Dealing with non-Catholics in Catholic Schools

[emeraldcoast]

This makes me really, really sad. I think what may happen is that Catholic families will be driven away even more. I know I wouldn’t want to pay for my child to have a “Catholic” education that wasn’t really Catholic and in fact, intentionally designed to downplay Catholicism.

This is what happened in our school system. We actually live in a fantastic public school system. As a military family(now retired), we never lived in a place that we felt the public school were good for our children. We have always sent our children to Episcopal Schools or straight Private Schools. When we moved here, we did not feel comfortable sending our children to public schools even though we were told over and over again how great they are here–we did not believe… We had our choice of a very strict Christian School or the Catholic School. We decided on the Catholic School. We were welcomed with open arms and they took our check gladly. It was the FIRST private school that the children were not interviewed before they were accepted. It is also the school, now I know this, that when the kids are trouble makers in the public school the Catholic School is there to take them and their check. Another thing to keep in mind, since we do live in a very good public school system, a private school education is one thing in the budget that can be dropped when the economy goes south for families. Let me remind you, this is just what I have experienced in one Catholic School.

God Bless!

 

[geometer]

:extrahappy:

In more and more parish schools, non-Catholics are becoming a larger part of the population. As more than one local priest has told me. The parish school is “no longer viable in many cases without our non-Catholic students and their parents.” In some Cleveland area parish schools, the number of non-Catholic students is nearly 50%

Still, there are times when older teachers, grandparents, and even priests have, most often unknowingly, given their protestant friends pause if not outright insulted them. I am now teaching a brief seminar to a few schools on how to avoid this danger.

1. Strike the word “heretic” from your vocabulary. While it may be technically correct it’s both outdated and highly insulting and strikes in protestants the same chord the words pape or mackerel snapper strikes with you.
2. Don’t pretend were not there. At your services or school functions welcome everyone or welcome no one.
3. Do your best not to use the words “in error” when it comes to discussing other faiths. Use terms such as “disagree” or “where the two faiths diverge is…” Or, “differences occur when we get to…” Protestants feel just as strongly as you do about their religious beliefs and nothing comes from starting a conversation with the statement: “Where you’re wrong is…” When teaching religion to a class that has non-Catholics don’t use terms like “We all believe…” Use terms like “Catholics believe…” or the “The Catholic Church teaches…”
4. Do not assume protestants of any denomination would certainly be Catholic if they just knew…It’s not usually the case. And there are many protestants who think the same thing about Catholics, that you’d all be protestant if you just knew…" It’s not true in either direction.
5. “One true church” is a term protestants will always pull back from. Instead, consider saying the Catholic Church, we believe, delivers the full measure of God’s truth and grace in a way that is like no other…" Most mainstream protestants do NOT think their faith is the only truth but merely one of multiple paths going in the same direction and offer all that they need. We are taken aback when someone says they do not.
6. Realize that when you argue social policy or certain matters of faith that the protestant has no obligation to the Pope, nor Catholic tradition, nor Canon Law and any argument based on those foundations will be meaningless to Protestant.
7. You have every right and expectation for non-Catholics to show respect for your beliefs and for them to FULLY participate in your school’s religious instruction and to participate in your religious services up to the point allowable under both faiths.
   Religion teachers have an obligation to be familiar with other faiths and where conflicts may occur. Parents of non-Catholic students have the right and obligation to explain differences to their children. Don’t be shocked when non-Catholic children ask questions of voice disagreement with things. It is certainly fine to remind them that differences are acceptable when respectful, but that they are in a Catholic school and as such they should expect Catholic doctrine to be taught. Use these as teachable moments for the whole class.
8. Don’t be afraid to approach us. We often have a lot of questions that many of us don’t even know how to go about asking. I would suggest printing a small sheet or pamphlet that explains some of the most common misperceptions between protestants and Catholics.
9. Some protestants have a hard time with the title “father.” It’s not meant as a sign of disrespect if a protestant calls a priest Pastor or Reverend.
10. Create appropriate opportunities for Non-Catholics to participate in the school, the church.

