Dealing with non-Catholics in Catholic Schools

[twopekinguys]

Have any of you noticed Catholic Schools closing in your area because of the economy?

God Bless!

Not in our area. We are looking at expansion in some areas.

 

[dianaiad]

Dianaiad,

Where do you get your information on catholic science teachers? Your comment about the teacher being a “parent” causes me to ask what goes on in your head.

Where in the world did I comment about a teacher being a parent? Y’know, if you use the ‘quote’ function on your replies, it would make things easier. I had to go back and look at every post I wrote on this thread, and didn’t see anything even remotely like 'a teacher is a parent."

I DID write this: " I don’t disagree with you, actually. I do believe that Catholic schools SHOULD hire Catholic teachers first. However, once you get to the choice between, say…a qualified math teacher (not Catholic) and an unqualified Catholic, as a parent, which would you prefer the school to hire? "

That is asking who you, as the parent of a student, would prefer that a Catholic school hire. Please note that the “you” in the last clause refers back to “as a parent.” Which means that I was addressing the READER as a parent, not calling the TEACHER a 'parent."

I ask you to find a single catholic school that has a parent that is not a qualifyed teacher, teaching science class. subs don’t count either They can simply have a college degree and sub in K-8 here. But, they would be substitues, following the teacher’s lesson plans.

How are Mormon schools handling this? Start a thread about their achievements in the non catholic section. I can’t wait to hear them compared to what catholics have done in this country long before Jospeh Smith was born.

Both your point and your insult are based upon a misunderstanding of what I wrote.

As to “Mormon” schools…the CoJCoLDS doesn’t have private elementary/high schools in the USA. We have ‘seminary,’ which is additional religious training along with public schools. “Seminaries” require credentialed teachers, even though that is a specific religion class. We have schools elsewhere in the world, where public education is not available. As to our collegesand universities… well…most are tier one schools; pretty good for institutions that have been around less than half the time Yale has.

Most Mormons, if they don’t like the public schools around them, choose to home school.

And frankly, I don’t get the hostility. I’m on the CATHOLIC side in this issue, mostly.

 

[dianaiad]

Of course a non-Catholic can teach math and science and English but we are talking about teaching the Catholic faith.

We WERE? You are moving the goal posts. I was under the impression, from most of the posts here, that this was about the whole of the Catholic school experience. However, if you are talking about the religion teachers only…my point still stands. Catholics should teach Catholicism. Non-Catholics who attend CAtholic school should expect that Catholicism will be taught. However, since the Catholic school invited the non-Catholics in, they should teach Catholicism in a manner that does not, UNNECESSARILY, insult the non-Catholics in their midst. Saying 'this is what is true" should be expected. “You are wrong, you are a heretic and you are headed for hell” is probably not a good idea. For one thing, such an approach is a side issue and a distraction; if you teach Catholicism, TEACH CATHOLICISM. Does it matter what anyone else thinks?

Do you really think Catholic parents should not be concerned that a non-Catholic is teaching their children Catholicism?

Since you moved the goalposts, I’ll move with you. Of course Catholics should teach Catholicism. Z, you know me and my position on this sort of thing well enough by now; I’d be the first person to say that ONLY Catholics should teach Catholicism.

We should just go along with people that tell us that we should not use the words heretic, (I would suppose the word heresy is equally off the table) error, or even Father when addressing our own clergy.

Say what you want to your own clergy. I’m simply saying that telling, say…an 8 year old that he or she is a damned heretic might not be the best approach.

 

[zaffiroborant]

We WERE? You are moving the goal posts. I was under the impression, from most of the posts here, that this was about the whole of the Catholic school experience. However, if you are talking about the religion teachers only…my point still stands. Catholics should teach Catholicism. Non-Catholics who attend CAtholic school should expect that Catholicism will be taught. However, since the Catholic school invited the non-Catholics in, they should teach Catholicism in a manner that does not, UNNECESSARILY, insult the non-Catholics in their midst. Saying 'this is what is true" should be expected. “You are wrong, you are a heretic and you are headed for hell” is probably not a good idea. For one thing, such an approach is a side issue and a distraction; if you teach Catholicism, TEACH CATHOLICISM. Does it matter what anyone else thinks?

Since you moved the goalposts, I’ll move with you. Of course Catholics should teach Catholicism. Z, you know me and my position on this sort of thing well enough by now; I’d be the first person to say that ONLY Catholics should teach Catholicism.

