Dealing with Atheists?

[wcknight]

I pray for them, since many are my friends and relatives. IF they ask or want to debate, I tell them what I think or believe. I try never to argue or get into heated debates. Those usually serve no purpose.

IF it gets deadlocked I just say, I believe differently. We just have to agree to disagree. Otherwise I try to get them to at least think about whether God exists, and IF they look for God, they will definitely find Him.

Given the chance, I would challenge them to at least ask God for some sign or proof that He can show them that He does exist. I don’t have the power to make them believe. God does. And IF God wants to grant them the grace of faith, then God will be there for them.

I can tell them stories of what I experienced or what I’ve heard about the saints, BUT if they are not open to the truth, then I can’t force anything on them. It’s like a jury, if they have some preconceived notion of guilt or innocence, it’s very difficult to change their minds.

I can come up with personal miracles or miracles that others have experienced, but IF someone is closed to the possibilities then it is useless heresay to them. In these cases God has to touch them personally.

 

[j1akey]

Being an atheist I find it somewhat ironic that catholics or people of faith have the same arguments and put downs against atheist as atheist do about you regarding the whole "you’re pushing your faith on me, you’re unreasonable, as long as they don’t push their beliefs on me then I have no problem with “them” thing.

People on both sides if the street say the exact same things about each other and one group isn’t any better than the other in this regard.

I’m not actually here to debate anything about whether god exists or not but rather I’d like to explain my personal perspectives. I’m not trying to justify myself here because I don’t need to, I actually stumbled into these forums from another forum I was reading regarding atheism and came across this post.

As a kid I wasn’t necessarily raised with religion but I went to church sometimes because my parents wanted to show me religion and leave it up to me what I did with it. I had a big brother from the big brothers/big sisters program because my parents were divorced. He is a deeply religious man and without him I might not have turned out like I did. There was alot of religion in my life growing up but through it all I didn’t actually believe a word of it. Even as a child I always felt like I was just going through the motions whenever I went to church or was people that prayed at the dinner table or started talking about god in general. Even though it was never pushed on me had felt like I was just going along with it so people would accept me. Once I got older however I grew out of that and became my own person and made up my own mind about what I would and would not believe.

For several years when I was a teenager I didn’t even give it a second thought until my brother got to college and instantly got with one of the christian groups on campus. My personal theory is because he wasn’t a very popular person and they were the people who took him in and he was looking for acceptance. I could be wrong but that’s what I’m going with.

Anyway one day we were out and the whole topic of god came up. He told me what he thought, I told him what I thought and that was that…or so I thought. Christmas came a couple months later and my gift was a bible for me to read so I could have some of my “questions” answered. I know he meant well and it’s not like I really cared whether or not he got me anything in the first place but at the same time it really bothered me that he thought I had questions and just because I didn’t believe in the same thing he did that he had to try and change me.

Anyway it went on like this for years, him trying to convert me to Christianity and me not having any of it. People in my family have even told me they’d pray for me when they found out I’m an atheist as if there was somehow something wrong with me, which there isn’t by the way in case you’re wondering regardless of what I do or do not believe. I had an aunt that looked like she was even going to feint when she found out.

Some (not all) Christians and Catholics go on and on about how “the atheists” are persecuting them but you all need to remember that it happens to us also. And there are WAY more of you than there are of us so you can’t go on about how the religious minority is out to get you. Most of us just want to be considered people just like everyone else but mostly what I see is us being labeled as a sub-group of lesser people. I know everyone doesn’t think this way but that’s pretty much what I hear much of the time. Even in thread someone said that atheists are selfish and we’re unable to love as much as someone that believes in God.

That is completely demeaning to anyone, atheist or not. I’m a good person, I help others when I can, I do my best not to bad mouth people and I can love just as much as the next person. I live a good life and it’s because that’s the way I want to live, not because I think I’ll go to hell if I don’t.

