Dealing with anti-Catholic stuff.

[Bestil_Andno]

FOUR (LAST)

To me Christianity is simple and pure.

How do we know that Christianity is simple and pure?

We tend to make it too complicated. Have you ever tried reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
It can’t be that complicated!

Well, it might be that complicated or it might not be. I don’t think we can say “because it is more complicated than we think it should be…it isn’t true.” How do we know that?

There is no right and no wrong because it’s difficult to find everything in one church because man is flawed and makes mistakes in every endeavor.

It is difficult to find everything in one church…does that mean it is impossible to?

Sure man is flawed but let’s think about this for a second: Men wrote the words of the Bible. But God protected them from writing anything He didn’t want them to. So the Bible isn’t flawed even though men wrote it. After all, it is His Book.

Men lead the Church Jesus founded (because He set it up that way). Cannot God protect them from teaching anything that He doesn’t want them to? After all, it is His Church, right?

I would say man makes mistakes in every endeavor UNLESS God protects them from making those mistakes.

Whatever else is added to the above (except baptism and communion) is man-made and additional and discernment can be used to accept or deny. Except that if you join a church you should agree with its doctrine. Right?

I disagree. I think your list is good…and incomplete. And I’m not wanting to argue. But I don’t think that it is correct to say what I bolded above. How do we know that “anything else is man-made”.

How about just two things that look like they should be added to your list that aren’t man-made:

1. Forgiveness. Do we have to forgive other people to be saved? Well, we need to have our sins forgiven, I think we would agree on that. But we do not get to have our sins forgiven if we do not forgive other people :

“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:14-15).

1. Love. I don’t think anything in your list mentioned love. But I think Jesus and Paul both said to love God and our neighbor and without it we are nothing but a clanging gong or something. (1 Cor. 13)

So if you were the pastor of the church I was attending right now. Would I have to leave and join another church because there seems to be some things missing from your list?

Maybe Christianity is complicated…maybe it isn’t. I don’t know. But I think we should be careful about oversimplifying things. We could accidentally leave things out.

And, yes, absolutely in how we should live.
What do you think Mathew chapters 5, 6, 7 and beyond are all about?

I’m glad you added this in here. It addresses what we already talked about above. Don’t you think this some of this should be added to the list?

I’m starting to feel you’ve been pulling my leg all along!
But no matter. All I’ve said stands.

Not at all!! I have no intention of that! Seriously. I inquired about your statement about there being “no right or wrong”. I was sincere. I have less biblical knowledge than most people and I do enjoy discussions with others because I learn alot. I am new to forums, though. I usually just try to talk to people at work.

I’m not speaking about Christian Relativism. I’ve said that there are standards to follow.

Where can we find these standards and are they the same for all Christians?

If a church teaches that abortion is okay - you know it’s wrong.
If a church teaches that homosexuality is okay - you know it’s wrong.
If a church teaches that it’s okay to get drunk - you know it’s wrong.
But does the bible teach it is a SIN to drink alcohol?? No.

So there is right and wrong after all. I mean, churches that claim to believe in Jesus and use the Bible…but teach any of the above can be eliminated from the list of being His church, right? Then we are closer to finding the one church that He founded…aren’t we?

His church can’t teach error or He would be leading His people astray…right? Or am I off on something?

You’re a smart fellow Bestil and have made me spend quite some time here, which I see has been unnecessary. But it’s good practice anyway. It could always help someone else reading along.

I’m really not. I am curious about alot of things and, as I said before, I do wish to know if Christ’s church is really here still or does it matter which church a person belongs to, etc. Those are interesting (and important, I think) questions for me.

It’s kindof too bad we couldn’t talk in person. Since we both agree it is not a sin to drink…we could even have a beverage. Bible and a beverage.

Thanks for the chat, GG.

God bless.

 

[Church_Militant]

Your presupposition that there is no truth outside the bible is erroneous.

Sola Scriptura, itself is not scriptural and was foreign to the early Church.

