Dear Catholic Hymnal: Music Not Written in the '60s Is Still Good

  • Thread starter Thread starter auctoris
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
People who make these decisions have to be open to change. Sadly that open mindedness is missing in our parish. In fact those who have spoken most loudly about change may be the least open to it. In our parish and in others I suspect, the parish is staffed by a “ministry class” which is predominantly older, well educated, financially comfortable, female, retired or not working. None of these are bad characteristics, but the culture and thinking has attracted itself like magnets, turned inward on itself and become intolerant. It has marginalized those with healthy respect for the whole tradition of the Church. Oddly enough, the mantra is “If you want things the old way, you should step aside”. The old way???
When “change” means the same music that a 55 year old played at Mass in 1970, something has gone wrong.

I really have no idea what breaks this gridlock, other than ugly disagreements. I don’t want to go there, so…I don’t know.
 
Sadly, a good share of music directors really don’t have the knowledge that they should in regard to liturgical music. This results in many just grabbing one of the resource magazines published by OCP or some other such company, flipping to the day they want and picking something from it. Okay, it might not be so TOO bad if those magazines would suggest decent music, but they don’t. A majority of the hymn suggestions are from the 60’s to the 80’s and are in the style that the OP has mentioned he doesn’t like. Sometimes I think that they purposely push these particular hymns because they are quite often composed primarily for that particular publisher.

Something interesting I noted about one such magazine is that they started referring to the entrance, communion, and offertory as chants — but not ONCE would it suggest an actual chant for that part of the Mass. So why reference the chant… because the Propers are suggested? Surely not everyone in the music industry is so ignorant of actual liturgical music, are they?

Pastor, too, are sorely lacking more often than not. I can count on one hand the number of priests in my area who have a solid knowledge of what is and is not appropriate for liturgical music. I have been told by priests that music is something that isn’t stressed (or even taught in some cases) in seminaries. Many of them in my experience view music solely as a means of getting more people to come to Mass.

So what we have are…
  1. Lack of education in music in seminaries (although I hear a few are turning that around)
  2. That turns into priests who know little (or care little) about music. Which in turn…
  3. Results in the hiring of anyone who can play an instrument, regardless of their liturgical knowledge.
  4. They trust the publishing companies and do what is suggested to them.
Do the math from there.

I strongly encourage anyone seeking better music during Mass to look up the Church Music Association of America. One can find a boatload of resources that can help a parish get started on a better path, continue on that path, and more. Pastors, too, should be aware of this resource.
 
I only know how music works in Protestant churches so can someone tell me how it typically works in Catholic churches?

Every Protestant church of which I have been a member has had a full time “minister of music” with at least a master’s degree is sacred music from seminary. I know some Protestant churches employee part-time music ministers with only bachelors degrees. I believe it is only the small, rural churches that do not have a paid position with academic requirements. At least that’s how it works in my denomination.

Do all Catholic churches have “music ministers”/“music directors”? Are they mostly full-time paid positions? Do they have academic requirements? Is music as important in Catholic services as it is in Protestant services?

My last Protestant church had a choir of 50-100 and a full orchestra (plus organ and piano). They typically mixed classical, old standard hymns, and modern praise & worship. So going to a Catholic church of comparable size (physically and attendance) with three girls singing 70s songs accompanied by one acoustic guitar is a little different for me.
 
auctoris said:
I only know how music works in Protestant churches so can someone tell me how it typically works in Catholic churches?

Every Protestant church of which I have been a member has had a full time “minister of music” with at least a master’s degree is sacred music from seminary. I know some Protestant churches employee part-time music ministers with only bachelors degrees. I believe it is only the small, rural churches that do not have a paid position with academic requirements. At least that’s how it works in my denomination.

Do all Catholic churches have “music ministers”/“music directors”? Are they mostly full-time paid positions? Do they have academic requirements? Is music as important in Catholic services as it is in Protestant services?

My last Protestant church had a choir of 50-100 and a full orchestra (plus organ and piano). They typically mixed classical, old standard hymns, and modern praise & worship. So going to a Catholic church of comparable size (physically and attendance) with three girls singing 70s songs accompanied by one acoustic guitar is a little different for me.
Click to expand...
You will probably get a different answer from each person on the forum.