Well, I am not going to tell you, that you were adopted…

But, your real parents, want you to be catholic…

Ha, ha, ha…:extrahappy::whacky:

 

[gcnuss]

LT,
One of my complaints when I was ELCA was that a number of ELCA colleges seemed to want to hide their Lutheranism. A good example is Gettysburg, where finding the word Lutheran on their website is a challenge. When my daughter wash searching for a college, we visited Lenior Rhyne, and we got the feeling that Lutheranism took a backseat to being PC. She also considered Belmont Abbey College, unabashedly Catholic. It was much more inviting, more honest, than LRC.

Having three daughters, all of whom graduated from Lenoir-Rhyne, I have a somewhat different view of that institution. There are some very good and faithful Lutherans there – Pr. Andrew Weisner, the campus pastor is outstanding. The Rev. Dr. Larry Yoder, chair of the Department of Religion is as well. Both are members of the Society of the Holy Trinity. Bishop Michael McDaniel, of blessed memory, also served on the faculty and was a founding member of the Society.

Granted, a few good Lutherans are not the whole story, but I have been impressed with those who I have come to know at L-R.

 

[zaffiroborant]

This is what happened in our school system. We actually live in a fantastic public school system. As a military family(now retired), we never lived in a place that we felt the public school were good for our children. We have always sent our children to Episcopal Schools or straight Private Schools. When we moved here, we did not feel comfortable sending our children to public schools even though we were told over and over again how great they are here–we did not believe… We had our choice of a very strict Christian School or the Catholic School. We decided on the Catholic School. We were welcomed with open arms and they took our check gladly. It was the FIRST private school that the children were not interviewed before they were accepted. It is also the school, now I know this, that when the kids are trouble makers in the public school the Catholic School is there to take them and their check. Another thing to keep in mind, since we do live in a very good public school system, a private school education is one thing in the budget that can be dropped when the economy goes south for families. Let me remind you, this is just what I have experienced in one Catholic School.

God Bless!

You commented on the Catholic schools “taking your check” in a previous post also, but I don’t see any such comment concerning the Episcopal or private schools. Why is it noteworthy that the Catholic school “took your check”?

 

[dianaiad]

Excuse me, but nothing she listed had anything to do with simply courtesy, and everything to do with downplaying Catholicism in Catholic schools. Non-Catholics have been attending Catholic schools for generations and somehow all those kids managed to live through it. What is discourteous is sending your child to a school run by another faith and expecting that school to bend to your wishes regarding its approach to faith.

I didn’t see that. Perhaps I see it through a different lens than you do, but I didn’t see that. Using the words 'belief differences" for instance, rather than “You are heretics!” is not downplaying Catholicism. Downplaying Catholicism would be…NOT teaching Catholic principles when they come into conflict with non-Catholic beliefs. She certainly did not advocate that.

I beleive that item #7 made it rather clear that she did not expect Catholics not to teach Catholicism; quite the contrary.

However, simple courtesy demands that if you invite someone into your home, you don’t insult them once they are there. You don’t lie, and you don’t alter your teachings or beliefs, but there’s nothing wrong with couching truth in terms that do NOT deliberately insult others.

Non-Catholics attending Catholic schools have to realize that Catholicism WILL be taught as truth over all other faiths, and that it will be priviledged. It should be. These are Catholic schools. However, the Catholic schools have also chosen to accept non-Catholic students–and their parent’s money…and thus have an obligation to be polite. Not subservient, not “bending to their wishes,” but polite. Not 'you are a heretic and are going to hell," but “we believe this…you may believe that, but since this IS a Catholic school, we are going to teach this, not that.”

Not political correctness gone amuck–just–common courtesy.

 

[emeraldcoast]

You commented on the Catholic schools “taking your check” in a previous post also, but I don’t see any such comment concerning the Episcopal or private schools. Why is it noteworthy that the Catholic school “took your check”?

Well…lets just say at the Private and Episcopal schools we all paid the same tuition. At the Catholic School, my two children’s tuition was equal to that of four Catholic childrens. More money for the school when non-Catholic kids entered the school with keeping class size down but still bringing in more money. All schools want their checks. At the Catholic School having non-Catholics were a bonus–I hope that makes sense.

