Dealing with an Jewish Atheist

[hilarycotter]

My extended family has a Jewish husband and wife who are very charming people. A week ago I got into a long animated but very friendly conversation on the existence of God primarily with the husband - he is in his late 80’s.

I felt I was able to hold my own and land some punches, but was unhappy with how we dealt with the question of evil.

He brought up the fact that at Yom Kippur Jews atone for the sins they had committed the previous year, and God will write in the book of life what is in store for believing Jews for the following year. “You mean to tell me that God wrote that each on of the 6 million Jews were to die in the concentration camps that next year?” He asked.

I responded that evil like life is a mystery. If we lived lives of pleasure we would never think of our creator. He essentially dismissed that as mental weakness - I countered that everyone wrestles with the existential questions of who am I, where am I going, what am I hear for. And that atheism is a recent phenomena - was everyone feeble minded before that? I also pointed out that people who know they are going to die, all prepare for their death - they make peace with the world and God.

We also wrestled with what happens when we die. He said how do we know that there is an afterlife. I pointed out the out of body experiences people have when they die and are resuscitated. He explained that was hallucinations. I said if you want physical proof I can’t give any - but we believe in intangibles like justice - why can’t we accept other immeasurable quantities like a soul.

I also brought up the coliseum martyrs, the uniqueness of the Christian and Jewish faith and how it had stood the test of time, and the miracles at Lourdes.

All in all I felt unsatisfied with my arguments.

I realize it is a loosing battle, but I would appreciate if anyone could give me sources for good arguments to deal with Atheism perhaps tailored to non-religious Jews as I feel that he has absorbed the fashionable post war ennui that I see many elderly Jews exhibiting.

 

[CarrieH]

Sorry, I don’t have any arguments here, but I know the frustration of trying to discuss matters of faith with atheists – I am a convert from a family where my father is an atheist and my mother is an agnostic. There is a saying, “for those who have faith, no argument is necessary; for those who have no faith, no argument is sufficient.” Sometimes all we can do is to give a good example through our own lives and to pray for people’s conversion. Any attempt to convert my parents would only lead to hostility and possible estrangement. So I pray for them, offer penances on their behalf, and leave the rest up to God.

A friend of mine from college years ago was a “secular Jew.” His mother had fled the Nazis, getting out of Germany a mere three weeks before they closed the borders. He was raised with her attitude of, “if this is what religion is all about, who needs it?” So they recognized certain cultural things about being Jewish, but chose to ignore the religious aspect. AFAIK, his mother died as an agnostic.

God bless you for caring about these people.

 

[vera_dicere]

About 20 years ago (seesh) I had a sub teacher who had been in Auschwitz and had survived. His father had been a Rabbi and his mother a teacher before the war. His parents and his much older brother’s inlaws and children were gassed on arrivial due to their ages. His brother, his sister in law, and three other siblings all died during their time there.

He was the only one who survived from his family and everyone he had known from before the camps died.

His opinion had become that “How can a God allow such religious people to perish?” He told us he had spent years grappling with this question and was essentially an Atheist. But he then told us that one day he realised that it was man who committed such evil, and God had nothing to do with it, else He’d tamper with our ability to choose Him freely.

At which point, he acknowledged that he was more akin to being agnostic.

I never saw him again, so I can’t say whether or not in his final years he came back to God. But, he did make a point that religion got a lot of people through, faith and hope, he said had kept a lot of people going. He then went on to tell us stories about people running into teh electric fences to kill themselves. It was quite a heavy conversation for a bunch of Catholic 9 year olds!!

Anyway, kudos to you for your concern, and it seems to me, and as mentioned above, that atheists/agnostics can’t really be convinced by us mere mortals, they need themselves a divine intervention, so keep doign what you’re doing.

 

[aicirt]

I too believe in Divine Intervention re. athethists. I just recently discovered a 70 yr. old friend who is an atheist but born a Catholic, did not know that Catholics believe in the Real Presence. I am praying for him. Recently, EWTN showed “Has Science Discorved God?”. This is dialogue between an elderly atheist and an elderly Jew both scientists. The Jew proves God in creation through mathematics. Wonderful show!! Later, I learned the atheist converted. It was an answer to my prayer. When I see it being aired, I’ll have my friend watch it. He’s math minded.

About your friend. I don’t know how some kept their faith but they did. There’s a movie/DVD called “Swimming in Aushwitz”. On HBO. Six elderly Jewish women talk about their experiences. Another is the survivor who St. Maximillian Kolbe rescued by taking his place so he could live. That man gave testimony through speeches around the world. He may have passed on but I’m sure he was videotaped.

Their was a Polish woman who was to receive the Nobel Peace Prize for her efforts in rescuing Jewish children during WWII. They went with Arafat instead, go figure.