My Church is a small mission Church. None of the musicians are paid. Some of the time we have four groups. I play the piano so my husband and I lead the Mass for the first Sunday of the mouth. We call it the “Latin Mass” because we sing the service music in Latin. The second Sunday we have a small choir with a different pianist. The third Sunday is a toss up, sometimes we have a guitar Mass but the guitarist is not always around are so most of the time my husband and I lead the Mass using more contemporary music. For the fourth Sunday a larger choir (sometimes as many as 6 singers) sings while I accompany them with the piano. When there is a fifth Sunday we try to have children in the Choir. There is no one in charge we just help each other the best we can. It works surprising well but I wouldn’t advise it for a larger congregation.

PS My personal favorite Mass is the simplicity of a good cantor (my husband for instance) leading the congregation for the first Sunday Latin Mass.
 
To answer your question “Is music as important in Catholic services as it is in Protestant services?”

I think the music in Catholic Mass is in some way more important. For me especially when the service music is sung in Latin. This is so hard to explain to a Protestant but when the priest and a good cantor are praying the Mass together, the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ becomes even more real to me.

For me, and I speak only for myself. When I go to a good Protestant service where the music is wonderful, I feel as if I am at a wonderful family picnic in the mountains. We have wonderful time. There is much love and much friendship

During Mass, I have somehow removed myself from the picnic and I am alone beneath the tall mountain pines. I can hear the wind in the pine trees and I am alone with God.

I have no other way to describe what I feel but what I have experienced in my life. These are the experiences I have had in what is best that a Protestant Service can offer and what the Catholic Mass has given to me.
 
I wish I could disagree with the many expressed concerns about the deplorable state of music education in our schools, but I see the same thing in our area-Music classes one day each week. However, the music programs at some of the local Catholic schools are excellent and several of the schools I have visited have band programs as well. Students in these classes are learning to sight read and one of the leading pianists is a middle school student!

In my parents choir, my parents are the only two sight readers. This does give me some hope, as the choir sounds wonderful and does learn their music by ear while getting a bit of sight coaching from their trusty organist/pianist.

Like Cat, she donates her labor and she considers it part of her tithe.
I also have hope because those in each of the three churches I regularly attend are able to sing along with the psalms quite well, which requires them to listen to a bit of unfamiliar music and then repeat it back at regular intervals.

Of course, there are always a few people at any Mass who don’t quite find the key, and this is unlikely to change. But, if we think of the psalms sung at our masses, the possibility of learning and adopting other momentarily unfamiliar songs seems possible. After all, every song was new once and we just learned new settings for the creed.

Many children continue to study piano, and a Phd. is not necessary to accompany a Mass. Organists are in shorter supply (although my Latin Mass parish is blessed with two organists). With prayer and support, and patience, we can slowly develop our music programs, one note at a time.:harp: :harp:
 
What I found missing from the new 70’s, 80’s , 90’s pop church music and even in some of the great hymns drawn from the Protestant tradition was a* tone of voice* adequate for the Mass and familiar to Catholics everywhere. Some were too trite, folksy, Broadway, or archaic. No matter how well we sang them , they didn’t seem to be part of our culture. So being an ethnic area, to embrace our culture we tried the polka Mass. Later we recognized that in the Church’s chant there is a culture and a music we all recognized as One, holy , Catholic, and Apostolic.
Tone of Voice: With tone of voice we can change this simple phrase: " How are yot today?" into something friendly, cynicle, sarcastic, inquisitive. Chant allows the proper tone of voice for our music to unfold beautifully before our eyes ( ears). Then in it we recognize it is the Voice of the Lord greeting us in the introits and communions antiphons.Just a little bit of chant really transforms the congregation into a presence of Christ.

Here’s the kinds of thins we do; Chant and hymns, something new every week in the antiphons, we also include our favorite pop hymns, and traditional hymns.
 