In all reality I really have no problem with religion, it just isn’t for me because my mind doesn’t work that way. In my mind, just because science can’t explain something, that doesn’t mean it was the work of God. It just means we’re not smart enough to have figured it out yet. People used to be burned at the stake or tortured in the name of God because they talked things that went against the church or God but today are considered common knowledge. If believing in God makes people feel better then more power to you but that doesn’t mean it’s for everyone. For me it’s just another way for someone else to control my actions and tell me what I can or can’t do with my life.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m a Catholic convert, from atheism. I agree, when I was an atheist, people telling me they were praying for me was really grating. I viewed it as “them” trying to fix me. It took me quite a while, years, to just let it go. I saw that prayer was important to people who believed, and so I came to view it as something they needed, that didn’t really effect me. And, I understood that prayer is something they did for people they loved and cared about. I was good with that.

Now, I am Catholic. I don’t feel “fixed”. I feel just as broken as I have always felt. I just feel extreme gratitude to God for leading me to him. My husband is atheist. He was genuinely shocked to learn that I actually pray. I pray for him. It isn’t that I am hoping to change him, I love him as he is. I don’t pray, God, please change my husband into something he is not. I pray that God helps him to see who he is. As, it is something that I see already. Knowing you are loved by God is not a bad thing to hope for the people that you love.

to the OP: I don’t see atheists as a problem or something to be dealt with. I live my life every day with atheists who are my family, who I love. I don’t view them as my problems. If/when we discuss religion, I can feel those stings, from comments they make. I know it comes from not knowing what I wish they did know. It can hurt but I am not angry. I try to stay patient and gentle. To explain what I believe, carefully, factually, joyfully, without throwing any barbs in return. Sometimes this is hard, and when it is, I just stay silent. Or, just say that they have said something that is hurtful and leave it at that.

I also have atheists friends. We rarely, if ever, talk about anything religious. They are comfortable with who they are, and I am comfortable with who I am. What would they have to say other than, “I don’t believe”? As young as you are, you are still dealing with people who are immature and have not grown into who they are. As you are still doing too. Just be yourself. If people don’t like you for who you are, or you don’t like them for who they are, even in your differences, then your friendship is not going to last. Not without heavy doses of drama. Ditch the drama. Keep the friends.

It it is just plain mean people. That doesn’t have much to do with belief or non-belief. That is just how some people are.

 

[KingAlfred]

So tell me how do you deal with atheists? I mean I have alot of atheist friends and I just feel like im the only true catholic teenager that I know.

How do ou deal with problems with atheists and other religions?

One of the reasons I love Mother Teresa and study her works constantly is that in India, she wasn’t allowed to evangelize overtly for Catholicism. The most she could do was to exemplify our faith as gloriously as possible, which of course, she did. She taught Catholicism to tens of millions, strictly through devotion and sacrifice, inherent to her service, to the poorest of the poor. I actually emulate her at work, where I’m surrounded by atheists and active members of the culture of repudiation. Example is everthing.

 

[CWBetts]

For me it’s just another way for someone else to control my actions and tell me what I can or can’t do with my life.

You could have saved a lot of typing by saying, “I don’t wnat to believe in God because I have problems with authority.”

 

[j1akey]

“I don’t wnat to believe in God because I have problems with authority.”

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. /palmface :banghead:

I guess I shouldn’t be surprised though.

So who’s authority are we talking about here? The churches authority? Gods? God and the bible are creations of man and man in general isn’t any better than I already am.

I don’t have problems with authority. There are alot of people that have authority over me; my boss, my parents to a limited extent, police officers, etc. If I met you on the street and told you to go kneel before me would you do it? Of course not, because you don’t recoginize my authority over you, and you shouldn’t be expected to. Does it mean you have a problem with authority? Again, of course not. No more than I should be expected to recognize the churches authority over me to tell me who or who not to worship, if I even worshiped anything at all.

 

[PJM]

Anyway one day we were out and the whole topic of god came up. He told me what he thought, I told him what I thought and that was that…or so I thought. Christmas came a couple months later and my gift was a bible for me to read so I could have some of my “questions” answered. I know he meant well and it’s not like I really cared whether or not he got me anything in the first place but at the same time it really bothered me that he thought I had questions and just because I didn’t believe in the same thing he did that he had to try and change me.

