dealing with EF/OF tension

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pnewton said:
FYI - I also do not “twitter” (whatever that is) and have decided I am old to text. Okay, some people do get their information from YouTube. I stand corrected. I do agree with the value of the internet though, if you are talking about accessing the Vatican website.
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I don’t twitter nor text either. I agree with you on the Vatican website. They’ve put out quite a few documents on there I had no idea existed. In different languages too. 👍
 
ProVobis said:
I don’t twitter nor text either. I agree with you on the Vatican website. They’ve put out quite a few documents on there I had no idea existed. In different languages too. 👍
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Same here. No twitter, no text. In fact I only have a cell phone for emergencies. I guess I’d better charge it!
 
LittleSoldier said:
I think that quote is actually very good because while reading it I thought of something. The “attack” was from one person, correct? So why blame all traditionalists? Wouldn’t that be the same as blaming all Baptists for what one Baptist did or blaming all women for what one woman did?

Or blaming all Catholics for what one Catholic did?

Is it a good idea to extrapolate group behavior from the actions of one person? I don’t think so and I think this is one of the reasons there is so much tension when this subject is brought up. Aren’t we supposed to be part of the Communion of Saints? Aren’t we supposed to all be brothers and sisters in Christ?

Aren’t we supposed to love each other? We sure don’t act like it sometimes, me included. I don’t like being this way. 😦
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Exactly, but it never seems to end on any forum. Even on the trad forums they bicker.

There are very few here who can post without slipping into the trap. Is is indeed sad, especially when we catch ourselves doing it.
 
LittleSoldier said:
I’m too ill now to do any research. That’s why I worded my post the way I did, without links (I usually provide links). It’s my own experience and what people have told me that I have based this on. It’s certainly not scientific research and as a scientist I’ll be the first to state that. It’s my opinion, nothing more. I apologize if I didn’t make that clear.

I understand the Mass much more now than I did when it was in Latin. Unfortunately there are a myriad of confounding factors that I can’t tease out. Has my knowledge of the Mass improved because it’s in English or because I’m older or because I once left the Church and came back or because I am actually participating in it instead of just attending? I’m sure all these factors play a part.

I’m sure studies have been done but I can’t search for them right now.

Nope. When I was a teenager I knew what that meant. I didn’t know the Kyrie Eleison was Greek. Of course when I was very young I thought the Holy Spirit was a parakeet and Mary was full of grapes, so I didn’t have the English down very well either (oh, I hope I don’t get banned for that because I love the Holy Spirit and Mary so, so much, but it’s true).

I’ll get banned; you’ll just get an infraction. 😃 I thought they were bringing in sheep!!

I want to say that I have nothing against TLM. If we had one in my parish I would probably attend. I take that back. I would attend. I’m trying to learn Latin; not just because of the Mass but because it’s a beautiful language, many of its words form the basis for English and Spanish words, and because so many people consider it a dead language.

What bothers me is the tension and hostility and now I’ve been part of it for blowing up at a banned member who can’t even respond. I guess I just don’t understand the importance of things like gold chalices and Communion rails. They are disciplines and can be changed. And as a woman I admit I would feel as if I were being treated in an inferior way if I were told I couldn’t go up beyond the Communion rail except to clean. Having to wear a chapel veil for so much of my life and having been smacked so hard across the face because I lost mine is one of the reasons I left the Church. The emphasis wasn’t on Communion but covering the top of my hair (while the rest flowed down my back), listening to words I didn’t understand, cowering in the Confessional while I lied to the priest about sins I never committed and then wondering if the lies were absolved in this Confession or if I had to come back (and the priest knew who I was anyway).

I apologize - I’m going off topic. But I do have a question. Do traditionalists want a closed Confessional or do they accept an open, face-to-face Confession? I haven’t seen this addressed.
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Maybe a simple humble answer might help. It seems to me that the problem was not yours, but those in the church (nuns, priests ect) This I think is still the problem today, the lack of instruction.I was very lucky to have a parish, priest, nuns ect that really cared even in grade school I really understood what was going on and how the “externals” of our worship and actions made us better understand what was really going on here and why we do what we do. As far as the gold, veil, rail and all the other ornate things that USED to be in Catholic Churches (how sad) This might help… If Queen Elizabeth II were to come to you church what would happen?..Everyone would put on their best cloths, set the best ornate table they could and yes I am sure it would include gold , fine linen amd maybe a veil, and the whole visit would be full of of much pomp and set rubics… THIS IS JUST PERSON , a fellow human How much more should we do for Our God and KING? This is why today as people attend mass in jeans, dressed in things they would not be admitted to any country club dinner. It makes me wonder why today many are so casual with our God. As far as confession … What does form matter , we must stop thinking trad vs of , We are all Catholic we all want the same thing, to be with our father, I think we can do this weither we attend OF or EF. God Bless, I hope this helps in some small way
 
pnewton said:
That is your position and I guess of YouTube.:rotfl:It is not the position of the Catholic Church. You are a prime example of why such conflict exist, by the way. This “My Mass is better than your Mass” attitude does nothing but cause dissension. Most Catholics get their instruction from the bishops, priests, the Vatican and not YouTube.
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I didn’t say “My Mass is better than your Mass” I am not the problem. I didn’t change the mass. Error is the problem. The theology of the Latin Mass comes from the Faith. This being the Dogmas and doctrines of the Catholic Church. The theology of the new mass is primarily from one man (that should raise alarms) he is on record as making comments that can only be defined as Apostasy. The theology of the new mass is in error. This is not my position or that of youtube it is TRADITION. 2&2=4 Thank you God bless you.
 
