Dealing with difficult deacon

[bpcatholic]

I need help. I have a deacon at my parish who insists the term pro-abortion is wrong and misleading and says pro-choice is the proper term for it. What are some ways I can “convince” him otherwise? Thanks!

bpcatholic

 

[puzzleannie]

I need help. I have a deacon at my parish who insists the term pro-abortion is wrong and misleading and says pro-choice is the proper term for it. What are some ways I can “convince” him otherwise? Thanks!

bpcatholic

ask him what is the proper term for discussing murder and other capital crimes–is it pro-death, pro-murder, pro-rape, or pro choice? there is no choice involved as hospitals, doctors, state and local governments, schools etc. are being coerced into following the pro-abort pro-death stance.

 

[tjm190]

I need help. I have a deacon at my parish who insists the term pro-abortion is wrong and misleading and says pro-choice is the proper term for it. What are some ways I can “convince” him otherwise? Thanks!

bpcatholic

If I’m pro giving the government the freedom to use capital punishment, I’m pro capital punishment.

If I’m pro giving the military the freedom to continue it’s presence in Iraq, I’m pro Iraq-war

If I’m pro giving people the freedom to own slaves, I’m pro slavery

If I’m pro giving group Y the freedom to engage in act X, I’m pro X.

If I’m pro giving women the freedom to have abortions, I’m pro abortion.

 

[Just_Lurking]

“Pro-abortion-rights” and “anti-abortion” are the most neutral terms, which is why nobody uses them.

 

[bpcatholic]

This is what I said:

Deacon, it isn’t a choice to begin with. Just because a majority of people believe it is a matter of choice does not make it a choice, and we as Christians should not be accepting it, no matter how fashionable it is. Pope Benedict has said “Being an adult means having a faith which does not follow the waves of today’s fashions or the latest novelties.”

To which he said:

I don’t argue that abortion is bad. I just argue with the label that you and others use (pro-abortion.) God gave people free will. That is choice. We have choice in everything we do and we also will pay the consequences for those choices one way or another. We hope people make good and moral choices, but people unfortunately make bad choices in their lives. The root of the problem of abortion is the same as the root of most all evils in the world, that is lack of responsibility for one’s behavior and selfishness. Abortion is not a single issue, but a terrible, terrible symptom of all that is wrong in our society.

What do I say to this?

 

[bpcatholic]

I could always say people can choose to be pro-abortion, which they do.

 

[Sudie_Nim]

I think the deacon is arguing semantics. No matter what you call this choice, it’s wrong. It’s a sin.

 

[Newbie2]

What do I say to this?

Tell him that the “choice” involved in pro-choice is choosing an abortion. There is no opposition or debate over whether it’s right to “choose” to have an unborn child or not. The “default” position of a pregnant girl or woman, if she chooses not to act, is to have the baby.

You can tell him that most people do a bit more deep thinking than the rock band Rush; “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice”.

 

[Sudie_Nim]

The choice part should be made before conception. Before sex.

 

[Godfollower]

This is what I said:

Deacon, it isn’t a choice to begin with. Just because a majority of people believe it is a matter of choice does not make it a choice, and we as Christians should not be accepting it, no matter how fashionable it is. Pope Benedict has said “Being an adult means having a faith which does not follow the waves of today’s fashions or the latest novelties.”

You should say,

First, I apologize for calling a man of God “difficult” just because we disagree on the semantics of a point when we both agree on the substantive point, and deacon, I ask your forgiveness.

Second, obviously we agree on the important point (the sinfulness of abortion) and just have a minor difference on what to call the other side. I argue that you should say “pro-abortion” because that is what I perceive them to be; but I understand that you come at it differently. I recognize that reasonable minds can differ about this, and I understand that you would rather accept the other side’s label for itself, then concentrate on trying to change their minds on the substantive point, instead of bickering over labels.

I admire you for giving your life to God, and for focusing on the important thing in this particular debate rather than insisting on name-calling.

Just my :twocents:

 

[Bluegoat]

Usually if you want to have some kind of civil social dialogue with people who have a different POV than you, the best start is to call them by the name they prefer. It shows charity and respect for them as human beings. We are always called to ascribe the best of motives to people, even those we think are very wrong indeed.