 

[j1akey]

I promise I’ll reply to all that as soon as I can. I’m at work right now and don’t have the time to go through it all.

 

[j1akey]

Sounds to me like you have a very caring brother. That’s a good thing right?

Yes he is a caring person, but being caring and trying to push your beliefs on someone are completely different things.

As to you having, or not having questions, like many Catholics I suspect, we just cannot understand how you can be alive in a Universe with Millions of galaxies and Billions of stars, a sun and moon that set regullarly, the fact that humanity are born with both physical and SPIRITUAL attributes [mind, intellect and freewill] that no other species have, and not have questions. We are frankly assounded and perplexed by you’re stated position.

I don’t think Catholics and a great many Christians mean to belittle, as much as we are befuddled!

I do admit the universe is a facinating place with mysteries so perplexing that we will probably never figure it all out or at the very least take a very long time. However saying “God did it” isn’t really an acceptable answer for me. Just because something can’t be explained doesn’t mean it was the work of god. The black plague was the work of god before people discovered a thing called disease and it’s been like that througout human history. If we can’t explain something then it was done by god either as a reward or punishment.

I would also disagree with you that humans are born with spiritual attributes. Being able to use your mind, having an intellect and having free will are all learned as a child and through experience. There have been rare and horrific cases that demonstratet his. Every once in a while you hear a story about a child being raised by animals or being locked up in a basement ever since said child or teenager was a baby. It’s very rare but it does happen. These people don’t develope normally, they never learn to talk, they never learn to socialize with people or do any of the “human” things that we take for granted. Once found they need to be cared for for the rest of their lives because they never developed these things when they were babies which is when most of the developement of the brain occurs after you’re born. If you miss that window of opportunity then you’re only physically human, the brain won’t function like everyone elses.

The same thing applies to belief in god. The only reason anyone believes in god is because they were taught to believe in god.

Believing in a greater power becuase we can’t figure out the answers the universe just means we’re not smart enough to figure out the universe. Saying “god did it” is the easy way out and prevents people from looking for the answer.

Ask yourself friend, why only humanity have “Spiritual attributes” of mind, intellect and freewill." Or do you REALLY think that too is simply a accident. Have you asked yoursel “why am I born?” That’s a good starting point, or don’t you even care why?

Actually almost everything with a brain has some level of intelligence. Dogs can be trained and learn how to do things. African buffalo run away from lions because they’ve learned they’ll get eaten if they don’t. Animals also have free will as well. They don’t just wander around randomly. The level of intelligence may not be that of a human being but it is there. Animals are also pretty aware of their surroundings, know how to hunt for food, survive in the wilderness, things most humans can’t even do these days because we’ve forgotten how to get food unless it comes from grociery store.

As far as the being born question goes, I was born because my parent did the nasty 32 years ago and here I am. Biology 101. My personality was developed over life experiences.

Do you really think that how one should life there life is SOLEY up to the individual? Are we not part of a society? Should that fact come into play?

For the most part yes. I think people need to be free to choose how they live. Sure people are part of a society and society has laws that people need to adhere to. It’s also beneficial for everyone to be part of that society because it makes things easier on everyone. This has been true since the days of cave men. However I’m not really sure what that has to do with believing in god.

You find it hard to understand how I can say “there is no god”. If I were to come up here and say “Hail Thor!” or “Praise almighty Zues” you would all think I’m rediculous or crazy because norse gods aren’t really worshiped today. At least not in this part of the world but to me those gods are just as real as the Catholic god which is to say it isn’t real to me at all. Yes the universe is full of mystery and wonder and most of which I don’t understand at all. For me not understanding something and trying to find the answer is preferable to just saying it was done by God. When people stop looking for answers then they stop trying to improve their knowledge and understanding of how things work. Looking for answers to all the unsolved riddles of the universe in a book that was written hundreds of years ago is not finding an answer to anything.