LittleSoldier said:
Robert, please check my signature. I’m sorry but I won’t respond to your post. If you write your post without placing your responses in my quote I will be happy to discuss your points. Right now I won’t even read them. I would love to debate with you and I hope we can.

If you need to know how to split up a quote I’ll be happy to explain it to you.

I have brain damage and I can’t follow threads where people don’t keep their quotes as their own and leave mine alone. I can’t respond without going through a lot of work to split up your words from mine. I shouldn’t have to do that and others shouldn’t have to pick your words out of my quote. There are a lot of people on CAF who feel the same as I do.

I hope you understand. God bless.
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My message is easily read - I said what I have to say - suffice to say opinion is opinion -You expressed yours and I expressed mine to be read or not read at the sole descretion of the reader , and certainly not for the reason be dictated to as to how this is accomplished.

I hope you understand as well.

Pax
 
garyfigurski said:
Maybe a simple humble answer might help. It seems to me that the problem was not yours, but those in the church (nuns, priests ect) This I think is still the problem today, the lack of instruction.I was very lucky to have a parish, priest, nuns ect that really cared even in grade school I really understood what was going on and how the “externals” of our worship and actions made us better understand what was really going on here and why we do what we do. As far as the gold, veil, rail and all the other ornate things that USED to be in Catholic Churches (how sad) This might help… If Queen Elizabeth II were to come to you church what would happen?..Everyone would put on their best cloths, set the best ornate table they could and yes I am sure it would include gold , fine linen amd maybe a veil, and the whole visit would be full of of much pomp and set rubics… THIS IS JUST PERSON , a fellow human How much more should we do for Our God and KING? This is why today as people attend mass in jeans, dressed in things they would not be admitted to any country club dinner. It makes me wonder why today many are so casual with our God. As far as confession … What does form matter , we must stop thinking trad vs of , We are all Catholic we all want the same thing, to be with our father, I think we can do this weither we attend OF or EF. God Bless, I hope this helps in some small way
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Thank you. It does help, although as an American if queen elizabeth showed up at my church and I was able to get through the door (and not taking into consideration that my church is the House of God) I would wear ratty jeans and refuse to bow before her. I guess that’s the American in me - I’ve got that red, white, and blue blood, apple pie, and baseball mode of thinking, and have a great abhorrence of “royalty”.

Now God!! That is completely different. But I think that humility and respect are in a person, not in the statues and rails and fancy stained glass windows, nor in the clothes we wear. Somewhere there is a church that is decorated with human bones. I don’t know if it’s a Catholic church or even a church at all anymore or just a morbid tourist attraction. I saw a photo of it a long time ago. Some people went to a lot of work putting all those bones together; I mean they were all over the place!

But you are completely correct in that we are all Catholics whether we attend a Latin Mass, a Mass in the vernacular, receive Communion while kneeling (although I can’t do that) or standing, etc. And now that I’ve seen that I jumped right into the tension and anger I’m going to try to be a lot more charitable.

Peace and God bless!!
 
Robert_Burns said:
My message is easily read - I said what I have to say - suffice to say opinion is opinion -You expressed yours and I expressed mine to be read or not read at the sole descretion of the reader , and certainly not for the reason be dictated to as to how this is accomplished.

I hope you understand as well.

Pax
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Actually I don’t understand. It is not considered proper form to insert responses into someone else’s quote. It is not easy to read and the post was a response to my post; hence, I should be able to easily read it. Right now your words appear to have been written by me and I do not appreciate that. You have changed my quote. I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect you to keep your words out of my quote.

If I wished to respond (and I do) and inserted my response into the quote you changed, the number of words would rapidly reach the maximum. That is one reason why that habit is frowned upon.

I offered to tell you how to split a quote. That’s all I can do. If you do not wish to address me politely, please do not address me at all.
 
LittleSoldier said:
Actually I don’t understand. It is not considered proper form to insert responses into someone else’s quote. It is not easy to read and the post was a response to my post; hence, I should be able to easily read it. Right now your words appear to have been written by me and I do not appreciate that. You have changed my quote.

If I wished to respond (and I do) and inserted my response into the quote you changed, the number of words would rapidly reach the maximum. That is one reason why that habit is frowned upon.

I offered to tell you how to split a quote. That’s all I can do. If you do not wish to address me politely, please do not address me at all.
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Hense the Reason i wrote : "Robert : " A Child could understand it.
 