Say what you want to your own clergy. I’m simply saying that telling, say…an 8 year old that he or she is a damned heretic might not be the best approach.

I don’t see where the OP ever said that children were being called heretics (they are not) and he never mentioned telling anyone they were going to hell. What he did say is not to use the words heretic or error. This can be tough since Catholic schools teach not only doctrine but also church history. This history is taught from a Catholic perspective and the Catholic perspective includes heresy, heretics, schism, and even error.

 

[ibkc]

Have any of you noticed Catholic Schools closing in your area because of the economy?

No. In this archdiocese the Catholic schools are thriving and demand is outstripping the supply.

 

[ibkc]

Say what you want to your own clergy. I’m simply saying that telling, say…an 8 year old that he or she is a damned heretic might not be the best approach.

You keep saying this over and over, but it is a non sequitur. Catholic schools do not do this.

 

[dianaiad]

I don’t see where the OP ever said that children were being called heretics (they are not) and he never mentioned telling anyone they were going to hell. What he did say is not to use the words heretic or error. This can be tough since Catholic schools teach not only doctrine but also church history. This history is taught from a Catholic perspective and the Catholic perspective includes heresy, heretics, schism, and even error.

In all honesty, Z, I don’t understand why the words “heretic” or ‘in error’ should ever come up in religious instruction. I really don’t. The only way they COULD come up is if the class got off topic; that is, when the teacher stops teaching Catholicism and starts teaching something else–and that’s a waste of time.

After all, if you are busy teaching what you believe is the truth, where do you have time to talk about something that isn’t? In fact, the only time the word should come up is if one of the students ask…and the answer should be something like “well, that isn’t what we believe, and it’s not what we teach. If you have questions, please ask your parents or your own church leaders. HERE, we teach this…” and go straight on with what you should be teaching.

 

[crazzeto]

In all honesty, Z, I don’t understand why the words “heretic” or ‘in error’ should ever come up in religious instruction. I really don’t. The only way they COULD come up is if the class got off topic; that is, when the teacher stops teaching Catholicism and starts teaching something else–and that’s a waste of time.

After all, if you are busy teaching what you believe is the truth, where do you have time to talk about something that isn’t? In fact, the only time the word should come up is if one of the students ask…and the answer should be something like “well, that isn’t what we believe, and it’s not what we teach. If you have questions, please ask your parents or your own church leaders. HERE, we teach this…” and go straight on with what you should be teaching.

They should be used, because Heresy and error in teaching does in fact exist. A Catholic would say Luther and Calvin were, them selves Heritics, and Heretical Teachers. We wouldn’t accuse Lutherans today of the same Charge. Why? Because Lutherans (and Protestants) today are generally honest and sinceer, they’ve been formed with their beleifs since childhood. This obsolves them of the crime (from our perspective at least, if you will) of their parents. The fact, however, that there can only be a single objective truth of God (God is not schitzo) means that one faith group is right, and a lot of faith groups are forming their sheep with varying amounts of error. Do you expect a Catholic school to teach it’s students that we’re teaching in error? Particularly in light of the fact that we are the Church formed by Christ? I think not.

 

[jmcrae]

Why are Catholic schools not considered “private schools” in the ordinary sense??

Because the tax dollars of Catholic households that support these schools are still considered “public money” because of the fact that they are collected through the government’s taxation system - so the Catholic teachers, who are being paid with Catholic tax dollars, are still considered government employees in the school system, and have the same requirements as public school teachers.

Does this difference apply to other religious schools, we have three religious schools in town a Baptist a Lutheran and a Catholic do all three have this requirement?

I’m not aware of Baptists or Lutherans paying taxes to support their schools, specifically, but if they do, then their teachers also have the same requirements as Catholic and public school teachers.

 

[dianaiad]

They should be used, because Heresy and error in teaching does in fact exist. A Catholic would say Luther and Calvin were, them selves Heritics, and Heretical Teachers. We wouldn’t accuse Lutherans today of the same Charge. Why? Because Lutherans (and Protestants) today are generally honest and sinceer, they’ve been formed with their beleifs since childhood. This obsolves them of the crime (from our perspective at least, if you will) of their parents. The fact, however, that there can only be a single objective truth of God (God is not schitzo) means that one faith group is right, and a lot of faith groups are forming their sheep with varying amounts of error. Do you expect a Catholic school to teach it’s students that we’re teaching in error? Particularly in light of the fact that we are the Church formed by Christ? I think not.

