Dealing with non-Catholics in Catholic Schools

[jmcrae]

You know, like teaching Catholicism straight out, without worrying about what other people believe…and if a student questions something, say “well, I understand that other beliefs might be different, but this is what we believe, and this is what we teach. You might want to ask your parents about this,” rather than “NO, you heretic, you are wrong and your’re going to hell!”

I mean, that’s not too much to ask, is it?

I strongly doubt that any Catholic teacher is calling individual students “heretics” - rather, in the lesson on Heresies, when the kids are asked to identify and define the 17 forms of heresy, the non-Catholic student would realize, while defining certain ones, “Hey - wait a second - that’s what they teach at my church.”

But it wouldn’t be the Catholic teacher’s job to say, “Oh, well - that’s not really a heresy,” since obviously it is. Rather, it would be up to the student’s parents to explain why they believe the Catholic teaching is incorrect.

 

[JonNC]

Jon,

I understand where you are coming from. Things have certainly changed in Lutheran colleges over the years. When my wife attended Capital University back in the early 60’s
there was mandatory chapel attendance. That disappeared long ago, a victim of burgeoning insistence on individual rights regardless of whether or not one had entered college with knowledge of the requirement. Another factor is the growth in the number of non-Lutheran students attending Lutheran colleges, such that in many Lutherans are a distinct minority. Sad to say, contemporary culture triumphs all too often.

Pastor, contemporary culture and perhaps tuition fees. But to nominalize our Lutheranness on our colleges may not be the best response to the diverse faith communions in attendance. Being honest about who we are, and yet charitable and welcoming to those who are not what we are, probably speaks a better message to others than hiding our Confession behind politically correct diversity. I think this is the message some of our Catholic siblings here are making about their schools, and I frankly agree with them. Had my daughter gone to Belmont Abbey, I would not have expected that school to back off its catholicity. I would have just expected them to be welcoming and not offensive.

Jon

PS: I’m sending you an anecdotal story about required chapel attendance at my Lutheran college via PM.

 

[ibkc]

That choice is taken out of a lot of parents hands these days. If you are in a district that is failing and on what they call in Ohio “Academic Emergency” you are given a voucher that is good for a certain dollar amount toward tuition. Not all private schools accept them. Catholic Schools, at least in my area, usually do. The one non-religious private school in the area that does accept vouchers costs $18K with voucher money $24K without.I didn’t pay that for my masters program. There are a few religious schools in the area. Frankly, their academics are as bad, if not worse, than what many public school kids are leaving and most of these schools have been open for less than three years. So what is the option? Another public school. Most in NE Ohio have what is called closed enrollment. If you don’t live in the district, you may not attend. So, it’s Catholic School. I have been thrilled with both on the academic level and the discipline level.

I totally understand your frustration with your local schools, but I fail to understand why this gives you the idea that since you feel you have no other choice but to send your child to Catholic school, you now have the right to dictate how Catholic schools teach the Catholic faith.

I will the taking over he 8th grade as the English (language arts) teacher. To the shock of some, I will also be teaching religion with the blessing of the parish priest and Director of Religious Instruction, and we are in agreement I will recuse myself on certain days and put my religion class in the hands of the principal or DRI.

They must either really be hurting for teachers, or they have no idea how you actually feel about Catholicism.

 

[Blueberry]

I’m sorry, but I find the list posted by the OP to be absolutely ridiculous. Before you water down the Catholic faith to “save” a Catholic school, you should seriously think about why you even have a Catholic school. I’d rather a Catholic school be closed than follow anything on the list. Yes, I’m serious. And if anyone, Catholic or non-Catholic, is unhappy with a Catholic school teaching and living the Catholic Faith in its entirety, they shouldn’t have their children attend.

 

[kalt]

That choice is taken out of a lot of parents hands these days. If you are in a district that is failing and on what they call in Ohio “Academic Emergency” you are given a voucher that is good for a certain dollar amount toward tuition. Not all private schools accept them. Catholic Schools, at least in my area, usually do. The one non-religious private school in the area that does accept vouchers costs $18K with voucher money $24K without.I didn’t pay that for my masters program. There are a few religious schools in the area. Frankly, their academics are as bad, if not worse, than what many public school kids are leaving and most of these schools have been open for less than three years. So what is the option? Another public school. Most in NE Ohio have what is called closed enrollment. If you don’t live in the district, you may not attend. So, it’s Catholic School. I have been thrilled with both on the academic level and the discipline level.