 

[CWBetts]

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. /palmface :banghead:

I guess I shouldn’t be surprised though.

So who’s authority are we talking about here? The churches authority? Gods? God and the bible are creations of man and man in general isn’t any better than I already am.

I don’t have problems with authority. There are alot of people that have authority over me; my boss, my parents to a limited extent, police officers, etc. If I met you on the street and told you to go kneel before me would you do it? Of course not, because you don’t recoginize my authority over you, and you shouldn’t be expected to. Does it mean you have a problem with authority? Again, of course not. No more than I should be expected to recognize the churches authority over me to tell me who or who not to worship, if I even worshiped anything at all.

You don’t want anyone telling you what to do…that is propblems with authority

 

[PJM]

Yes he is a caring person, but being caring and trying to push your beliefs on someone are completely different things.

I do admit the universe is a facinating place with mysteries so perplexing that we will probably never figure it all out or at the very least take a very long time. However saying “God did it” isn’t really an acceptable answer for me. Just because something can’t be explained doesn’t mean it was the work of god. The black plague was the work of god before people discovered a thing called disease and it’s been like that througout human history. If we can’t explain something then it was done by god either as a reward or punishment.

Call Him /it, what you will, clearly there is a supreme power /source. We choose to call God.

I

would also disagree with you that humans are born with spiritual attributes.

Certainly these “spiritual THINGS” need to be developed. That does not make them "physical."

Quantify for me you’re mind.[NOT you’re brain which is physical, you’re mind.] How large, how much does it weigh? What color is it, what is its shape?

Now do the same with you’re intellect, and freewill. You can’t! Because while we can prove that they exist, we can’t see them, touch them, smell them or quantify them because they are SPIRITUAL. If you have a different way of explaining them, please share it.

**So where did they orginate? The realm of the physical is limited to the realm of the physical. **

The same thing applies to belief in god. The only reason anyone believes in god is because they were taught to believe in god.

While you are entitiled to you’re belief, MY Personal belief in God only began with what I was taught. It is what I have observed, experienced, wittnessed, and studied that have formed the core of my belief in God. I am 100% certain of the grounds, logic, and the ability to verify same for any truthful person with personal intregity. If one can be honest with themselves, I believe that a case can be made for the existence of “God.”

Believing in a greater power becuase we can’t figure out the answers the universe just means we’re not smart enough to figure out the universe. Saying “god did it” is the easy way out and prevents people from looking for the answer.

Saying we are not "smart enough is itself evidence of a GREATER power, which we call God."

**
We sent a man to the moon and back, cured polio, invented electricity, can explode an atom, and we still don’t know all or even a great part of the answers. Does that fact not support a Higher Power? Be honest now.**

Actually almost everything with a brain has some level of intelligence. Dogs can be trained and learn how to do things. **[Instinct!] ** African buffalo run away from lions because they’ve learned they’ll get eaten if they don’t. **[Instinct] ** Animals also have free will as well. They don’t just wander around randomly. **[Oh really?, INSTINCT!] ** The level of intelligence may not be that of a human being but it is there. Animals are also pretty aware of their surroundings, know how to hunt for food, survive in the wilderness, things most humans can’t even do these days because we’ve forgotten how to get food unless it comes from grociery store. [Again Instinct!]

Can an animal know right from wrong? Can they know good from bad? Can they reason out problems, say WHY 1+1 always = 2? Can they be artictically creative? Put a plate of beef in front of a hungry Lion, can IT CHOOSE to not eat it? NO! Instinct!

Do the same with you and YOU CAN CHOOSE!

As far as the being born question goes, I was born because my parent did the nasty 32 years ago and here I am. Biology 101. My personality was developed over life experiences.

So then everytime mom and dad “did the nasty” mom got pregnant right? Why not?
[Biology 102]

So are you saying that we do have a mind, intellect and freewill, but for a purhaps unidentified purpose?

You find it hard to understand how I can say “there is no god”. If I were to come up here and say “Hail Thor!” or “Praise almighty Zues” you would all think I’m rediculous or crazy because norse gods aren’t really worshiped today.