Robert_Burns said:
Hense the Reason i wrote : "Robert : " A Child could understand it.
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You put your words into my quote. It’s my quote, not yours. A child could understand that. And you also wrote the following in my quote:
Robert or you could go to First Friday Benediction in the EF.
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Who should we say wrote that?
 
LittleSoldier said:
Now God!! That is completely different. But I think that humility and respect are in a person, not in the statues and rails and fancy stained glass windows, nor in the clothes we wear. Somewhere there is a church that is decorated with human bones. I don’t know if it’s a Catholic church or even a church at all anymore or just a morbid tourist attraction. I saw a photo of it a long time ago. Some people went to a lot of work putting all those bones together; I mean they were all over the place!
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You are probably referring to the Sedlec Ossuary. Yes, it is a Catholic chapel.
 
LittleSoldier said:
You put your words into my quote. It’s my quote, not yours. A child could understand that. And you also wrote the following in my quote:

Robert: It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

Who should we say wrote that?
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Robert: Well if you didnt then it must have been me. See how that works.
 
Robert_Burns said:
Robert: Well if you didnt then it must have been me. See how that works.
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This is my last post on this as it is off-topic. That is just fine. Now how about all the other people reading the post? They don’t know now, do they? There is no colon. There is absolutely no indication that a person other than myself has written it.

I told you I have brain damage. I offered to tell you how to split up a person’s quote. I don’t see 99 percent of the members on CAF having any sort of problem with being able to do it. It’s quite easy, it makes the posts easier to read, and it makes it extremely easy to respond to a response.

I’m not going to waste my time playing this game with you.

Please keep your comments out of my posts. I am asking you to do that as a Christian. Please.
 
Robert_Burns said:
Robert: Well if you didnt then it must have been me. See how that works.
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Now I see you actually changed the words in the quote. You didn’t respond to them - you actually changed them. You have been reported to the moderator.

I apologize to all thread participants for being forced to take this thread off-topic. This is a serious discussion and what is going on now should not be happening. I’m very sorry.
 
LittleSoldier said:
The “new Mass” is not teaching deficient. Since the Mass is presented in the vernacular, people actually understand what is being said. The “new Mass” is perfectly fine in terms of transubstantiation and **the Last Supper IS the Mass. **

We are doing what Jesus ordered us to do - to consume His Body.

And there’s the rub. For the Mass is NOT a celebration of the Last Supper, it is an unbloody offering of Christ to His Father. This has been so since the beginning of Catholicism. The Didache refers to the Eucharist as a thusia, the Greek term for sacrifice: "Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, **so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. **. The Mass as a Sacrifice is also part of Scripture.

[Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" .

I think that people today are not able to grasp the idea of Sacrifice & in order to do so, the Old Testament must be read as precursor to the New Testament. The Jewish nation offered lambs, they offered grain, they had what were called “wave offerings”…where they would simply wave something as a Sacrifice to God.

The words, “offer this or sacrifice this” appear over seventy times in the Old Testament. So the same word that is used for the sacrifice under the Old Covenant is used for the sacrifice of the Mass in the New.

Why do we offer a Sacrifice? To appease a JUST God. That is why Christ died, to appease God & beg His forgiveness & mercy. (It’s amazing to me…the JUST God demanded a Sacrifice, so this same MERICFUL God sent HIS OWN Son to be the Lamb on the Altar, thereby appeasing Himself, yet costing Him dearly. This fact alone is one that is mind-boggling).

Today’s Christian will not accept the fact that God is JUST, He is perfect thus He Cannot be otherwise. If He says that we are not to murder another & we do so without repentance & He cannot accept that, He cannot welcome us into His Kingdom. It isn’t that He will not; His perfect nature CANnot. He is also fully Merciful & many people cannot put those two ideas together. Today’s Catholic mainly sees God as a kindly old Grandfather who will pat us on the head…no matter what we do…& tells us that it doesn’t matter, He loves us.

RUBBISH!!! It DOES matter, which is why the Sacrifice of the Mass, must always remain a Sacrifice. The Mass is not a recelebration of the Last Supper, **the Mass is the unbloody Sacrifice of Calvary. **

From the preface of Bishop Fulton Sheen’s book, “Calvary & the Mass”:
Bishop Sheen says,

“Hence the Mass is to us the crowning act of Christian worship. A pulpit in which the words of our Lord are repeated does not unite us to Him; a choir in which sweet sentiments are sung brings us no closer to His Cross than to His garments. **A temple without an altar of sacrifice **is non-existent among primitive peoples, and is meaningless among Christians. And so in the Catholic Church the altar, and not the pulpit or the choir or the organ, is the center of worship, for there is re - enacted the memorial of His Passion.”

The Novus Ordo Mass blurs the Sacrifice of Christ & endeavors to celebrate the Last Supper. Thus the “communal meal” atmosphere. This is a sacrilege in my opinion.

I’ll try to post later on the fact that the Sacrificial nature of the Mass was throughly reputed by Cranmer, the author of the first Protestant “Mass”. Cranmer entitled his 1549 service: “The Supper of the Lord and the Holy Communion commonly called the Mass”.

catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/ordo.htm
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