We, have however at the school my son attends, had issues with two teachers, both of whom have been fired in the past month. Both for some questionable grading (kids of long time friends getting grades they did not earn) as well as some issues we’ve discussed in this thread. I will the taking over he 8th grade as the English (language arts) teacher. To the shock of some, I will also be teaching religion with the blessing of the parish priest and Director of Religious Instruction, and we are in agreement I will recuse myself on certain days and put my religion class in the hands of the principal or DRI.

Let the abject horror of many here begin.

Are you willing (and able) to explain the Catholic faith with conviction? When a Catholic student asks a question and seems to prefer a prefer a Protestant understanding, are you going to be able to steer him back to where he belongs? Will you be able to do it with the conviction it takes to make the child understand that you are teaching the truth and not just what someone else is telling you that you should teach? And what if you happen to agree with the child on that particular topic?

I guess I’m asking if you are a very good actor and if you can pull this off.

 

[StrawberryJam]

The catholic schools pay way less than public. I can see a teacher working at a catholic school because of their commitment to their faith. A non catholic taking a job in a catholic school, either can’t get a job anywhere else (and that should scare you guys a bit) or they have an agenda and dont mind the pay cut.

 

[dianaiad]

The catholic schools pay way less than public. I can see a teacher working at a catholic school because of their commitment to their faith. A non catholic taking a job in a catholic school, either can’t get a job anywhere else (and that should scare you guys a bit) or they have an agenda and dont mind the pay cut.

…and why should that 'scare you guys a bit?" Try finding a job teaching in California. Please do not automatically assume that a teacher who has problems finding a job is, therefore, a bad teacher. Today’s economy has hit EVERY area.

Last spring, for instance, the school districts in my area laid off 20% of the teaching staff…a total of 3000 teachers. I don’t even want to think about what happened to teachers in Los Angeles.

It could very well be that right now a Catholic school hiring a non-Catholic teacher could be getting a highly qualified, extremely well educated and committed teacher would would rather take the pay cut than stop teaching…and THAT shouldn’t scare you. What should scare you is that most teachers who lived through this cut/layoff/job loss are LEAVING THE PROFESSION and working elswhere–where there is a great deal less stress and a lot more money.

 

[StrawberryJam]

…and why should that 'scare you guys a bit?" Try finding a job teaching in California. Please do not automatically assume that a teacher who has problems finding a job is, therefore, a bad teacher. Today’s economy has hit EVERY area.

Last spring, for instance, the school districts in my area laid off 20% of the teaching staff…a total of 3000 teachers. I don’t even want to think about what happened to teachers in Los Angeles.

It could very well be that right now a Catholic school hiring a non-Catholic teacher could be getting a highly qualified, extremely well educated and committed teacher would would rather take the pay cut than stop teaching…and THAT shouldn’t scare you. What should scare you is that most teachers who lived through this cut/layoff/job loss are LEAVING THE PROFESSION and working elswhere–where there is a great deal less stress and a lot more money.

Where I live- there are PLENTY of catholic teachers willing to work in catholic schools because their children are attending them, and they are not the sole bread winner in their family, and can do it.

So, if there are plenty of catholic teachers willing to work, and your parish gets a non catholic- I would be worried. Very worried.

I don’t care how bad the job market is, if you are a christian of principle- you should not be doing something you are not passionate about (this is one reason why many schools falter- no passion) And, if the total experience is to benefit the most then everyone should be promoting the core cirriculum. And, in catholic schools the faith is normally listed in the mission statement as part of the core.

 

[dianaiad]

Where I live- there are PLENTY of catholic teachers willing to work in catholic schools because their children are attending them, and they are not the sole bread winner in their family, and can do it.

So, if there are plenty of catholic teachers willing to work, and your parish gets a non catholic- I would be worried. Very worried.