I understand it’s your ‘safeguard’, but it is also a assumption.

The fact that SS is not found in scripture means that even by its own errant standards it cannot be a correct Christian doctrine because it violates its own doctrinal premise that doctrine and beliefs must be found in scripture.

Again, I suggest It’s NOT in the Bible, okay? (Part II)

 

[Church_Militant]

If you’re going to cite Justin Martyr then I suggest that it be in context, which can easily be found in my blog article. What Was Authentic Early Christian Worship Really Like?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

The fact that SS is not found in scripture means that even by its own errant standards it cannot be a correct Christian doctrine because it violates its own doctrinal premise that doctrine and beliefs must be found in scripture.

Again, I suggest It’s NOT in the Bible, okay? (Part II)

**CM, The problems with SS therein should be very obvious but are not for some reason.

Take just one sentence and see how many directions it can be taken:**

I NEVER SAID YOU STOLE MONEY

If I asked the typical SS practicer if they know the meaning of that they would say absolutely.

But here is what that one sentence COULD mean:

I never said you stole money- ***I ***didn’t say it but somebody else did!

I never said you stole money - I didn’t actually say you stole money, but I thought you did.

I never said you stole money- I thought you stole something else, but not money.

I never said you ***stole ***money. I thought that you probably buried it burned it, but I didn’t say you stole it

**Now we can see how problematic it can be with just one sentence. With the bible we are talking a collection of books written thousands of years ago, by different authors from different cultures in different languages with idioms that are not necessarily practiced today.

I would highly encourage critics of the Church to proceed with caution. Because I do not think things are nearly as clear as SS practicers seem to think they are. If it were, there wouldn’t be 30,000 denominations right now.**

 

[JoyToTheWhirled]

I will not respond to “we” and “you”.
I’m glad you believe you have the truth.
There is only ONE truth.
His name is JESUS.

GG

Can I just ask, GG, as this your most sure claim, how do you know?

 

[Church_Militant]

Can I just ask, GG, as this your most sure claim, how do you know?

Yeah, I’d like to see an in depth answer to that as well…

 

[GodsGrace154]

How do we know that Christianity is simple and pure?

Well, it might be that complicated or it might not be. I don’t think we can say “because it is more complicated than we think it should be…it isn’t true.” How do we know that?

It is difficult to find everything in one church…does that mean it is impossible to?

Sure man is flawed but let’s think about this for a second: Men wrote the words of the Bible. But God protected them from writing anything He didn’t want them to. So the Bible isn’t flawed even though men wrote it. After all, it is His Book.

Men lead the Church Jesus founded (because He set it up that way). Cannot God protect them from teaching anything that He doesn’t want them to? After all, it is His Church, right?

I would say man makes mistakes in every endeavor UNLESS God protects them from making those mistakes.

I disagree. I think your list is good…and incomplete. And I’m not wanting to argue. But I don’t think that it is correct to say what I bolded above. How do we know that “anything else is man-made”.

How about just two things that look like they should be added to your list that aren’t man-made:

1. Forgiveness. Do we have to forgive other people to be saved? Well, we need to have our sins forgiven, I think we would agree on that. But we do not get to have our sins forgiven if we do not forgive other people :

“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:14-15).

1. Love. I don’t think anything in your list mentioned love. But I think Jesus and Paul both said to love God and our neighbor and without it we are nothing but a clanging gong or something. (1 Cor. 13)

So if you were the pastor of the church I was attending right now. Would I have to leave and join another church because there seems to be some things missing from your list?

Maybe Christianity is complicated…maybe it isn’t. I don’t know. But I think we should be careful about oversimplifying things. We could accidentally leave things out.

I’m glad you added this in here. It addresses what we already talked about above. Don’t you think this some of this should be added to the list?

Not at all!! I have no intention of that! Seriously. I inquired about your statement about there being “no right or wrong”. I was sincere. I have less biblical knowledge than most people and I do enjoy discussions with others because I learn alot. I am new to forums, though. I usually just try to talk to people at work.