 

[Mojoforyeshua]

Well, when the question of evil comes up in an argument with an atheist they will often say," There can’t be a God because there is so much evil in the universe!" They often miss that if they are admitting something to be evil, then they are admitting an ultimate standard of good to compare it to. And then they will say quickly that there is no moral standard. Well, then their argument has quickly fallen apart now hasn’t it? For now his “evil” is simply a personal feeling of his own and carries no authority for anyone but him, in which case he should just keep that opinion to himself because they have no sway over what is truly “evil” or “good” because they have now become just words.
If atheism is true, we should not trust anything that we learn by reason. That includes the conclusion that Atheism is true. For something to be capable of truth or falsehood, it must come from a rational source. No merely physical material constitutes a rational source; one could hardly imagine a pile of ash doing algebra. And if our thoughts are simply random motions of atoms in my brain, then I have no reason to trust them.
A rational being requires a rational process to assess the truth or falsehood of a claim. If humans are able to be convinced by an argument, their reasoning must have a rational source. If humans are able to be convinced by argument their reasoning must have a non-physical source. Since rationality cannot arise out of irrationality, which is to say there is no arrangement of non-rational materials that creates a rational thing.
Man cannot be the cause because no being that begins to exist can be rational except through reliance and ultimately on a rational being that did not begin to exist. That means that rationality did not arise spontaneously from out of nothing but only from another rationality. It’s A then B then C that makes something true. Not * blank space * then B then C for if the beginning of your equation is false then it follows that the conclusion will be false as well. We know that all humans began to exist at some point in time. Therefore if humans are able to be convinced by argument, there must be a necessary and rational being on which rationality ultimately relies and we call that being “God”.

The problem of pain is a very difficult one but much of it is because we live in a fallen world, filled with fallen people. God has given us a free will to choose good or evil and He doesn’t interfere with that choice. It is a very complicated issue and the best book I have ever read to deal with it has been "The Problem of Pain” by C.S. Lewis, I suggest you read that! Also, if you are defending your faith I would also suggest Mere Christianity and Miracles both by C.S. Lewis. I hope I helped at least a little!

 

[StrawberryJam]

There are no butterflies here.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

I would ask this elderly atheist, since he cannot know for a fact that there is no God, what he thinks will become of him if there is a God and he has to stand before God for his final judgment.

 

[rvilbig]

I realize it is a loosing battle, but I would appreciate if anyone could give me sources for good arguments to deal with Atheism perhaps tailored to non-religious Jews as I feel that he has absorbed the fashionable post war ennui that I see many elderly Jews exhibiting.

Perhaps try the challenge to Christianity posed by Gamaliel, the unbelieving Jewish Pharisee remembered in the Acts of the Apostles:

“Fellow Israelites, be careful what you are about to do to these men. Some time ago, Theudas appeared, claiming to be someone important, and about four hundred men joined him, but he was killed, and all those who were loyal to him were disbanded and came to nothing. After him came Judas the Galilean at the time of the census. He also drew people after him, but he too perished and all who were loyal to him were scattered. So now I tell you, have nothing to do with these men, and let them go. For if this endeavor or this activity is of human origin, it will destroy itself. But if it comes from God, you will not be able to destroy them; you may even find yourselves fighting against God.” (Acts 5:35-39)

2000 years later and we’re still going. Christianity is incredibly fit in the meme pool (to use Richard Dawkins’ term); hence, by the Jewish logic of Gamaliel, Christianity is Divinely instituted.

Hope this helps,

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com

 

[Charlemagne_II]

StrawberryJam

*It’s a somewhat paradoxical observation that in order to maintain a belief in something to a certainty, the believer needs constant or at least periodical reinforcement of that belief. *

It’s hardly paradoxical, no more so than that for the mind to continue in the certainty of belief that life is worth living, nothing more is needed than the occasional reinforcement of pizza and a beer.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

There is a book called the “The Answer to Moscow’s Bible” (it might now be marketed under a slightly different name), written by Richard Wurmbrand. He was a Romanian Jew who became Christian and who suffered under both Nazi and Communist rule, but particularly the Communists. He died some years ago.

At one stage he was an atheist.

Hence he fills all the criteria your friend comments on, at some time or another - Jewish, atheist, religious and suffering.

In the book there is quite a striking passage about the influence the Jews have had on world history. For a small number of people they’ve had an enormous influence - I think something like 60% of Nobel Prize winners have been Jewish for example. The two linch pins of theoretical physics were both Jewish - Newton and Einstein. At the time he wrote, much of the world lay under the influence of the Jew, Karl Marx. Christ, another Jew, influenced much of the rest of the world. Muhammed was influenced by Judaism.

If you can get hold of a copy, get him to read it and give you his feedback. But read it first yourself.

 

[AntiTheist]

Well, when the question of evil comes up in an argument with an atheist they will often say," There can’t be a God because there is so much evil in the universe!"

I have always found the “argument from evil” to be an exceptionally poor argument against the existence of gods. A far better argument is to observe that there is no evidence at all for the existence of any gods.

They often miss that if they are admitting something to be evil, then they are admitting an ultimate standard of good to compare it to.