I don’t care how bad the job market is, if you are a christian of principle- you should not be doing something you are not passionate about (this is one reason why many schools falter- no passion) And, if the total experience is to benefit the most then everyone should be promoting the core cirriculum. And, in catholic schools the faith is normally listed in the mission statement as part of the core.

That doesn’t make a lot of sense in terms of what you wrote. After all, a non-Catholic teacher in a Catholic school isn’t there because of a LACK of passion for teaching. That was my point; he or she would rather take the pay cut and teach in a religious school that does not quite march whith his or her religious beliefs than to stop teaching.

I don’t know your area. However, I do know that highly qualified teachers pretty much everywhere in the USA have to have Bachelor’s degrees and a teaching certificate…many, if not most, of them also have master’s degrees in addition to the teaching certificates.

I am also aware that the local Catholic high school does indeed have non-Catholic teachers; it, unlike other private schools (the law in California states that teachers in private schools don’t need teaching certificates; in fact, they don’t even need BA’s…and THAT should scare you SPITLESS!) absolutely requires the California teaching certificate. As a result, it is a highly respected school, academically.

Frankly, were I a Catholic, I would be far more concerned that the schools I send my kids too were more concerned about making certain that their teachers were Catholic than that they were qualified to teach.

After all, there is very little need to teach math through a specifically Catholic lens. The same goes for geology, chemistry and most other sciences. The Vatican, after all, has no problem with biological evolution.

 

[jmcrae]

Frankly, were I a Catholic, I would be far more concerned that the schools I send my kids too were more concerned about making certain that their teachers were Catholic than that they were qualified to teach.

That’s a given - of course they’re qualified to teach. But a Catholic school should be hiring Catholic teachers, because Catholicism is not just a set of beliefs about God - it’s a whole world-view. So is secularism, by the way.

I went to public school, and believe me, science class was less about the scientific method, and more about how hard done by the poor oppressed scientist of the week was, and how superstitious the Church is. Catholic students don’t need that sort of thing in their Catholic school science classes.

 

[emeraldcoast]

Are you willing (and able) to explain the Catholic faith with conviction? When a Catholic student asks a question and seems to prefer a prefer a Protestant understanding, are you going to be able to steer him back to where he belongs? Will you be able to do it with the conviction it takes to make the child understand that you are teaching the truth and not just what someone else is telling you that you should teach? And what if you happen to agree with the child on that particular topic?

I guess I’m asking if you are a very good actor and if you can pull this off.

There are many non-Catholics teaching in the Catholic Schools…

Our daughter’s Kindergarten teacher was Lutheran and she did an excellant job. The Baptist Preschool teacher is the one that taught our daughter how to say the Hail Mary…

God Bless!

 

[dianaiad]

That’s a given - of course they’re qualified to teach.

What makes that a 'given?" In most areas private schools don’t need to hire teachers with teaching certificates, or even BA’s. So…how do you know that they are qualified to teach?

[But a Catholic school should be hiring Catholic teachers, because Catholicism is not just a set of beliefs about God - it’s a whole world-view. So is secularism, by the way.

I don’t disagree with you, actually. I do believe that Catholic schools SHOULD hire Catholic teachers first. However, once you get to the choice between, say…a qualified math teacher (not Catholic) and an unqualified Catholic, as a parent, which would you prefer the school to hire?

OF course not…and neither did your public school science class. Would it be better, do you think, for your Catholic child to be in a science class taught by an incompetant teacher–but who was safely pro-Catholic?*

[/quote]

 

[jmcrae]

What makes that a 'given?" In most areas private schools don’t need to hire teachers with teaching certificates, or even BA’s. So…how do you know that they are qualified to teach?

First of all, Catholic schools are not “private schools” in the ordinary sense - they are still governed by the Schools Act, and are required to hire teachers with accreditation from recognized University programs, with at least a BA in their preferred subject area, and a two-year teaching degree. This is the minimum standard. They not only wouldn’t hire anyone less qualified than that, legally, they can’t.

I don’t disagree with you, actually. I do believe that Catholic schools SHOULD hire Catholic teachers first. However, once you get to the choice between, say…a qualified math teacher (not Catholic) and an unqualified Catholic, as a parent, which would you prefer the school to hire?