Where can we find these standards and are they the same for all Christians?

 

[guanophore]

Let me apologize in advance if I misattributed the posts. I could not tell the source.

Well, it might be that complicated or it might not be. I don’t think we can say “because it is more complicated than we think it should be…it isn’t true.” How do we know that?

I think both things are true. There is a clean simplicity in the Gospel, such that a toddler can wade, and there is a depth to it so that a whale can swim in the deep of it. People can actually stay as shallow or go as deep as they want, or in some cases, as needed. Some of us cannot be satisfied with simplicity, and need to plumb the depths.

It is difficult to find everything in one church…does that mean it is impossible to?

Well, clearly Catholics will say it is not impossible, since we believe the CC is the fullness of faith.

Sure man is flawed but let’s think about this for a second: Men wrote the words of the Bible. But God protected them from writing anything He didn’t want them to. So the Bible isn’t flawed even though men wrote it. After all, it is His Book.

This is what the CC calls the gift of infallibility.

Men lead the Church Jesus founded (because He set it up that way). Cannot God protect them from teaching anything that He doesn't want them to? After all, it is His Church, right?

He can, but just like the writers of Scripture, those people have to cooperate. He does not compel them to obey, so they can err.

I would say man makes mistakes in every endeavor UNLESS God protects them from making those mistakes.

I think that humans can protect themselves from making mistakes too, but I do agree, God preserves us from a great deal when we cleave to HIm in faith.

I’ll be leaving this thread now. I think I’ve outstayed my welcome here.

Bummer! :crying:

We all belong where we are.
God has put us where we are.

GG

I agree, but that does not necessarily mean we are always to remain where we are now.

 

[GodsGrace154]

Yeah, I’d like to see an in depth answer to that as well…

Here’s your in depth answer Church Militant:

John 18:37
Jesus is standing before Pilot. Pilot asks Jesus if He is a king and Jesus replies:
“…Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice.”

John 18:38
Pilot replies: “What is truth.”

No answer.

Pilot was staring truth in the face.

You should be less of a militant
And more of a friend.

GG

 

[guanophore]

Here’s your in depth answer Church Militant:

John 18:37
Jesus is standing before Pilot. Pilot asks Jesus if He is a king and Jesus replies:
“…Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice.”

John 18:38
Pilot replies: “What is truth.”

No answer.

Pilot was staring truth in the face.

You should be less of a militant
And more of a friend.

GG

I think the question was about how you came to know that these events occurred.

The Church Militant is what we call the part of the Church that remains on earth working out salvation. Those who are getting the mud taken off are referred to as the Church suffering, and those who have received their heavenly reward are referred to the Church Triumphant.

Our CAF Church Militant is not an unfriendly guy.

 

[GodsGrace154]

I think the question was about how you came to know that these events occurred.

The Church Militant is what we call the part of the Church that remains on earth working out salvation. Those who are getting the mud taken off are referred to as the Church suffering, and those who have received their heavenly reward are referred to the Church Triumphant.

Our CAF Church Militant is not an unfriendly guy.

Regarding C.M. : What is on the inside should show on the outside.

Also, my reply is not regarding what you think.

It’s about this original post of mine to Church Militant:

Originally Posted by GodsGrace154 View Post
I will not respond to “we” and “you”.
I’m glad you believe you have the truth.
There is only ONE truth.
His name is JESUS.

GG

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

To which I received this reply from JoyToTheWhirled::

Originally Posted by JoyToTheWhirled View Post

Can I just ask, GG, as this your most sure claim, how do you know?

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

And to which Church Militant also replied:

Yeah, I’d like to see an in depth answer to that as well…

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

So my post was about Jesus being the truth and Church Militant wanted an IN DEPTH explanation of that.

Do YOU think saying Jesus is the truth requires an in depth explanation?
I thought it was common knowledge…

GG

 

[Wesrock]

Do YOU think saying Jesus is the truth requires an in depth explanation?
I thought it was common knowledge…

GG

What does “Jesus is the truth” mean to you?

