a radical feminist too. I would make a hijrah to another more tolerant country.

So why can’t you possibly be Catholic?
 
LucyLight said:
There are religous extremes in all religions who say things like women should only wear dresses/skirts. Than there is the example you gave which is even more extreme than that. Your picture shows a woman wearing not only a dress but pants underneath it as well. Not exactly what I meant when I said wearing pants.
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Technically the picture I posted shows a tunic top and pants. I just did a search for a ‘salwar kameez’ and that was the first pic I found. I could find some better examples than that should I need to do so.

The whole issue about whether women should wear pants or not has been going on for years in Islam and indeed in religious circles of all religions, including Jewish and Christian groups. There’s a massive argument about Muslim women’s clothing and whether it should always be black, or whether it can be other colours, which seems to come back time and time again, only to suddenly quiet down again.
I’m all for women dressing modestly if they want to (veiling, dresses with pants etc.). I’m against women being forced or shamed into these things. If I lived in an Islamic country I would probably be labeled a radical feminist too. I would make a hijrah to another more tolerant country.
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I’ll agree with you there, although it must be said that even my own country is not innocent of imposing dress rules upon people (it used to be that you had to wear a wool hat on certain days, and only certain classes could wear some colours/fabrics. Even the use of fur was controlled by law).

It must also be pointed out here that few Muslim countries actually impose specific dress codes upon their citizens, with the possible exceptions of Saudi Arabia, which has a strict modesty code covering ALL items of clothing, and Iran which has rules on the hijab and chador (a form of cloak) only. Many others specify modesty without actually stating specific instructions or rules. Turkey, which is secular Islamic, has gone so far as to state that hijab is not allowed in any public building.

Personally I believe that hijab isn’t purely an issue of cloth on your head, but a personal relationship with God which then gives you the ability to discern what hijab means for you personally. Some see the niqab as helping them in their faith, whilst for others that hijab is more hidden inside and so they choose to wear no actual physical headscarf.
So why can’t you possibly be Catholic?
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Because to my mind, the Christian theology is logically impossible.
 
Kouyate42 said:
Technically the picture I posted shows a tunic top and pants. I just did a search for a ‘salwar kameez’ and that was the first pic I found. I could find some better examples than that should I need to do so.

The whole issue about whether women should wear pants or not has been going on for years in Islam and indeed in religious circles of all religions, including Jewish and Christian groups. There’s a massive argument about Muslim women’s clothing and whether it should always be black, or whether it can be other colours, which seems to come back time and time again, only to suddenly quiet down again.

I’ll agree with you there, although it must be said that even my own country is not innocent of imposing dress rules upon people (it used to be that you had to wear a wool hat on certain days, and only certain classes could wear some colours/fabrics. Even the use of fur was controlled by law).

It must also be pointed out here that few Muslim countries actually impose specific dress codes upon their citizens, with the possible exceptions of Saudi Arabia, which has a strict modesty code covering ALL items of clothing, and Iran which has rules on the hijab and chador (a form of cloak) only. Many others specify modesty without actually stating specific instructions or rules. Turkey, which is secular Islamic, has gone so far as to state that hijab is not allowed in any public building.

Personally I believe that hijab isn’t purely an issue of cloth on your head, but a personal relationship with God which then gives you the ability to discern what hijab means for you personally. Some see the niqab as helping them in their faith, whilst for others that hijab is more hidden inside and so they choose to wear no actual physical headscarf.

Because to my mind, the Christian theology is logically impossible.
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So what theology do you follow?
 
Kouyate42 said:
Not this argument again…

Saudi Arabia =/= the total sum of Islam. It’s merely one form of Islam and a particularly strict one at that, and one that has been criticized even by other Muslims. Might be worth pointing out that out of the billion Muslims on this planet, less than 20% of them live in the MIddle East, and even fewer of them are Saudi/live in Saudi Arabia.

** And there is no passage in the Qur’an which states ‘women should not drive’ or 'women shouldn’t wear pants, at least not explicitly**. It must be said that much of what constitutes the Saudi interpretation of Islam has been criticized by learned 'aliim (scholars) as stretching interpretation of Qur’anic passages VERY thinly.

Also, on the pants issue, Pakistani and Indian women would want a word with you:

http://www.fashionstylestrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Indian-Salwar-Kameez.jpg
Click to expand...
Its worth noting that the Koran explicitly states that a woman’s value is half that of a man’s.
 
Kouyate42 said:
The ‘Bismillah’ in my sig, the niqabi avatar and the Arabic picture in my sig should tell you I follow Islamic theology.
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Well it also says “confused, searcing” so it seems like you are unsure.
 
Kouyate42 said:
Exactly! :thu:

Fact is that if it’s modest, Muslim women are free to wear what they please, including pants.
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LOL

No…

I have relatives living in Jordan (one of the more liberal Middle Eastern Muslim nations) and women there certainly cannot wear whatever they want.

Here are some verses from the Koran for context:

4:11 and 4:176) – (Inheritance) “The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females”
(5:6) – “And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it”
 
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