Neither - I would prefer that the school continue to advertise the open teaching position, and wait for a qualified Catholic candidate to appear, or else leave the position vacant and combine classes.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Dianaiad,

Where do you get your information on catholic science teachers? Your comment about the teacher being a “parent” causes me to ask what goes on in your head.

I ask you to find a single catholic school that has a parent that is not a qualifyed teacher, teaching science class. subs don’t count either They can simply have a college degree and sub in K-8 here. But, they would be substitues, following the teacher’s lesson plans.

How are Mormon schools handling this? Start a thread about their achievements in the non catholic section. I can’t wait to hear them compared to what catholics have done in this country long before Jospeh Smith was born.

 

[StrawberryJam]

jmcrae said:

Neither - I would prefer that the school continue to advertise the open teaching position, and wait for a qualified Catholic candidate to appear, or else leave the position vacant and combine classes.

To this, I fully agree. I would agree with this statement if we were talking about a catholic getting a teaching job at a Jewish school, or Greek Orthodox school, and so on.

If you can’t find anyone to teach in your schools, of your own faith, in your own community, that is another situation that needs careful thought.

 

[zaffiroborant]

That doesn’t make a lot of sense in terms of what you wrote. After all, a non-Catholic teacher in a Catholic school isn’t there because of a LACK of passion for teaching. That was my point; he or she would rather take the pay cut and teach in a religious school that does not quite march whith his or her religious beliefs than to stop teaching.

I don’t know your area. However, I do know that highly qualified teachers pretty much everywhere in the USA have to have Bachelor’s degrees and a teaching certificate…many, if not most, of them also have master’s degrees in addition to the teaching certificates.

I am also aware that the local Catholic high school does indeed have non-Catholic teachers; it, unlike other private schools (the law in California states that teachers in private schools don’t need teaching certificates; in fact, they don’t even need BA’s…and THAT should scare you SPITLESS!) absolutely requires the California teaching certificate. As a result, it is a highly respected school, academically.

Frankly, were I a Catholic, I would be far more concerned that the schools I send my kids too were more concerned about making certain that their teachers were Catholic than that they were qualified to teach.

After all, there is very little need to teach math through a specifically Catholic lens. The same goes for geology, chemistry and most other sciences. The Vatican, after all, has no problem with biological evolution.

Of course a non-Catholic can teach math and science and English but we are talking about teaching the Catholic faith. Do you really think Catholic parents should not be concerned that a non-Catholic is teaching their children Catholicism? We should just go along with people that tell us that we should not use the words heretic, (I would suppose the word heresy is equally off the table) error, or even Father when addressing our own clergy. I should be happy that a man who has said my churches Tradition, Canon Law and even the Pope are irrelevant, is teaching Catholic children our faith because he has a Masters degree in teaching? Would you agree that one should teach the LDS faith while saying that the LDS scriptures and prophets are irrelevant just because he has an advanced degree? If the LDS were to build grade schools and high schools would they have Baptists or Catholics teaching their children the LDS faith? Why or why not?

I find it a bit odd that you take this view since you have been quite adamant that no one can adequately explain (let alone) teach a religion they are not a member of. After all didn’t you say something to the effect that even the most well intentioned people will not be able to teach someone elses religion, that at some point they will get another faiths doctrine wrong?

And I disagree that Catholic schools should refrain from calling error error, or heresy heresy, change what they call their clergy and ignore their teachings (Tradition, Canon Law, Social Teaching and the Pope) just because people are left with no option other than a Catholic school. If people are sooo concerned with providing a good non-Catholic education, then instead of telling Catholics what to say and what to cite they should put out their own time, talent and money out and provide it themselves.

 

[zaffiroborant]

First of all, Catholic schools are not “private schools” in the ordinary sense - they are still governed by the Schools Act, and are required to hire teachers with accreditation from recognized University programs, with at least a BA in their preferred subject area, and a two-year teaching degree. This is the minimum standard. They not only wouldn’t hire anyone less qualified than that, legally, they can’t.

Neither - I would prefer that the school continue to advertise the open teaching position, and wait for a qualified Catholic candidate to appear, or else leave the position vacant and combine classes.