Enim said:
What I found missing from the new 70’s, 80’s , 90’s pop church music and even in some of the great hymns drawn from the Protestant tradition was a* tone of voice* adequate for the Mass and familiar to Catholics everywhere. Some were too trite, folksy, Broadway, or archaic. No matter how well we sang them , they didn’t seem to be part of our culture. So being an ethnic area, to embrace our culture we tried the polka Mass. Later we recognized that in the Church’s chant there is a culture and a music we all recognized as One, holy , Catholic, and Apostolic.
Tone of Voice: With tone of voice we can change this simple phrase: " How are yot today?" into something friendly, cynicle, sarcastic, inquisitive. Chant allows the proper tone of voice for our music to unfold beautifully before our eyes ( ears). Then in it we recognize it is the Voice of the Lord greeting us in the introits and communions antiphons.Just a little bit of chant really transforms the congregation into a presence of Christ.

Here’s the kinds of thins we do; Chant and hymns, something new every week in the antiphons, we also include our favorite pop hymns, and traditional hymns.
Click to expand...
Good observations.
We use a hymnal called Voices As One vol 1 and 2, and old versions at that.
Much of the music is un-singable. The “melodies” have no intuitive flow, and do not draw one towards anything deeply spiritual, as they are distracting. The music doesn’t “make any sense”. The problem is not that the music is modern and different, the problem is that it is modern and different for it’s own sake, not for the sake of expressing who God is.
The music is what I would call “forced” or contrived. It’s different for difference’ sake.
 
Enim said:
What I found missing from the new 70’s, 80’s , 90’s pop church music and even in some of the great hymns drawn from the Protestant tradition was a* tone of voice* adequate for the Mass and familiar to Catholics everywhere. Some were too trite, folksy, Broadway, or archaic. No matter how well we sang them , they didn’t seem to be part of our culture. So being an ethnic area, to embrace our culture we tried the polka Mass. Later we recognized that in the Church’s chant there is a culture and a music we all recognized as One, holy , Catholic, and Apostolic.
Tone of Voice: With tone of voice we can change this simple phrase: " How are yot today?" into something friendly, cynicle, sarcastic, inquisitive. Chant allows the proper tone of voice for our music to unfold beautifully before our eyes ( ears). Then in it we recognize it is the Voice of the Lord greeting us in the introits and communions antiphons.Just a little bit of chant really transforms the congregation into a presence of Christ.

Here’s the kinds of thins we do; Chant and hymns, something new every week in the antiphons, we also include our favorite pop hymns, and traditional hymns.
Click to expand...
You make the statement, “…music we all recognized as One, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.”

Not ALL will recognize it. Gregorian chant is used in many settings other than Catholic churches; e.g., the concert stage, a recording studio, movies, television shows, games with audio, etc…

Those of us who did not grow up Catholic have heard Gregorian chant in those settings, and so many of us do not 'recognize it as One, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic."

The music that I personally recognize as “church music” is gospel music. I hear that organ and piano thumping, and I know I’m in church. Remember, in my church tradition, we didn’t go into bars, nightclubs, or lounges, so we have no association of this music with “worldliness” as some of you do.

Please don’t get the wrong idea–I’m not saying that Gregorian chant doesn’t belong in the Mass. Of course it does.

I’m just trying to correct a statement that you made that simply isn’t true. Not everyone “recognizes” the same music as “church.” It depends on our upbringing and background.
 
A question, though:

When movies, TV shows, etc. use Gregorian chant, what are they trying to evoke? It might just be the Catholic Church. 🙂
 
27lw said:
A question, though:

When movies, TV shows, etc. use Gregorian chant, what are they trying to evoke? It might just be the Catholic Church. 🙂
Click to expand...
Sorry to say it. Horror, witchcraft, etc.