No, I do not expect Catholic schools to “teach its students that we’re teaching in error.” Quite the opposite. I expect a Catholic religion teacher to teach Catholicism as if it is the truth and the only truth there is.

What IS it with you people? Y’all are REALLY having a problem taking 'yes, I agree with you" as an answer, aren’t you?

 

[jmcrae]

We WERE? You are moving the goal posts. I was under the impression, from most of the posts here, that this was about the whole of the Catholic school experience.

The OP mentions that “Lutheranteach” has been hired on as a Religion teacher at a Catholic school, which is where the discussion on non-Catholics teaching in Catholic schools originates from.

Tell me, what would your reaction be, if Lutheranteach were to be hired on to teach Theology at your Mormon junior seminary?

Since you moved the goalposts, I’ll move with you. Of course Catholics should teach Catholicism. Z, you know me and my position on this sort of thing well enough by now; I’d be the first person to say that ONLY Catholics should teach Catholicism.

Then I don’t think you disagree with the rest of us.

Say what you want to your own clergy. I’m simply saying that telling, say…an 8 year old that he or she is a damned heretic might not be the best approach.

No one has ever suggested doing such a thing.

 

[crazzeto]

No, I do not expect Catholic schools to “teach its students that we’re teaching in error.” Quite the opposite. I expect a Catholic religion teacher to teach Catholicism as if it is the truth and the only truth there is.

What IS it with you people? Y’all are REALLY having a problem taking 'yes, I agree with you" as an answer, aren’t you?

How do you expect us to do so, with out saying “oh yeah, by the way there are a bunch of splinter churches forming their followers in error”. It’s an inescapeable logical conclusion. In fact, kids aren’t stupid, they’re going to bring it up “so does that mean Protestants are wrong”. What do you want a Catholic school teacher to say if you advocate eliminating the word “error” from their vocabalary?

 

[dianaiad]

Because the tax dollars of Catholic households that support these schools are still considered “public money” because of the fact that they are collected through the government’s taxation system - so the Catholic teachers, who are being paid with Catholic tax dollars, are still considered government employees in the school system, and have the same requirements as public school teachers.

You are in Canada. The laws may well be as you state them there. However, most of us are in the USA, and those requirements that you insist all Catholic schools must adhere to simply do not apply here.

…and here I thought that it was the USA that was supposed to be the arrogant assumer that everybody worked the way we do…

I’m not aware of Baptists or Lutherans paying taxes to support their schools, specifically, but if they do, then their teachers also have the same requirements as Catholic and public school teachers.

No church pays taxes to the US Government…and that doesn’t matter anyway. Private schools from any source may hire anyone they wish to hire. The only thing they need to worry about is accreditation; in order for their degrees to ‘count,’ (with colleges and employers) they must be accredited by regional accreditation organizations. Those organizations have some very specific requirements that include the level of education desired in the teaching staff. However, even then the requirements aren’t as stiff as for public schools.

…and accreditation isn’t required by law, just by good sense.

 

[jmcrae]

In all honesty, Z, I don’t understand why the words “heretic” or ‘in error’ should ever come up in religious instruction. I really don’t.

It would come up in a class on Religious history, when the students are asked to name and define the 17 heresies, give the dates when they occurred, and the names and dates of the Councils that responded to them.

 

[dianaiad]

How do you expect us to do so, with out saying “oh yeah, by the way there are a bunch of splinter churches forming their followers in error”.

That’s easy. Ignore them. You don’t have time to address each and every heresy/difference people can come up with anyway. Simply teach Catholicism. If you do that well, who CARES what anybody else believes?

It’s an inescapeable logical conclusion. In fact, kids aren’t stupid, they’re going to bring it up “so does that mean Protestants are wrong”.

When they do that, the teacher says “we believe they are. If you have questions, ask your parents or the leaders of your own faith. WE are learning…today.”

What do you want a Catholic school teacher to say if you advocate eliminating the word “error” from their vocabalary?

I didn’t say that they should eliminate the word ‘error…’ I DID say that I didn’t see why it should come up, and I wrote what I thought the answer to such questions should be. 3 seconds and back to the topic, which would be–whatever Catholics believe about it. If there is a difference between that and what a non-Catholic student believes, then this will be rather obvious to the non-Catholic student. He or she can ask for clarification at home or at his or her own church.