Actually I have NO PROBLEM in anyone Denying “god” at this juncture in our discussion. Apply what ever name you’re more comfortable with. Supreme Power, Unknown Source, Superman, or whatever. The point is that in order to even began to explain the Universe, one has to be intellectual dishonest not to CREDIT some OUTSIDE INFLUENCE, which we choose to call God.

Looking forward to you’re reply.

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[KingAlfred]

My department, in the high school where I teach, is populated by atheists for the most part. Some aren’t just atheists, but outspoken secular progressives and decidedly anti-religion types. Many are hardcore, almost combative feminists. There is only one other strongly Christian teacher on the faculty. I find that I can’t participate in many of their group conversations or activities, many of which I find morally objectionable. This habit of mine has made me somewhat unpopular. Over the course of three years, I’ve had to accept this hard fact of life and focus on my job almost entirely. I now feel so much better about myself, having exited the group, without apology, without fear of reprisal. I’m courteous and professionally cooperative, of course, but definitely not a member of their sub-culture.

 

[PJM]

=KingAlfred;5284334]My department, in the high school where I teach, is populated by atheists for the most part. Some aren’t just atheists, but outspoken secular progressives and decidedly anti-religion types. Many are hardcore, almost combative feminists. There is only one other strongly Christian teacher on the faculty. I find that I can’t participate in many of their group conversations or activities, many of which I find morally objectionable. This habit of mine has made me somewhat unpopular. Over the course of three years, I’ve had to accept this hard fact of life and focus on my job almost entirely. I now feel so much better about myself, having exited the group, without apology, without fear of reprisal. I’m courteous and professionally cooperative, of course, but definitely not a member of their sub-culture.

You’re life requires a very strong prayer ethic.

John 15: 20 “Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you”

Keep in mind dear friend that God always provides sufficient GRACE for the crosses He gives us.

Love and prayers,

 

[wcknight]

Yes he is a caring person, but being caring and trying to push your beliefs on someone are completely different things.

,

The same thing applies to belief in god. The only reason anyone believes in god is because they were taught to believe in god.

Actually we do try to “push our beliefs” for many reasons some of which are part of our beliefs, and some of which are human nature (or ego). Most times, we are not trying to belittle or insult other folks because that, of course, would be counter productive.

IF it ever gets to that point you know you’ve lost the battle, not to say that we are wrong, but no one is going to convince anyone when they feel put down or insulted.

Let’s look at why we may be so pushy and maybe you can understand our motives for being somewhat persistent.

First off, we are taught from early on, that it is part of our responsibility to spread the word of God. We ARE our brother’s keeper, we are reponsible for their well being both phyically and spiritual. We are not 100% responsible but we are committed (or should be committed ) to at least provide for their minimal welfare. That’s the main reason, why Christians and Catholics in particular, are really big into charitable giving world wide.

Of course part of this caring applies to their spiritual welfare (and your spiritual welfare). IF we sit idly by and let our brothers fail spiritually then we share in part of their failure. We don’t want anyone to go to eternal damnation, if we can at all help it. So we make every effort to spread the Word of God.

IF at times we become annoying or bothersome, it is only because we believe the message is that important. IF we see someone approaching the edge of a cliff, we believe it is our duty to help talk them out of it. The closer they get to the abyss, the more insistent we become with our warnings.

We are by both necessity and design, busy bodies. We are 100% devoted to the Truth and we are determined to save as many souls as we possibly can. We are going to try to save you from yourself even if you don’t want to save yourself. That’s part of our mission in life. We will talk to you, pray for you, whatever it takes, because we believe that is what God wants us to do.

So if you visit a Catholic web site, that is what you can expect, each and every time. And IF you don’t get this type of conjoling or harrassment, then we are not doing our jobs properly.

And … “being taught” it is NOT the only reason why we believe in God, many of us were taught and still left or strayed (myself included). We searched and came back because we searched and found other reasons to return.