Why are Catholic schools not considered “private schools” in the ordinary sense?? Does this difference apply to other religious schools, we have three religious schools in town a Baptist a Lutheran and a Catholic do all three have this requirement?

 

[twopekinguys]

That choice is taken out of a lot of parents hands these days. If you are in a district that is failing and on what they call in Ohio “Academic Emergency” you are given a voucher that is good for a certain dollar amount toward tuition. Not all private schools accept them. Catholic Schools, at least in my area, usually do. The one non-religious private school in the area that does accept vouchers costs $18K with voucher money $24K without.I didn’t pay that for my masters program. There are a few religious schools in the area. Frankly, their academics are as bad, if not worse, than what many public school kids are leaving and most of these schools have been open for less than three years. So what is the option? Another public school. Most in NE Ohio have what is called closed enrollment. If you don’t live in the district, you may not attend. So, it’s Catholic School. I have been thrilled with both on the academic level and the discipline level.

We, have however at the school my son attends, had issues with two teachers, both of whom have been fired in the past month. Both for some questionable grading (kids of long time friends getting grades they did not earn) as well as some issues we’ve discussed in this thread. I will the taking over he 8th grade as the English (language arts) teacher. To the shock of some, I will also be teaching religion with the blessing of the parish priest and Director of Religious Instruction, and we are in agreement I will recuse myself on certain days and put my religion class in the hands of the principal or DRI.

Let the abject horror of many here begin.

I totally understand the educational crisis in many areas with schools not meeting academic standards, but…(who didn’t see that coming) Just because you have somewhat limited choices, doesn’t mean the Catholic school should bend to the will of the non Catholic students and parents. You still have other choices available. You are choosing the school.

I also find it interesting that everyone is jumping ship so to speak on the public education system, you included. Since you are a teacher, and I assume you take that responsibility seriously, why don’t you teach in the public school system, and help to correct the problems? After all, A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step right?

I still have a problem with runing away from an issue (education crisis), and finding a safe harbor (Catholic school), then complaining about political correctness.

As far as you teaching Religous Ed. I wouldn’t have a problem with it, but you can bet the first time my child came home and said “My religous Ed teacher said…” and it didn’t agree with the Church’s teachings. We would be having a face to face meeting. If you know what I mean.

 

[emeraldcoast]

Have any of you noticed Catholic Schools closing in your area because of the economy?

God Bless!

 

[dianaiad]

First of all, Catholic schools are not “private schools” in the ordinary sense - they are still governed by the Schools Act, and are required to hire teachers with accreditation from recognized University programs, with at least a BA in their preferred subject area, and a two-year teaching degree. This is the minimum standard. They not only wouldn’t hire anyone less qualified than that, legally, they can’t.

That depends ENTIRELY upon where you are. I’m in California. Here…Catholic schools, like all other private religious schools, may hire whom they please, credentialed or not. In fact, having looked at several Catholic school "salary schedules’ posted on the internet, I find that a good percentage of the teachers are NOT credentialed. In one diocese, which I will use as a typical example (Fresno) they want new teachers to be credentialed, but all they really need is a BA/BS and a passing score on the CBEST. They need to show a plan to get their teaching credential within six years of first hire, but that plan may be extended. Within four years of hire, they must get a “Diocese of Fresno Catechist Certificate.” I don’t have a clue whether one can do that and not be Catholic, but please note: California public schools have the option to hire people who do not have full credentials. They are hired as “interns,” but they must be currently in a credentialling program, and have the credential within TWO years of first hire.

In fact, here are the requirements for the job of PRINCIPAL in the Fresno Diocese schools:

Have a BA from an accredited college or university
Completed the CBEST
No criminal history
Be an active and practicing Roman Catholic
4 years of ‘successful’ teaching experience, preferably in a Catholic school
Be committed to the ministry, philosophy, and goals of Catholic school education.

In other words, a Catholic school principal need only have the minimum qualifications required of a public school subsitute teacher. (The BA/BS and passing the CBEST), be a good Catholic and have taught Catholic school.

Neither - I would prefer that the school continue to advertise the open teaching position, and wait for a qualified Catholic candidate to appear, or else leave the position vacant and combine classes.

That would be one option. It is, however, not always the option taken by the school.