God Bless!

 

[jmcrae]

I agree with this. If the parent disagrees with the teachings of the Catholic Church, they can have their child enroll in a public school instead of a Catholic school.

That’s what I think, too. If we can’t teach our children the Catholic faith in a Catholic school, then where on earth are they supposed to receive the teaching?

It seems to me that an amalgamation of schools is in order, if they can’t get enough Catholic students to fill their Catholic schools. Either that, or steps need to be taken so that Catholic children can go to the school.

 

[emeraldcoast]

That’s what I think, too. If we can’t teach our children the Catholic faith in a Catholic school, then where on earth are they supposed to receive the teaching?

It seems to me that an amalgamation of schools is in order, if they can’t get enough Catholic students to fill their Catholic schools. Either that, or steps need to be taken so that Catholic children can go to the school.

Many areas do not have the option of a merger with another parish school. In my area, the closest Catholic School is at least a hour away. I guess that you could shut them both down and split the difference on the commute.

God Bless!

 

[twopekinguys]

I didn’t see that. Perhaps I see it through a different lens than you do, but I didn’t see that. Using the words 'belief differences" for instance, rather than “You are heretics!” is not downplaying Catholicism. Downplaying Catholicism would be…NOT teaching Catholic principles when they come into conflict with non-Catholic beliefs. She certainly did not advocate that.

I beleive that item #7 made it rather clear that she did not expect Catholics not to teach Catholicism; quite the contrary.

However, simple courtesy demands that if you invite someone into your home, you don’t insult them once they are there. You don’t lie, and you don’t alter your teachings or beliefs, but there’s nothing wrong with couching truth in terms that do NOT deliberately insult others.

Non-Catholics attending Catholic schools have to realize that Catholicism WILL be taught as truth over all other faiths, and that it will be priviledged. It should be. These are Catholic schools. However, the Catholic schools have also chosen to accept non-Catholic students–and their parent’s money…and thus have an obligation to be polite. Not subservient, not “bending to their wishes,” but polite. Not 'you are a heretic and are going to hell," but “we believe this…you may believe that, but since this IS a Catholic school, we are going to teach this, not that.”

Not political correctness gone amuck–just–common courtesy.

You are right, inviting a person into your home, you should show them respect, and courtesy. However, the other side of that coin is. As a guest, you respect the householder, and the rules of their home.

If I went to visit a Jewish Rabbi, I wouldn’t bring a roast pork to the potluck.

Reading the OP’s other thread “snubbed”, it is obvious this person is looking for political correctness, and to be fawned over. In this thread alone, one of his/her points was “welcome everyone, or no one” with regard to non-Catholics in attendance. (point 2 I believe). The other thread, “snubbed” talked about not being recognized by the pastor for their efforts regarding fundraising, and implied it was because he/she is not Catholic.

Sorry, but I see a pattern.

 

[gcnuss]

Just a few thoughts from my own experience.

First, my three daughters received at least part of their education in Catholic schools. While this was in the days before I entered the ministry, my wife was the Director of Christian Education at the Lutheran church of which we were members.

Second, we knew from the start that our children would be in religious education that would be Catholic in content. That was never a problem. It augmented the religious education they received each week in Sunday School. We would discuss with them any questions they had about why Catholics believed or did some things differently. We did our best to be respectful of Catholic teachings while doing so.

Third, if we had it to do over again we wouldn’t change anything. Of course we aren’t likely to have to consider that since our child-rearing years are long behind us.

 

[TobyLue]

Only a Catholic can be properly termed a heretic. The term does not apply to non-Catholics and no one should be using it to describe non-Catholics.