What I was taught was not enough to make me stay indefinitely. What I learned and experienced and heard through my lifes journey is what convinced me that we have it 100% correct.

Christ’s peace and I WILL comtinue to pray for you and all atheists and agnostics, whether you want it or not.

 

[aingil]

There are two types of Atheists.

1. Atheist fundamentalists and 2) those who just don’t want to practice any religion.

The former will take every attempt to poke at your faith, try everything to convert you to their religion. They are quite pushy and loudmouthed.

The latter just don’t believe and are “live and let live” types.

If you are with the former, run away. You cannot reason with them or talk about anything without drama happening.

If you are with the latter, there’s nothing to worry about.

I disagree. The atheist fundamentalist types are going to cause drama and you will probably end up stepping on each other’s toes. That being said, they are not unreachable. Evangelism is not supposed to be easy and nice. It’s not like you discuss nicely over coffee for a few nights and they are convinced to believe in God because of Aquinas’s five proofs.

Conversion is a matter of the heart. Yes, often times you have to get the head out of the way first, but the heart is what you are after. It is a lot easier to reach the heart of someone who cares about something, than the heart that is apathetic. Why do you think that Jesus said what he said about the lukewarm?

Running away from saving a soul is never the answer. You have to pray and discern how God wishes to use you to reach that soul. Does this mean that you will argue with every militant atheist that crosses you path? Of course not, but to run away every time is not being open to saving that soul. Which is the entire point of evangelization to begin with. There are a hundred ways to reach souls and you don’t know them, God does.

 

[Benadam]

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. /palmface :banghead:

No more than I should be expected to recognize the churches authority over me to tell me who or who not to worship, if I even worshiped anything at all

 

[MatthewCrossman]

“Preach the Gospel always, and only when necessary use words.”

People want to see an authentic life. People want to see someone who lives up to their morals and in the end is happier for having done it. My advice would be to love love and love some more. People eventually start to see the connection.

As atheists believe in no God, no afterlife then there really is no point to their generosity. I know someone is going to quote me saying “WHAT DO YOU MEAN!?!?! There are no nice atheists?!?!” So I’m going to get this over with right now. There are nice atheists. I have met and befriended many of them myself. But, my question to you is, who is the atheist equivalent of Mother Theresa? Atheists can be nice, they can love selflessly, but only to a point. I know many religious people have that point as well, but all of the people who don’t have "that point’ where they stop being selfless, are religious.

It will take a good deal of time for your own life to convince your friends that God makes you a better person and that it is possible to live a full, authentic life.

They do not cry “we hate you” they cry "don’t tell me, show me."

This quote is simply magnificent…very good advice.

I would try and be the example you would like to see if the roles were reversed and you found yourself far from faith. I have many atheist colleagues and to be honest I feel for them. The world they live in must ultimately be very cold, lonely and unforgiving.

In most cases I believe you can argue all you like, but if your example is inauthentic no-one is going to have any cause to wonder what it is they might be missing out on.

And that would be a tragedy.

 

[PJM]

This quote is simply magnificent…very good advice.

I would try and be the example you would like to see if the roles were reversed and you found yourself far from faith. I have many atheist colleagues and to be honest I feel for them. The world they live in must ultimately be very cold, lonely and unforgiving.

In most cases I believe you can argue all you like, but if your example is inauthentic no-one is going to have any cause to wonder what it is they might be missing out on.

And that would be a tragedy.

Very well done friend!

 

[PJM]

My department, in the high school where I teach, is populated by atheists for the most part. Some aren’t just atheists, but outspoken secular progressives and decidedly anti-religion types. Many are hardcore, almost combative feminists. There is only one other strongly Christian teacher on the faculty. I find that I can’t participate in many of their group conversations or activities, many of which I find morally objectionable. This habit of mine has made me somewhat unpopular. Over the course of three years, I’ve had to accept this hard fact of life and focus on my job almost entirely. I now feel so much better about myself, having exited the group, without apology, without fear of reprisal. I’m courteous and professionally cooperative, of course, but definitely not a member of their sub-culture.

May God continue to bless, guide and guard you friend!