 

[GodsGrace154]

What does “Jesus is the truth” mean to you?

I said I was going to leave - but I guess I lied !

It means to me the same thing it means to you Wesrock.
What else could it mean??

You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.
John 8:32

If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.
John 8:36

Jesus was speaking to the Jews who had come to believe in Him. He was telling them that if they abided in His word they would be true disciples of His.
They said they were Abraham’s sons and were never enslaved to anyone, so why was Jesus telling them they’d be “free”?

Jesus replied that anyone who commits sin is the SLAVE OF SIN.

Jesus is the truth means that Jesus came to this world to let us know true things. One of them is that we are slaves to sin and that we need to be freed from this condition. True freedom comes only from serving God. Satan seems good and fun, but he keeps people enslaved - they do NOT know the truth. They follow him blindly. We are living in the domain of the evil one, the prince of the air. We fight not with flesh and blood but with principalities. This is the truth. How many persons do we know that even think of this? Here by me, not too many - very few in fact.

Another way that Jesus is the truth is how He teaches us to live. How to remove stress from our lives, how to get along better with people.

This will be found in Mathew 5, 6, 7 and beyond. The Beatitudes.

This is what it means to me to say that Jesus is the truth.
If you could add something, it would be nice. I can’t think of anything else.

GG

 

[guanophore]

Regarding C.M. :  What is on the inside should show on the outside.nnAlso, my reply is not regarding what you think.

It’s about this original post of mine to Church Militant:

Originally Posted by GodsGrace154 View Post
I will not respond to “we” and “you”.
I’m glad you believe you have the truth.
There is only ONE truth.
His name is JESUS.

GG

Oh, yes, I did read that but I did not put the two together. I wasnt’ sure who you were directing that toward at the time.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

To which I received this reply from JoyToTheWhirled::

Originally Posted by JoyToTheWhirled View Post

Can I just ask, GG, as this your most sure claim, how do you know?

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

And to which Church Militant also replied:

Yeah, I’d like to see an in depth answer to that as well…

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

So my post was about Jesus being the truth and Church Militant wanted an IN DEPTH explanation of that.

Do YOU think saying Jesus is the truth requires an in depth explanation?
I thought it was common knowledge…

GG

I thought the question was HOW you knew this. Without Scripture, I don’t see how any of us could have this information.

 

[guanophore]

I said I was going to leave - but I guess I lied !

Naw. A lie is a deliberate attempt to deceive someone. I am sure you meant it when you said it!

Jesus is the truth means that Jesus came to this world to let us know true things. One of them is that we are slaves to sin and that we need to be freed from this condition. True freedom comes only from serving God. Satan seems good and fun, but he keeps people enslaved - they do NOT know the truth. They follow him blindly. We are living in the domain of the evil one, the prince of the air. We fight not with flesh and blood but with principalities. This is the truth. How many persons do we know that even think of this? Here by me, not too many - very few in fact.

Another way that Jesus is the truth is how He teaches us to live. How to remove stress from our lives, how to get along better with people.

This will be found in Mathew 5, 6, 7 and beyond. The Beatitudes.

This is what it means to me to say that Jesus is the truth.
If you could add something, it would be nice. I can’t think of anything else.

GG

It all sounds so very Catholic!

 

[GodsGrace154]

Oh, yes, I did read that but I did not put the two together. I wasnt’ sure who you were directing that toward at the time.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

I thought the question was HOW you knew this. Without Scripture, I don’t see how any of us could have this information.

Oh. I see. Thanks Guanophore.

How do I know Jesus is the truth without scripture?

Easy. When I became born again at the age of about 28, I had NEVER READ THE BIBLE. I knew no scripture.

But God spoke to me through Jesus. He told me the TRUTH about something and it worked and it was the truth.

So I knew Jesus was the truth, even though I had never read the bible.