All Protestants are heretics, but we must be careful to differentiate between formal and material heretics. They are not “Formal Heretics” since they were brought up without the fullness of truth and sincerely believe they are teaching “The Truth”. In this sense they are just “material Heretics” through no fault of their own. Those who know The Truths of the Catholic Church and then go out and preach contrary to those Truths are Formal Heretics, but Protestants could be considered invincibly ignorant. We must understand that Protestantism as a whole is a heresy but many are not aware and are truly attempting to teach the truth as they have learned it; albeit deficient.
We cannot expect Catholic Schools to water down their teachings of the Truth as to not offend non-Catholics. I know when my son was attending Catholic schools, elementary, middle and high, there were many non-Catholics especially in High School. At no time did the religion classes water down their teachings. Should they have watered down teaching about Jesus as the Saviour of the world because there were some Muslims and Jews in school?
Non Catholic parents were made aware that they were enrolling their children in a Catholic School and thus they would be exposed to Catholic Teachings and would also attend Mass. In his high school there were some non-catholic teachers who had been teaching there for some 20 years. There never was a problem with them and they also attended Mass with the rest of the school and the other teachers.
Everybody knew the priests and there was never a problem with non-catholic addressing them as “Father”.

 

[SyCarl]

I think a potential problem exists for Catholic schools where they are publicly funded. In Ontario, for example, Catholic schools receive the same funding from the government as the public schools. Once you accept public money, in my view, you water down the rights of how you deal with non-Catholics in the school. It is different of course where the schools are not tax supported.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Why can’t Lutherans provide educational options in your area?

I noted that you all ignored Yankee Doodle’s post. Too bad for you all. To ingore reality that way, and get sucked into a thread like this Lutheran posted.

 

[Lutheranteach]

I would think if someone attends a catholic school they must adhere to its rules. It’s not, after all, a publicly funded school. It has no legal obligation to accommodate the religious practices of other faiths (nor should they). How a religious school chooses to integrate children from other faiths (and whether or not they will even accept children from other faiths) is a discretionary matter. This goes directly to our concept of religious freedom in this country (and arguably our right of assembly).

Ah, but therein lies the rub. Once a Catholic school has decided to accept those using vouchers it has become, to some degree, publicly funded. The academic text books in many Catholic schools are “on loan” from the area public schools, paid for with taxpayer money making the academic program to some extent publicly funded. Transportation via public school busses or reduced fees on public transportation, taxpayer funded.

I never in my post said that non-Catholics in a Catholic school should not be held to the same academic standards and noted that they could and should be expected to fully participate to the point where the school or their own faith says they cannot.

I just think that when 1 in 5 parish schools is dying off and it many not be something that has to happen.

 

[jmcrae]

Something that surprised me was that the second graders were having to go to their home parish and attend CCD for making their First Communion and First Confession. They were not making these as a class at school. I would of been ticked if I was sending my child to a Catholic School and had to send them to CCD as well. You would think that a Catholic student would be fully prepared on these Sacraments in the Catholic School.

1. The Sacraments of Initiation and Healing are Sacraments of the Church; not Sacraments of the School. School is important, but it isn’t what the children are being initiated into, or being healed by, when they receive the Sacraments of First Holy Communion, Penance, and Confirmation. It is appropriate for Sacramental Preparation to take place in the parish because that is the priest and community with whom the child will be receiving his or her Sacraments. The Sacraments are properly administered by the child’s own parish priest; not the teacher at the school, even if he happens to also be a priest.
2. Children attending Catholic schools would attend Sacramental Preparation classes at their parish; not CCD. CCD is Religion classes for children attending non-Catholic schools, and it is completely inappropriate to ask kids attending Catholic schools to go to that, as well.

I think a great deal of good could be done, if we could get all of the kids who are attending CCD to actually fill the extra spaces in the Catholic schools that for some reason seem to be going to non-Catholics, so that CCD wouldn’t even be on the table for discussion, and so that there wouldn’t be quite so many non-Catholics in our Catholic schools sitting there getting offended by our teachings on morality, ecclesiology, and discipline of the Sacraments.

 

[jmcrae]

Ah, but therein lies the rub. Once a Catholic school has decided to accept those using vouchers it has become, to some degree, publicly funded.

In my province, all Catholic schools are publicly funded, by Catholic taxpayer dollars.

This doesn’t prevent the Bishop from overseeing the schools, or making regulations around how to provide Catholic content not only in Religion classes but also with regard to the character and tone of school life in general.

