Dealing with anti-Catholic stuff.

[GodsGrace154]

Some here on CAF call themselves Anglo-Catholics.

There has been an influx of modernism, primarily in the Episcopal communities resulting in extreme departures from Traditional Anglican Faith such as gay marriage and the ordination of women.

I think the other factor is one you have already pointed out, which is the very different tone of papal messages and attitudes in the last century. Pope Frances has not said anything different than what the Church has always believed and taught, but he emphasizes a different part of the message, which makes reunification much easier for many.

HIgh Church Anglicans are virtually indistinguishable from Roman Catholics. I have known people who went to an Anglican Mass and did not realize it was not Catholic until a prayer for the Pope was not included. This means there is very little lacking in reunification.

Hi G

I don’t know too much about Anglicans. What keeps them from joining the Catholic church? Pride? (at the root of all sin).

Do you know the difference in doctrine?

GG
P.S. I know someone who’s an Orthocostal!

 

[sudy]

In a way it’s like that with Catholic churches too. Some are very baroque, or very elegant, and some are just simple modern churches.

Thanks for the info! I always wondered about this.

GG
P.S. Some are against the beautiful churches that were built, I think they’re a testimony to the glory of God and express our devotion.

I believe she is referring to the type of worship. Within high church, some practices are very similar to those within the Catholic Church. Low church are further removed from Catholic elements in worship, with less focus on sacraments, priesthood etc.

 

[GodsGrace154]

I believe she is referring to the type of worship rather than the style of architecture. Within high church, some practices are very similar to those within the Catholic Church. Low church are further removed from Catholic elements in worship, with less focus on sacraments, priesthood etc.

Yes. I’m a bit confused. Still.

I think it doesn’t really matter. One day I’ll sit here and ask Prof. Google!

GG

 

[sudy]

Think of it along the lines of Lutheran compared to Baptist… with the reformation, some rejected more aspects than others.

Edit: I’m not attacking Baptists Low Church isn’t meant as a slight… it’s about the type of worship, rather than sophistication.

 

[Youit]

In a way it’s like that with Catholic churches too. Some are very baroque, or very elegant, and some are just simple modern churches.

Thanks for the info! I always wondered about this.

GG
P.S. Some are against the beautiful churches that were built, I think they’re a testimony to the glory of God and express our devotion.

When speaking about “high” or “low” church, we are talking about the service, not the actual building itself. My girlfriend is a UMC, which is an offshoot of Anglicans. I’ve been to a few services with her and her family. “High” church or what they call “traditional” service, more resembles a Catholic mass but stripped down. “Low” service, the same as “contemporary” service is basically a concert to me. People bring in coffee, they sit and listen to a band for about 15 minutes then a pastor preaches for about 30 minutes then you’re finished. At least this is how I understand it.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

In a way it’s like that with Catholic churches too. Some are very baroque, or very elegant, and some are just simple modern churches.

Thanks for the info! I always wondered about this.

GG
P.S. Some are against the beautiful churches that were built, I think they’re a testimony to the glory of God and express our devotion.

I’ve been told that when you see a statue or painting, any kind of icon in a Catholic church, it was a devout Catholic who composed it. And there was fasting and prayer involved before hand. They even use Holy Water in the oils when painting.

They really try to connect with the divine in the process.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi G

I don’t know too much about Anglicans. What keeps them from joining the Catholic church? Pride? (at the root of all sin).

Do you know the difference in doctrine?

GG
P.S. I know someone who’s an Orthocostal!

The Catholic Church understands the frustrations of disenfranchised Anglicans so she has made a Anglican rite in order to make the process simpler. They pretty much keep their liturgy and I think their prayer book, with some tweaks to it.

Because of the similarities it’s much easier for a Anglican priest to convert than say, a Baptist minister. Also, the RCIA process is cut in half for parishoners.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

When speaking about “high” or “low” church, we are talking about the service, not the actual building itself. My girlfriend is a UMC, which is an offshoot of Anglicans. I’ve been to a few services with her and her family. “High” church or what they call “traditional” service, more resembles a Catholic mass but stripped down. “Low” service, the same as “contemporary” service is basically a concert to me. People bring in coffee, they sit and listen to a band for about 15 minutes then a pastor preaches for about 30 minutes then you’re finished. At least this is how I understand it.

Yes, I was non denominational for quite some time.

No images anywhere, it’s like being in a auditorium or something.

You come in and sing for maybe 15 minutes.

Then a 35 minute sermon.

Then a altar call

Now raise your hand for the blessing.

Hardly ever see communion.

 

[CrucisLucia]

In a way it’s like that with Catholic churches too. Some are very baroque, or very elegant, and some are just simple modern churches.

Thanks for the info! I always wondered about this.

GG
P.S. Some are against the beautiful churches that were built, I think they’re a testimony to the glory of God and express our devotion.