However, the bible can confirm what we know instinctively.
Romans 1:20

GG

 

[Church_Militant]

Here’s your in depth answer Church Militant:

John 18:37
Jesus is standing before Pilot. Pilot asks Jesus if He is a king and Jesus replies:
"…Everyone who is of the truth

hears my voice."

John 18:38
Pilot replies: “What is truth.”

No answer.

Pilot was staring truth in the face.Unfortunately that isn’t exactly the case with believers now is it? The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, but nowhere is it promised to be a one time epiphany and nowhere is it stated in scripture that scripture alone would be that source. The Catholic Church does not teach that and the early church did not believe or teach it.

No faithful Catholic would have a problem with the passage you cite, but it does not attend or apply to us today and trying to make it do so is ripping it out of its context…which easily leads to misinterpretation and misapplication.

You should be less of a militant
And more of a friend.

GG

Man I get that from you n-Cs so often that it makes me laugh now. You do not even know what my username means and I cannot really blame you since you are not Catholic. (Heck there are probably Catholics reading this post that do not know.) However that lack of information is easily remedied here.

The short answer is contained in the following quote.

As signifying the Church, the word Ecclesia

is used by Christian writers, sometimes in a wider, sometimes in a more restricted sense…

It may signify the whole body of the faithful, including not merely the members of the Church who are alive on earth but those, too, whether in heaven or in purgatory, who form part of the one communion of saints. Considered thus, the Church is divided into the Church Militant, the Church Suffering, and the Church Triumphant. I’m not the one who seems to be angry and hostile GG. Just because I disagree with some of your beliefs and challenge your thinking and interpretations does not make me the bad guy, though you seem to think so.

Again, I have to ask you, in the words of St. Paul…"Am I then become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Unfortunately that isn’t exactly the case with believers now is it? The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, but nowhere is it promised to be a one time epiphany and nowhere is it stated in scripture that scripture alone would be that source. The Catholic Church does not teach that and the early church did not believe or teach it.

No faithful Catholic would have a problem with the passage you cite, but it does not attend or apply to us today and trying to make it do so is ripping it out of its context…which easily leads to misinterpretation and misapplication.
Man I get that from you n-Cs so often that it makes me laugh now. You do not even know what my username means and I cannot really blame you since you are not Catholic. (Heck there are probably Catholics reading this post that do not know.) However that lack of information is easily remedied here.

The short answer is contained in the following quote. I’m not the one who seem to be angry and hostile GG. Just because I disagree with some of your beliefs and challenge your thinking and interpretations does not make me the bad guy, though you seem to think so.

Again, I have to ask you, in the words of St. Paul…"Am I then become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"

I think GG said she was a former Catholic.

If she was properly catechized she should be aware of what Church militant means for us. It’s not nearly as scary as it sounds.

If the devil is a roaring lion seeking whom he can destroy, and he is, then we need a Church militant here on earth. We don’t need wimpy pew sitters.

Anyway, thanks for your posts, I find you to be a pleasant individual speaking Truth. Keep up the good work.

 

[Church_Militant]

I think GG said she was a former Catholic.

Ah…I was not aware. How sad, but hey…I was too at one time.

If she was properly catechized she should be aware of what Church militant means for us. It’s not nearly as scary as it sounds.

Very true. It simply means one who is a member of the church here on the earth and is running their race.

If the devil is a roaring lion seeking whom he can destroy, and he is, then we need a Church militant here on earth. We don’t need wimpy pew sitters.

As my Jewish buddies have often said, “From your lips to God’s ear.”

Anyway, thanks for your posts, I find you to be a pleasant individual speaking Truth. Keep up the good work.

Thanks, but I am an unworthy servant. I have only done what is expected of me. (Luke 17:10)

 

[adamhovey1988]

I am not feeling well and about to go to bed soon. Could someone summarise the conversation for me? From what I’ve read, it seems to be a bit of verse slinging. (I could be wrong). God bless y’all. Good night.