 

[ibkc]

Well…lets just say at the Private and Episcopal schools we all paid the same tuition. At the Catholic School, my two children’s tuition was equal to that of four Catholic childrens. More money for the school when non-Catholic kids entered the school with keeping class size down but still bringing in more money. All schools want their checks. At the Catholic School having non-Catholics were a bonus–I hope that makes sense.

I think you misunderstand a few things. Catholic school administrators are not cackling with glee because the sight of non-Catholics puts dollar signs in their eyes. In the US, diocesan Catholic schools are largely funded by the diocese and by the parishes the schools are attached to. That means they are paid for by the giving of Catholics. Parish members whether they have children or not voluntarily give money to help the school run so that Catholic families, especially ones with many children, can get a tuition break. Requiring non-Catholics to pay a higher rate of tuition makes sense in this case because all they are doing is making up for the shortfall they’d have by letting in non-Catholics at the Catholic rate.

 

[crazzeto]

Ah, but therein lies the rub. Once a Catholic school has decided to accept those using vouchers it has become, to some degree, publicly funded. The academic text books in many Catholic schools are “on loan” from the area public schools, paid for with taxpayer money making the academic program to some extent publicly funded. Transportation via public school busses or reduced fees on public transportation, taxpayer funded.

I never in my post said that non-Catholics in a Catholic school should not be held to the same academic standards and noted that they could and should be expected to fully participate to the point where the school or their own faith says they cannot.

I just think that when 1 in 5 parish schools is dying off and it many not be something that has to happen.

No it’s really not something that has to happen, Catholic schools are in place to teach the faith, our faith isn’t Proestantism and it shouldn’t be blurred to suggest that “well they’re all OK, we’re all OK, there’s really no right, nor is there really and wrong let’s all just live together”. I’m sorry, no that’s not a faith worth living, certainly not one worth dieing for. And if your faith isn’t worth dieing for, then what is it worth?

I’m sorry, but your suggestions are terrible. Let me ask you this, what would you think if I suggested all Lutheran schools (and lets not kid our selves, they’re struggling too) that are around should, in the interests of serving non-christians and non-lutherans, de-lutheranize their schools, and perhaps even start de-christianize them? Would you be ok with that?

 

[emeraldcoast]

1. The Sacraments of Initiation and Healing are Sacraments of the Church; not Sacraments of the School. School is important, but it isn’t what the children are being initiated into, or being healed by, when they receive the Sacraments of First Holy Communion, Penance, and Confirmation. It is appropriate for Sacramental Preparation to take place in the parish because that is the priest and community with whom the child will be receiving his or her Sacraments. The Sacraments are properly administered by the child’s own parish priest; not the teacher at the school, even if he happens to also be a priest.
2. Children attending Catholic schools would attend Sacramental Preparation classes at their parish; not CCD. CCD is Religion classes for children attending non-Catholic schools, and it is completely inappropriate to ask kids attending Catholic schools to go to that, as well.

I think a great deal of good could be done, if we could get all of the kids who are attending CCD to actually fill the extra spaces in the Catholic schools that for some reason seem to be going to non-Catholics, so that CCD wouldn’t even be on the table for discussion, and so that there wouldn’t be quite so many non-Catholics in our Catholic schools sitting there getting offended by our teachings on morality, ecclesiology, and discipline of the Sacraments.

Are you telling me that in the past, that children attending a Catholic School did not make their First Communion/First Confession with their school classmates in the school parish Church?

God Bless!

 

[jmcrae]

Are you telling me that in the past, that children attending a Catholic School did not make their First Communion/First Confession with their school classmates in the school parish Church?

God Bless!

This was one of the abuses that was occurring quite frequently, and it actually has taken a very long time to correct it. Up until a couple of years ago, we still had teachers at one of our parish schools who thought it was their role to do Sacramental Preparation for First Holy Communion, and they were always trying to schedule First Holy Communion Masses in their school gym.

Up until relatively recently, we kept having to explain it to them, over and over and over and over again, that they can’t be doing that - the kids are to receive their preparation and their Sacrament at the Church, not at the school, because it is a Sacrament of Initiation into the Church; not into the school.