You don’t have to believe in a supernatural source of goodness to label harmful things “bad” or “evil.”

If atheism is true, we should not trust anything that we learn by reason. That includes the conclusion that Atheism is true. For something to be capable of truth or falsehood, it must come from a rational source. No merely physical material constitutes a rational source; one could hardly imagine a pile of ash doing algebra.

“Merely” physical matter in the correct combinations can produce what are known as emergent properties (such as consciousness and thought).

The physical matter that comprises our brains – matter that operates entirely in line with the laws of physics – produces a processing machine that enables us to determine whether or not statements are likely to match reality.

 

[rvilbig]

There is a book called the “The Answer to Moscow’s Bible” (it might now be marketed under a slightly different name), written by Richard Wurmbrand. He was a Romanian Jew who became Christian and who suffered under both Nazi and Communist rule, but particularly the Communists. He died some years ago.

Another book that may be helpful is Before the Dawn, by Eugenio Zolli, the former chief rabbi of Rome who converted to Catholicism and took the baptismal name of Venerable Pius XII, which was *Eugenio *Pacelli, upon his conversion. This may provide some interesting insights into the path from Judaism to Catholicism, though I haven’t had the chance to read it yet myself.

I really, however, would try the Gamaliel approach: “For if this endeavor or this activity is of human origin *, it will destroy itself. But if it comes from God, you will not be able to destroy them; you may even find yourselves fighting against God.” (Acts 5:38-39). Christianity is a very fit meme, even according to atheists, so by Jewish logic, Christianity comes from God.

Hopefully this will be helpful,

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com*

 

[rvilbig]

The physical matter that comprises our brains – matter that operates entirely in line with the laws of physics – produces a processing machine that enables us to determine whether or not statements are likely to match reality.

Minds are not machines, and matter is not deterministic. Study the Godelian argument and quantum mechanics, and let me know if you have any questions.

God is merciful, so be not afraid. It is possible to convert from atheism to Catholicism with the help of His grace.

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com

 

[tonyrey]

I have always found the “argument from evil” to be an exceptionally poor argument against the existence of gods. A far better argument is to observe that there is no evidence at all for the existence of any gods.

In that case there is no evidence at all for the existence of any persons! What is the evidence that **you **exist?

You don’t have to believe in a supernatural source of goodness to label harmful things “bad” or “evil.”

How do you determine what is harmful? By accident?

“Merely” physical matter in the correct combinations can produce what are known as emergent properties (such as consciousness and thought).

That is a stupendous act of faith in the power of matter to produce thought from that which is thoughtless! Why not simply reject thought as an illusion?

The physical matter that comprises our brains – matter that operates entirely in line with the laws of physics – produces a processing machine that enables us to determine whether or not statements are likely to match reality.

The processing machine which has produced the statement that matter that operates entirely in line with the laws of physics is defective because it has no **insight **into reality…

Now I understand why you can’t prove** you** exist. You have reduced yourself to a mechanical processing machine!

BTW Nothing is harmful in a world of mechanical processing machines…

 

[Mojoforyeshua]

How do you determine what is harmful? By accident?

He is also assuming, somehow, that something harmful is evil. Or that is better to not be harmed than it is to be harmed. Or that surviving is better than not surviving. Really if there is no absolute “something” then nothing can really be trusted.

 

[Mojoforyeshua]

Minds are not machines, and matter is not deterministic. Study the Godelian argument and quantum mechanics, and let me know if you have any questions.

God is merciful, so be not afraid. It is possible to convert from atheism to Catholicism with the help of His grace.

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com

Do you recommend any books on that subject? Seems interesting and I have always wanted to study quantum mechanics (for a layperson).

 

[AntiTheist]

Study Godelian argument and quantum mechanics

I have- they don’t demonstrate the things that you seem to think that they do. This is almost as bad as the new agers who think that they can wish things into existence because of quantum mechanics. Sorry, “The Secret” isn’t made any more plausible by QM, nor is the existence of other kinds of magic, such as consciousness existing all by itself.

It is possible to convert from atheism to Catholicism with the help of His grace.

Thanks, but no.

tonyrey:

In that case there is no evidence at all for the existence of any persons! What is the evidence that you exist?

I manifest in detectable and measurable ways, for starters.

 

[tonyrey]

He is also assuming, somehow, that something harmful is evil. Or that is better to not be harmed than it is to be harmed. Or that surviving is better than not surviving. Really if there is no absolute “something” then nothing can really be trusted.

Irrefutable points!

 

[Major_Minor]

And that atheism is a recent phenomena

Actually that’s not true. It’s always been around. It’s a recently -fashionable- phenomena, THAT is true. But there have always been people who do not believe.

 

[JohnDamian]

Actually that’s not true. It’s always been around. It’s a recently -fashionable- phenomena, THAT is true. But there have always been people who do not believe.

Just to give a few examples;

Democritus
Bar-Yeshua
Euhemerus
Epicurus
Strato of Lampsacus
Cārvāka