Well, modern and futuristic Catholic architecture is also very interesting and nice to look at. Take a look for example St. Mary’s Cathedral in Tokyo, and the Cathedral of Christ the Light in Oakland, California.

I have seen Protestant criticism of cathedral architecture, it is very refreshing to see an alternative view on such.

 

[GodsGrace154]

I’ve been told that when you see a statue or painting, any kind of icon in a Catholic church, it was a devout Catholic who composed it. And there was fasting and prayer involved before hand. They even use Holy Water in the oils when painting.

They really try to connect with the divine in the process.

I didn’t know about the holy water and the fasting.
I do know that the rest of what you say is true.

The people in the dark ages didn’t know how to read or write. So paintings, the stations of the Cross, the rosary, the glass windows in a church, EVERYTHING, was used to tell the biblical stories. Even into the renaissance. Many times, even today, paintings are used in catechism classes. It makes concepts come alive.

GG

 

[CrucisLucia]

I didn’t know about the holy water and the fasting.
I do know that the rest of what you say is true.

The people in the dark ages didn’t know how to read or write. So paintings, the stations of the Cross, the rosary, the glass windows in a church, EVERYTHING, was used to tell the biblical stories. Even into the renaissance. Many times, even today, paintings are used in catechism classes. It makes concepts come alive.

GG

Exactly, most people in the Middle Ages are rural farmer peasants who cannot read or write. This was before the days of public education and the printing press where books can easily be printed and literacy be taught to people. Paintings and illustrations helped greatly the illiterate to understand and know the Gospel to the point that church stained glasses and paintings are called “The Poor Man’s Bible”.

 

[GodsGrace154]

Well, modern and futuristic Catholic architecture is also very interesting and nice to look at. Take a look for example St. Mary’s Cathedral in Tokyo, and the Cathedral of Christ the Light in Oakland, California.

I have seen Protestant criticism of cathedral architecture, it is very refreshing to see an alternative view on such.

If you look at a cathedral from the outside, or go inside, and with an open heart - you see the love that went into the building. Some took hundreds of years to finish.

Will be checking out your two churches on youtube.

My favorite (barogue and Gothic) for the exterior is Milan’s Cathedral.
For the interior it would be St. Anthony in Padova.

What to say about St. Peter’s in Rome? There are no words…
Did you know that all those columns on either side of the big square are supposed to represent open arms welcoming all.

Oh. And let’s not forget that “crazy” church in Barcelona . La Sagrata Familia. Think it’ll ever get finished??!

GG

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I didn’t know about the holy water and the fasting.
I do know that the rest of what you say is true.

The people in the dark ages didn’t know how to read or write. So paintings, the stations of the Cross, the rosary, the glass windows in a church, EVERYTHING, was used to tell the biblical stories. Even into the renaissance. Many times, even today, paintings are used in catechism classes. It makes concepts come alive.

GG

Exactly, it was windows to heaven for the illiterate, basically.

 

[guanophore]

But how does one decide which way to worship?

This is a good question. I think most people decide this based upon their emotional needs, and whether they are getting met in the service.

Jesus said we need to worship “in Spirit and in Truth”. For those cleaving to the Apostolic faiths, that involves what was passed down from the apostles and has traditionally contained liturgy. Liturgy is very organized, prescribed, and follows predictable patterns.

This stands in contrast to those communities that are non-liturgical and more “go with the flow”. Most of these have an “order of service” too but it is generally more flexible and allows ad lib, where liturgical norms do not.

Does it depend on what church one goes to?

I’d rather hear everything from people instead of Prof. Google!

GG

The more that modernism has influenced the congregation, the more formal “trappings” of worship have been jettisoned.

 

[CrucisLucia]

If you look at a cathedral from the outside, or go inside, and with an open heart - you see the love that went into the building. Some took hundreds of years to finish.

Will be checking out your two churches on youtube.

My favorite (barogue and Gothic) for the exterior is Milan’s Cathedral.
For the interior it would be St. Anthony in Padova.

What to say about St. Peter’s in Rome? There are no words…
Did you know that all those columns on either side of the big square are supposed to represent open arms welcoming all.

Oh. And let’s not forget that “crazy” church in Barcelona . La Sagrata Familia. Think it’ll ever get finished??!

GG

Yes, cathedrals in the Middle Ages when they are first built are considered as glimpses or windows to Heaven. In fact, modern historical research shows that Gothic cathedrals are actually painted with bright and rich colors unlike the macabre gray colors we see today. They are made to evoke to the faithful an awesome glimpse of ethereal heaven of the Holy Father.

Well, let’s discuss Catholic church architecture ~

I actually have a personal bias towards Gothic cathedrals. Personally to me they evoke to me a sense of faith, awe and wonder and their enigma and feel convey perfectly the mystery of the Catholic liturgy and faith.