 

[j1akey]

Hi PJM, been a crazy couple weeks and forgot about this thread but I’m back.

Call Him /it, what you will, clearly there is a supreme power /source. We choose to call God.

I respectfully disagree that there is clearly a supreme power. I don’t see anything that leads me to believe there is so I guess it’s a matter of perspective in this case and coming to different conclusions based on our experiences in life.

Certainly these “spiritual THINGS” need to be developed. That does not make them “physical.”

Quantify for me you’re mind.[NOT you’re brain which is physical, you’re mind.] How large, how much does it weigh? What color is it, what is its shape?

Now do the same with you’re intellect, and freewill. You can’t! Because while we can prove that they exist, we can’t see them, touch them, smell them or quantify them because they are SPIRITUAL. If you have a different way of explaining them, please share it.

So where did they orginate? The realm of the physical is limited to the realm of the physical.

First, I don’t remember ever saying anywhere in my post about how spiritual things are also physical. Nor did I try to explain them or quantify them. I was just pointing out that many aspects of our lives are taught and that includes religion and belief in god. If you grew up on a desert island all alone you would probably not have any concept of god whatsoever. If you did it wouldn’t be in the form of christianity because you would have no knowledge of christ or the bible or any of the history behind it. You were taught these things either by your parents or the church or who ever. You believe in what you were taught. It’s learned just like anything else.

Now you ask me to quantify free will, intellect, etc. That’s rediculous because no one can but I wasn’t trying to in the first place so I’m not sure how you thought I was. I was just referencing known cases of people who grew up completely isolated from the rest of the world.

While you are entitiled to you’re belief, MY Personal belief in God only began with what I was taught. It is what I have observed, experienced, wittnessed, and studied that have formed the core of my belief in God. I am 100% certain of the grounds, logic, and the ability to verify same for any truthful person with personal intregity. If one can be honest with themselves, I believe that a case can be made for the existence of “God.”

Exactly my point. You were taught to believe in god and what you observed in life reinforced those beliefs but before you could relate those life experiences to something it had to be taught to you.

On the other side of the coin, disbelief in god also starts with teaching people about god. When I was a kid I went to church and was taught all this stuff also. The only difference is I didn’t believe any of it and you did so we took different paths.

Saying we are not “smart enough is itself evidence of a GREATER power, which we call God.”

I don’t get it, we’re not smart enough so that means there’s a god?

We sent a man to the moon and back, cured polio, invented electricity, can explode an atom, and we still don’t know all or even a great part of the answers. Does that fact not support a Higher Power? Be honest now.

Well you asked so now I’m going to be honest.

Going to the moon just means we figured out how to build giant rockets to blast us into space and got the thrust to weight ratio right so we didn’t fall back to earth before we ran out of gas. It’s physics and engineering.

We didn’t invent electricity we just figured out a way to use it for own purposes. Electricty was always there.

Cured Polio - We figured out how to use Medicine

Atom bomb - Figured out how to make big explosions

and we still don’t know all or even a great part of the answers. Does that fact not support a Higher Power? Be honest now

I’m sorry but lack of knowledge is just lack of knowledge and nothing else. That lack of knowledge leads people to believe in god because they can’t explain things but because people believe it doesn’t make it true.

So are you saying that we do have a mind, intellect and freewill, but for a purhaps unidentified purpose?

Well I don’t know what your purpose is but mine is to live my life the best way I can and have fun doing it. I don’t need purpose beyond that.

Supreme Power, Unknown Source, Superman, or whatever. The point is that in order to even began to explain the Universe, one has to be intellectual dishonest not to CREDIT some OUTSIDE INFLUENCE, which we choose to call God.

Why? It just goes back to my original point. We can’t figure out the answer to something so god did it? I’m unwilling to accept that. There’s always an answer and god has been used to explain why something is the way it is until we figure out another answer then all of the sudden it’s not the work of god. It’s been that way throughout history and while the answers to the universe may be way more complicated than figuring out why lightning strikes where it does, the idea is the same.