His or her parents will have to accept that if they send their kids to a Catholic school, this WILL happen, and they WILL have to explain any differences that come up; it will be their job, not the Catholic teacher’s job.

 

[ibkc]

When they do that, the teacher says “we believe they are. If you have questions, ask your parents or the leaders of your own faith. WE are learning…today.”

That sends the message that “we” could be wrong. No thanks.

 

[crazzeto]

That’s easy. Ignore them. You don’t have time to address each and every heresy/difference people can come up with anyway. Simply teach Catholicism. If you do that well, who CARES what anybody else believes?

Wow, that’s the wrong answer. We Catholics beleive firmly that faith is rational, if we do as you suggest how does this bode to our teaching that faith in God is completely rational? I think this would teach kids the exact oppisite, to beleive irrationally when there is no need to. Faith in God is completely rational, so is the history, development and continued growth (both peronally and as a whole) in and of the Catholic Church. And rationally, since there is a single objective truth of God, and rationally since we have the fullest revelation of truth, then rationally the other Christian faith groups exist in a varying state of error. Some very erroneous, others not quite as much.

When they do that, the teacher says “we believe they are. If you have questions, ask your parents or the leaders of your own faith. WE are learning…today.”

And then the kid thinks “why cant you give me a straight answer to a simple question”. You do realize that one of the biggest reasons why people leave their faith traidtion is because they can’t get straight answers to simple questions. It would be wrong of any Catholic school teacher to cause their students to suffer this when there is no need. The answer is clear and supportable by impirical, historical fact, the Protestants fell away from the true faith, thus into error.

I didn’t say that they should eliminate the word ‘error…’ I DID say that I didn’t see why it should come up, and I wrote what I thought the answer to such questions should be. 3 seconds and back to the topic, which would be–whatever Catholics believe about it. If there is a difference between that and what a non-Catholic student believes, then this will be rather obvious to the non-Catholic student. He or she can ask for clarification at home or at his or her own church.

Then why are you bothering suggesting Catholic school teachers offer students all these non-answers. If you’re not suggesting this, then why bother beating around the bush? Faiths which fell away from the one true church exist in error. There, I said it (again).

His or her parents will have to accept that if they send their kids to a Catholic school, this WILL happen, and they WILL have to explain any differences that come up; it will be their job, not the Catholic teacher’s job.

Exactly, if you send your kid to Catholic school you have to accept your kids will get a good Catholic education. So why complain when your kids good Catholic teachers tell them that the Protestant faith groups now exist with erroneous teaching?

 

[dianaiad]

That sends the message that “we” could be wrong. No thanks.

No it doesn’t. Besides, it would only send that message to students who already THOUGHT that…if not, they’d be Catholics. That Catholics believe they are right and everybody else is wrong is a given; it goes with belonging to a religion of any sort, come to think of it.

Any class in Catholicism taught by a Catholic in a Catholic school would make the idea that 'Catholics are right and if you aren’t a Catholic, you are wrong" implicit.

 

[dianaiad]

Wow, that’s the wrong answer. We Catholics beleive firmly that faith is rational, if we do as you suggest how does this bode to our teaching that faith in God is completely rational?

How can it not, if you believe it? What, you actually have to intimidate and insult other people’s beliefs in order to show how rational yours are?

This is NOT included in any definition of rationality I know about. If your beliefs are rational, they are rational. That will show.

I think this would teach kids the exact oppisite, to beleive irrationally when there is no need to.

This is a complete non-sequitur. How in the name of all that is wonderful is teaching what you believe to be truth IRRATIONAL?

That can only be true if your faith IS irrational. Since you don’t think so, how does rationality or irrationality enter into the discussion at all?

,snip to end…

 

[ibkc]

No it doesn’t. Besides, it would only send that message to students who already THOUGHT that…if not, they’d be Catholics.

No. That isn’t how it works. Children are the religion of their parents, by and large, unless their parents are of the warm-fuzzy belief that kids should choose their own faith. And Catholic schools are open to non-Catholics partly for the purpose of evangelization. I know of quite a few people who were sent to Catholic school by their non-Catholic parents, who then converted to Catholicism when they were adults. That is because the faith was taught firmly, not in this wishy-washy let’s-don’t-offend-people manner.