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emeraldcoast
Guest
Can you please define Sacrament of Initiation?? Baptism is what I think of as a Sacrament of Initiation. Thanks!
God Bless!
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God Bless!
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1ke
Guest
The three Sacraments of Initiation are Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist.
J
jmcrae
Guest
The Sacraments of Initiation are how we become fully united to Christ in His Body. In Baptism, our sins are washed away. In Confirmation, we receive the strengthening of the Holy Spirit. In Holy Communion, we are physically united to Christ in His body and blood, soul and divinity.
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dachsiemom
Guest
Ah, but therein lies the rub. Once a Catholic school has decided to accept those using vouchers it has become, to some degree, publicly funded. The academic text books in many Catholic schools are “on loan” from the area public schools, paid for with taxpayer money making the academic program to some extent publicly funded. Transportation via public school busses or reduced fees on public transportation, taxpayer funded.
In reference to the OP, Cleveland public schools are rated very poorly and it is true that many inner city Catholic schools accept vouchers. The voucher recipients in return benefit from the academic benefits offered by the Catholic schools. I understand parents wanting to take advantage of the voucher programs - I would too if in the same circumstance.
Parents who pay out of pocket tuition at the Catholic schools, or any private school, also are paying taxes that benefit public schools. I don’t see an issue with school books on loan or using public school transportation. The state is saving money as it is by not supporting the Catholic students in the public school - those who don’t qualify for vouchers.
I also feel that Protestant students are guests and should respect Catholic teaching. Catholic schools should in no way provide a watered down Catholic experience for the benefit of non Catholic students. If for some unfortunate reason, I had my nieces (Lutheran) living with me, they would attend the nearby suburban Catholic school and I would pay out of pocket tuition, as the suburban public school also has a bit to be desired. I would not expect them to become Catholic unless they wanted to do so and would see they continue with attending Lutheran church and confirmation.
As for the comment of having difficulty calling the priest “Father”, I don;t see an issue. I worked at an orthodox Jewish facility and I wouldn’t of thought of calling the Rabbi by any other title - or not respecting their customs and beliefs while in the workplace. I felt fortunate to have the job and likewise, non-Catholic students should feel fortunate to have the advantages of a Catholic school.
As for options, other Christian schools are in the area, along eith some Lutheran schools.
In reference to the OP, Cleveland public schools are rated very poorly and it is true that many inner city Catholic schools accept vouchers. The voucher recipients in return benefit from the academic benefits offered by the Catholic schools. I understand parents wanting to take advantage of the voucher programs - I would too if in the same circumstance.
Parents who pay out of pocket tuition at the Catholic schools, or any private school, also are paying taxes that benefit public schools. I don’t see an issue with school books on loan or using public school transportation. The state is saving money as it is by not supporting the Catholic students in the public school - those who don’t qualify for vouchers.
I also feel that Protestant students are guests and should respect Catholic teaching. Catholic schools should in no way provide a watered down Catholic experience for the benefit of non Catholic students. If for some unfortunate reason, I had my nieces (Lutheran) living with me, they would attend the nearby suburban Catholic school and I would pay out of pocket tuition, as the suburban public school also has a bit to be desired. I would not expect them to become Catholic unless they wanted to do so and would see they continue with attending Lutheran church and confirmation.
As for the comment of having difficulty calling the priest “Father”, I don;t see an issue. I worked at an orthodox Jewish facility and I wouldn’t of thought of calling the Rabbi by any other title - or not respecting their customs and beliefs while in the workplace. I felt fortunate to have the job and likewise, non-Catholic students should feel fortunate to have the advantages of a Catholic school.
As for options, other Christian schools are in the area, along eith some Lutheran schools.
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dianaiad
Guest
…and that’s fine, but it is still true that non-Catholics pay more tuition than Catholics do, and as far as I’m aware, Catholic students don’t have to prove that their parents are contributing to the school in addition to paying tuition. If they did, that would BE 'tuition."
So if the schools accept non-Catholics, and charge them more (for whatever reason) then they need to treat those students with courtesy. NOT priviledge. NOT deferring to a different religious faith or idea, but at least refraining from direct, deliberate insult.
You know, like teaching Catholicism straight out, without worrying about what other people believe…and if a student questions something, say “well, I understand that other beliefs might be different, but this is what we believe, and this is what we teach. You might want to ask your parents about this,” rather than “NO, you heretic, you are wrong and your’re going to hell!”
I mean, that’s not too much to ask, is it?
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ibkc
Guest
This is incorrect, at least in my archdiocese. Here, the diocesan schools have a scale. The lowest tuition is made available to families who are active members of the parish that the school is attached to. “Active” means a regular monetary contributor among other things and the family’s envelope number is known to the school. Other, higher tuition rates are given to parish members who aren’t active, and to Catholics who don’t belong to the parish at all.
And no one has produced any evidence whatsoever that non-Catholic children are treated discourteously, so as far as I am concerned, it’s not even relevant.
And again, no one has produced any evidence whatsoever that this is some kind of common practice. If non-Catholics who send their children to Catholic schools believe that it is discourteous to teach the faith as we see it, then maybe they should consider different educational arrangements.