27lw, chant (Gregorian and other) is used as background music for every kind of movie and television show that you can possibly imagine. 😦
 
Oh dear. Since I watch absolutely no horror movies, I suppose I didn’t realize this. Too bad the Church let them take that over.
😦
 
27lw said:
Oh dear. Since I watch absolutely no horror movies, I suppose I didn’t realize this. Too bad the Church let them take that over.
😦
Click to expand...
Don’t let it bother you. The only time you’ll probably hear the Ides Irae is on Nov. 2, right after Halloween and after you’ve seen more spirits knocking on your front door than on tv. 🙂
 
27lw said:
Oh dear. Since I watch absolutely no horror movies, I suppose I didn’t realize this. Too bad the Church let them take that over.
😦
Click to expand...
With respect, the Church has no say in this. The Church does not own music and musical styles, even Gregorian chant.

Music belongs to those who pay for it. Even “Happy Birthday” is copyrighted.

In the case of Gregorian chant, it can be easily imitated so that even if the Church DOES own a copyright, other pieces can be written. Again, this musical style of “Gregorian chant” does not drop out of heaven and it is not handwritten by God. It’s a creation of man, just like all other music. It has “rules” and “conventions” that can be followed by those who wish to write a piece of Gregorian chant, including those who write movie scores.

The only way the Church could control what music is used in movies is for the millions of Catholics in the U.S. to boycott the movie. But they don’t do that. Movie boycotts usually end up giving a lot of free publicity to a movie that probably would have been viritually ignored had the boycott not happened. Instead, the movie becomes a cult hit and attracts viewers for decades.
 
I guess I was thinking that if the Church still used chant, then it wouldn’t make sense to use it for horror / archaic / creepy music…
 
Believe me, you are not alone. There are plenty of Catholics who are lamenting this. Personally I am depressed when I go to a Catholic church that was built to look like a high school gym or convention center rather than a Church, and sings feel-good fluffy music taken from the local christian radio station, or actual mass music set to the theme song of “My Little Pony:”

pblosser.blogspot.com/2014/04/dan-schuttes-glory-to-god-and-my-little.html

These are the churches that turn every homily into a parish meeting or pop-psychology session, replace vestments with giant tablecloths with modern art printed on them, and adopt iconoclasm and rip out every statue or icon, replacing them with banners for every extra-curricular activity of the parish. And these parishes have NO incense whatsoever… we have life-teen masses instead. 🙂 In short, the Catholic Church has tried to be more protestant but ended up with… Barney and friends. Let’s hope that the new wave of priests can change things.
 
jeannetherese said:
I wish I could disagree with the many expressed concerns about the deplorable state of music education in our schools, but I see the same thing in our area-Music classes one day each week.
Click to expand...
I once aspired to be a church organist. Bought a used church organ, in fact. Could play all hymns and several of Bach’s Small Preludes and Fugues inter alia. Two things cut those aspirations. One was a greater demand for guitars in the church and the other was the introduction of midi-compatible instruments into the church. That’s right, all you had to do was to enter or edit keys from a musical score or copy and paste several measures any way you wanted. You could even enter notes from the computer keyboard. Or transpose into different scales or change instrumentation even. Not much different than the piano rolls but certainly more versatile and even transparent to a congregation if played in the balcony or such. They may have imposed a ban against them for all I know but it’s just the principle of it that blew me away.
 
Wow! You Started this thread Sept 14th 2014, and 4 pages worth of people have responded already! People DO care about holy music, it seems.

I HATE it when church music seems stuck in a time warp. Whether people like Pope Francis realize it or not, the seventies are long over.

More modern hymns have less of a focus on “us” and more of a focus on God. That is why I like to see hymns written year 2000 or later

I also love the Watts, Wesley hymns, and the old German Hymns (Like " Now Thank We all Our God" because those hymns not only have beautiful tunes, but lyrics that can lift the mind to heaven. Also, some of the old classics can make people feel happy, if there is a happy occasion going on. (eg. * Bringing in the Sheaves_*

I feel church music should be a mix of old and the very new. If a congregation member has written a hymn, it could be performed/sung after approval by the pastor.

Gregorian chant is a miracle. Especially if the congregation sings it and not just listens. I have experienced God blessings from chanting along one Holy Thursday. I never knew music could have such an effect on a person. Chanting does. It’s special, and needs to be brought back.:whistle:
 
Weejee - - I love your post. There are definitely composers working today who produce great music - - apparently Kevin Allen is one of those (among lots of others).
Have a great day!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top