 

[GodsGrace154]

This is a good question. I think most people decide this based upon their emotional needs, and whether they are getting met in the service.

Jesus said we need to worship “in Spirit and in Truth”. For those cleaving to the Apostolic faiths, that involves what was passed down from the apostles and has traditionally contained liturgy. Liturgy is very organized, prescribed, and follows predictable patterns.

This stands in contrast to those communities that are non-liturgical and more “go with the flow”. Most of these have an “order of service” too but it is generally more flexible and allows ad lib, where liturgical norms do not.

The more that modernism has influenced the congregation, the more formal “trappings” of worship have been jettisoned.

Right. From the beginning there was a pattern.

Here’s what Justin Martyr said (100 AD-165 AD) (my wording)

1. On the day called Sunday, all are to gather in one place.
2. Memoirs of writings of the Apostles were read.
3. Exhortation to imitate these good things. (sermon?)
4. Rise and pray together.
5. Bread and wine are brought out. Prayers and Thanksgiving.
6. People say AMEN.
7. Eucharist is shared.
8. Deacons bring the eucharist to those that could not attend.

I was at a particular service about two months ago (won’t say which church so as not to offend) but there was much confusion and it didn’t seem to bring glory to God.

GG

 

[Lenten_ashes]

This is a good question. I think most people decide this based upon their emotional needs, and whether they are getting met in the service.

Jesus said we need to worship “in Spirit and in Truth”. For those cleaving to the Apostolic faiths, that involves what was passed down from the apostles and has traditionally contained liturgy. Liturgy is very organized, prescribed, and follows predictable patterns.

This stands in contrast to those communities that are non-liturgical and more “go with the flow”. Most of these have an “order of service” too but it is generally more flexible and allows ad lib, where liturgical norms do not.

The more that modernism has influenced the congregation, the more formal “trappings” of worship have been jettisoned.

I think we are creatures of habit. So whatever way we worship high/low church, it should be the same every week.

I have inadvertently sat in some older woman’s regular seat in a previous church. Man she was mean-mugging me the whole service I thought she was going to wack me over the head with that big purse of hers, lol

Low church service was always hit or miss for me. Sometimes I left really edified loving the message. Other times, the pastor started complaining about tithing and trying to place guilt trips and i really felt like, you know what, this is not the place for this, imo.

 

[GodsGrace154]

Yes, cathedrals in the Middle Ages when they are first built are considered as glimpses or windows to Heaven. In fact, modern historical research shows that Gothic cathedrals are actually painted with bright and rich colors unlike the macabre gray colors we see today. They are made to evoke to the faithful an awesome glimpse of ethereal heaven of the Holy Father.

Well, let’s discuss Catholic church architecture ~

I actually have a personal bias towards Gothic cathedrals. Personally to me they evoke to me a sense of faith, awe and wonder and their enigma and feel convey perfectly the mystery of the Catholic liturgy and faith.

I agree. I also like Baroque a lot. The detail is breathtaking.
I don’t care for Romanesque. Too severe - don’t know the word. You must know what I mean.

Also, I find that some churches that are breathtaking on the exterior are very plain on the interior. I don’t know the reason for this. Two examples are the Milan Duomo and the Florence Duomo.

I’ve also seen very small churches from about the 1,100’s and earlier that have very tiny and long windows so animals could not get in.

And as far as color for stained glass: St. Chapelle, Paris. Wow.
My favorite all-time? Le Sacre Cuoer, Paris.

This is not anti-Catholic - it’s pro-catholic!

GG

 

[GodsGrace154]

Well, modern and futuristic Catholic architecture is also very interesting and nice to look at. Take a look for example St. Mary’s Cathedral in Tokyo, and the Cathedral of Christ the Light in Oakland, California.

I have seen Protestant criticism of cathedral architecture, it is very refreshing to see an alternative view on such.

Wow. Thanks for posting.

The one is Oakland is awsome!

The one in Tokyo has a grotto that was reminding me of Lourdes and then it pans up to show the same statue of Mary!

Both beautiful. I would have missed this had it not been for this forum and you.

GG

 

[Church_Militant]

In a way it’s like that with Catholic churches too. Some are very baroque, or very elegant, and some are just simple modern churches.

Thanks for the info! I always wondered about this.

GG
P.S. Some are against the beautiful churches that were built,** I think they’re a testimony to the glory of God and express our devotion**

. Wow…we do agree on something.

Yes. I’m a bit confused. Still.

I think it doesn’t really matter. One day I’ll sit here and ask Prof. Google!

GG:shrug: I ain’t impressed with Google/Intarwebz sometimes. I often think of it like Daniel 12:[4] But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

Think of it along the lines of Lutheran compared to Baptist… with the reformation, some rejected more aspects than others.

Edit: I’m not attacking Baptists Low Church isn’t meant as a slight… it’s about the type of worship, rather than sophistication.

Yep.