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kalt
Guest
It sounds like those people need to find a non-Catholic school. Would you expect Jews to toe your line if you sent your kid to a Jewish school? Rabbi? You won’t use that word? Then find another school.
My son went to school with the son of a non-Catholic. When asked what she thought of the school Mass, she said, with attitude, “It was very Catholic.” (Emphasis hers.) Another man asked her, “It’s a Catholic Mass at a Catholic Cathedral, for a Catholic School. What did you expect?”
Makes one wonder.
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Lutheranteach
Guest
I Think you just said what I’ve been trying to get at.…and that’s fine, but it is still true that non-Catholics pay more tuition than Catholics do, and as far as I’m aware, Catholic students don’t have to prove that their parents are contributing to the school in addition to paying tuition. If they did, that would BE 'tuition."
So if the schools accept non-Catholics, and charge them more (for whatever reason) then they need to treat those students with courtesy. NOT priviledge. NOT deferring to a different religious faith or idea, but at least refraining from direct, deliberate insult.
You know, like teaching Catholicism straight out, without worrying about what other people believe…and if a student questions something, say “well, I understand that other beliefs might be different, but this is what we believe, and this is what we teach. You might want to ask your parents about this,” rather than “NO, you heretic, you are wrong and your’re going to hell!”
I mean, that’s not too much to ask, is it?
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StrawberryJam
Guest
Dianaaid is totally wrong about tuition structure in my area (Midwest USA). There is a difference, catholic or not on tuition depending on your monetary contributions during the year, which one must make on the scale they set in order to get the lower rate. If you are a member, and catholic yet do not meet this number, you pay more.
Non catholics also pay that rate, the same as if they were catholic but not meeting the minumum monetary contributions for that year.
But, each diocese I suppose does it their own way. Not to mention what each country does differently.
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dianaiad
Guest
OK, I sit corrected on that…
I don’t imagine that there are, actually. Certainly I don’t think anyone has mentioned that they have been on this thread. Of course, I’m taking a middle stance here; I’m saying that Catholics have the absolute right to teach Catholicism only, and that non-Catholics who attend need to understand that. On the other hand, I’m also saying that since the Catholics invited the non-Catholics IN, they should be polite. Not subservient, or accepting of other beliefs, just…polite. It was a response to posts here, not to any actual example. At least, I thought so.
I believe you are correct about that. Those who attend Catholic school have to know that it is a CATHOLIC school. The only thing I am saying is that it is quite possible to be a Catholic school–and to treat non-Catholic students with respect for their faiths.
“Respect” doesn’t mean ‘preference,’ just–you don’t call 'em 'heretics." I don’t think that’s too much kowtowing, m’self…
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twopekinguys
Guest
Well said.
What it boils down to is this.
If the parents are concerned that little Johnie/Janie is going to be called a heretic for believing something different that what the Catholic Church teaches in a Catholic school, Why put little Johnie/Janie in that situation to begin with? If they encounter something being taught that is different that what they believe, that is where the parents talk to their children, and explain the differences. That is the parents responsibilty, not the school’s.
In any given community, I am sure the Catholic school is not the **only **educational institution around. There are public schools, there are private schools. There is also home schooling.
If you are choosing a Catholic school because it is the closest one, and you don’t have to drive your kid to school, that is **your **choice. If you are choosing a Catholic school over a public school, that is **your **choice.
Don’t expect the school to change merely because you choose not to take advantage of other facilities in your area. Thats like going to the nearest car dealership and expecting them to sell you an airplane.
As for non Catholics paying a higher tuition. Look at it like other educational facilities do. It our area it is called “out of district” tuition. If you choose to enroll your child in a school that is outside of your school district, you pay an “out of district” tuition, which is higher.
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kalt
Guest
You can compare this to in-sate and out-of-state tuition at colleges. Taxes support the school, and in-state students (or their parents) pay those taxes. The church supports the school, and church members (Catholics) support the church. So it makes sense that they would pay less than someone who doesn’t support the Church.
I’m not sure if it works exactly that way here, but I do know that there is financial assistance for those who can’t afford the tuition, so I’m guessing that they aren’t telling the poorer people that since they can’t afford to contribute more to the church, they’ll have to pay more for tuition–and them give them financial assistance. There must be more to that formula.
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kalt
Guest
Well said.
What it boils down to is this.
If the parents are concerned that little Johnie/Janie is going to be called a heretic for believing something different that what the Catholic Church teaches in a Catholic school, Why put little Johnie/Janie in that situation to begin with?** If they encounter something being taught that is different that what they believe, that is where the parents talk to their children, and explain the differences. That is the parents responsibilty, not the school’s**.
Very well-said.
Expecting the Catholic school to teach Catholicism and then to also explain why any non-Catholics at the desks shouldn’t beleive what was just taught is ludicrous.
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emeraldcoast
Guest
twopekinguys;5965770:
, Why put little Johnie/Janie in that situation to begin with?** If they encounter something being taught that is different that what they believe, that is where the parents talk to their children, and explain the differences. That is the parents responsibilty, not the school’s**.