As well, many people who in some way support the legality of abortion are not, strictly speaking, pro-abortion. Most probably aren’t in the sense that they think it is a good idea for people to go out and get abortions. So they resent being labeled in a way that seems inaccurate to them. As if they labeled pro-life people “anti-choice” (which some do, and it ticks off pro-life people.) By saying pro-choice, it shows that we understand how they concieve their position.

And calling an opposing POV by a name that brings up the worst possible connotations is a way of emotionally twisting words to make people agree with you. If there is a good argument about abortion, it should not require that. If you are trying to stop the discussion before it starts, then it is a way to do it.

 

[m134e5]

I need help. I have a deacon at my parish who insists the term pro-abortion is wrong and misleading and says pro-choice is the proper term for it. What are some ways I can “convince” him otherwise? Thanks!

bpcatholic

I would drop the issue. The deacon is right. “Pro-abortion” is used to antagonize people, and somehow I don’t think it is very effective. I have found when talking to people who support abortion rights (and who tend to support the rest of the list of causes that seems to be part of a package deal with that crowd), you have to be very careful in order to be effective. If you offend them, they will close up and quit listening to everything you have to say.

 

[Corki]

Usually if you want to have some kind of civil social dialogue with people who have a different POV than you, the best start is to call them by the name they prefer. It shows charity and respect for them as human beings. We are always called to ascribe the best of motives to people, even those we think are very wrong indeed.

As well, many people who in some way support the legality of abortion are not, strictly speaking, pro-abortion. Most probably aren’t in the sense that they think it is a good idea for people to go out and get abortions. So they resent being labeled in a way that seems inaccurate to them. As if they labeled pro-life people “anti-choice” (which some do, and it ticks off pro-life people.) By saying pro-choice, it shows that we understand how they concieve their position.

And calling an opposing POV by a name that brings up the worst possible connotations is a way of emotionally twisting words to make people agree with you. If there is a good argument about abortion, it should not require that. If you are trying to stop the discussion before it starts, then it is a way to do it.

But the OP is talking to his deacon. If a Catholic Deacon is “pro choice” the OP has bigger problems than terminology.

 

[Godfollower]

But the OP is talking to his deacon. If a Catholic Deacon is “pro choice” the OP has bigger problems than terminology.

The deacon isn’t pro-choice; the OP said the deacon is pro-life but objects to the terminology “pro-abortion” when talking to the opposition. This entire thread is a discussion of tactics when opposing abortion.

 

[Corki]

The deacon isn’t pro-choice; the OP said the deacon is pro-life but objects to the terminology “pro-abortion” when talking to the opposition. This entire thread is a discussion of tactics when opposing abortion.

I know that. I was responding to Bluegoat’s post, not the OP’s.

 

[Drawmack]

I need help. I have a deacon at my parish who insists the term pro-abortion is wrong and misleading and says pro-choice is the proper term for it. What are some ways I can “convince” him otherwise? Thanks!

bpcatholic

How about you don’t convince him otherwise? How about if you actually approach your fellow man with love and charity instead of rhetoric and vitriol?

 

[Drawmack]

I think the deacon is arguing semantics. No matter what you call this choice, it’s wrong. It’s a sin.

Ummmm, wouldn’t the person who is taking issue with the deacon’s words actually the one arguing semantics?

 

[Drawmack]

But the OP is talking to his deacon. If a Catholic Deacon is “pro choice” the OP has bigger problems than terminology.

Every single time this issue is discussed on these boards and I chime in with my opinion it is in fairly short order that I am accused of being pro-choice. Never mind that I work diligently for the pro-life movement and had more than a handful of women tell me that I am the reason they decided to have their babies instead of having an abortion. And, here is it again – this time ascribed to a Deacon. Well, at least I’m in good company.

 

[Corki]

Every single time this issue is discussed on these boards and I chime in with my opinion it is in fairly short order that I am accused of being pro-choice. Never mind that I work diligently for the pro-life movement and had more than a handful of women tell me that I am the reason they decided to have their babies instead of having an abortion. And, here is it again – this time ascribed to a Deacon. Well, at least I’m in good company.

You completely misunderstand. I was not calling the deacon pro-choice. The OP was asking about talking to the Deacon and Bluegoat responded with advice on talking to pro-choice people. I merely commented that deacon and pro-choice should not be describing the same person.

Please, people. Read the whole post before you jump all over me. :banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[AJTheMan]

This could come off as divisive but my understanding is that you can be pro-choice without being pro-abortion. Those who are pro-choice support a woman’s right to choose abortion but may see the act as an evil.