Very well-said.
Expecting the Catholic school to teach Catholicism and then to also explain why any non-Catholics at the desks shouldn’t beleive what was just taught is ludicrous.
I agree with you that in introducing why other Christians do not believe as the RCC teaches may actually confuse the Catholic kids. It is up to us non-Catholic parents to explain to our children why we don’t believe all that the Catholic Church teaches and show them why we believe what we believe in our home Churches.
If you are sending your child to a Catholic school and do not think that they will be taught the Catholic faith your head is in the sand.
From the OP’s orginial post–
Yes, it is proper to call a Catholic priest “Father Mike” like I would call a Lutheran minister “Pastor Gary”.
God Bless!
B
Bill_Pick
Guest
I was having some health problems years ago and My daughter call a baptisn preach to the hosp. for me because she was confused…Well to make a long story short he and I have been friends for 15 years and to this day I call him Father and he call me Bill
Did I get a little off thread,Sorry
Did I get a little off thread,Sorry
Pastor,
I didn’t mean to imply there weren’t good Lutherans there, only that it (Lutheranism) didn’t seem, when we visited (twice), to be the priority. And I certainly didn’t mean to offend. I guess I didn’t phrase what I meant very well. I’m sorry. And it is also true that there are some great schools within the ELCA college system. I know, I graduated from one.
Jon
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Lutheranteach
Guest
That choice is taken out of a lot of parents hands these days. If you are in a district that is failing and on what they call in Ohio “Academic Emergency” you are given a voucher that is good for a certain dollar amount toward tuition. Not all private schools accept them. Catholic Schools, at least in my area, usually do. The one non-religious private school in the area that does accept vouchers costs $18K with voucher money $24K without.I didn’t pay that for my masters program. There are a few religious schools in the area. Frankly, their academics are as bad, if not worse, than what many public school kids are leaving and most of these schools have been open for less than three years. So what is the option? Another public school. Most in NE Ohio have what is called closed enrollment. If you don’t live in the district, you may not attend. So, it’s Catholic School. I have been thrilled with both on the academic level and the discipline level.
We, have however at the school my son attends, had issues with two teachers, both of whom have been fired in the past month. Both for some questionable grading (kids of long time friends getting grades they did not earn) as well as some issues we’ve discussed in this thread. I will the taking over he 8th grade as the English (language arts) teacher. To the shock of some, I will also be teaching religion with the blessing of the parish priest and Director of Religious Instruction, and we are in agreement I will recuse myself on certain days and put my religion class in the hands of the principal or DRI.
Let the abject horror of many here begin.
J
jmcrae
Guest
For me personally, I would find it hard to teach something I don’t believe. I think I would experience some kind of dissociative personality disorder. I think it would also be very difficult to not be able to share my own personal experiences, by way of illustrating various principles (especially if I had no personal experience of what I was teaching about).
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gcnuss
Guest
Jon,
I understand where you are coming from. Things have certainly changed in Lutheran colleges over the years. When my wife attended Capital University back in the early 60’s
there was mandatory chapel attendance. That disappeared long ago, a victim of burgeoning insistence on individual rights regardless of whether or not one had entered college with knowledge of the requirement. Another factor is the growth in the number of non-Lutheran students attending Lutheran colleges, such that in many Lutherans are a distinct minority. Sad to say, contemporary culture triumphs all too often.
W
Writer
Guest
Okay…first a little background. I attended Catholic schools as a kid, and I was teased pretty mercilessly as a Protestant. The teasing was largely because I was Protestant, I suppose, but most likely the bullies would have homed in other differences to attack, if that one had not presented itself more prominently. The key here is that I never expected to receive special treatment for not being Catholic. In my particular case, teachers could probably have been a little more conscious of what was going on, but, as far as issues of the faith are concerned, what appears to be suggested on this thread is that elements of the faith be watered down so as not to offend. I disagree. It’s a Catholic school. and it should behave as a Catholic school.
If there are more gracious ways in which information can be conveyed, that’s fine, but to do anything more than to demonstrate a graciousness (which should already be present) is to want a Catholic school to become a Lutheran school. I know when I was Lutheran, they certainly didn’t hold back much on what they believed to be wrong with the Catholics. To be insincere in this way is to do a disservice to the Catholic children–as well as the Protestant kids who need to understand the differences themselves. For me, the seeds planted as a Protestant in a Catholic school really took root a few years ago–resulting in our crossing the Tiber. We should never underestimate the ability of God to work miracles–even out of otherwise difficult experiences.
If there are more gracious ways in which information can be conveyed, that’s fine, but to do anything more than to demonstrate a graciousness (which should already be present) is to want a Catholic school to become a Lutheran school. I know when I was Lutheran, they certainly didn’t hold back much on what they believed to be wrong with the Catholics. To be insincere in this way is to do a disservice to the Catholic children–as well as the Protestant kids who need to understand the differences themselves. For me, the seeds planted as a Protestant in a Catholic school really took root a few years ago–resulting in our crossing the Tiber. We should never underestimate the ability of God to work miracles–even out of otherwise difficult experiences.
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