Dear Catholic Hymnal: Music Not Written in the '60s Is Still Good

[Cat]

I guess I was thinking that if the Church still used chant, then it wouldn’t make sense to use it for horror / archaic / creepy music…

That makes it even scarier!

The most frightening place to be is a place that you THINK is safe and warm, and it turns out to be everything but. :frighten:

Besides, a lot of the more “Satanic” horror movies and shows consider it clever to “mock” the Church and God by using religious-sounding music.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Some people think I promote chant because I like it. That is a motivation, I guess, but that is incidental: I promote chant because the Church plainly says She prefers it. It just so happens that I like it.

 

[pnewton]

I only know how music works in Protestant churches so can someone tell me how it typically works in Catholic churches?

Do all Catholic churches have “music ministers”/“music directors”? Are they mostly full-time paid positions? Do they have academic requirements? Is music as important in Catholic services as it is in Protestant services?

Catholic Churches practice what is known as subsidiarity in music, that is, those closest to the parish make the decisions. The Church issues general instructions which are then interpreted by the bishop who issues any further instructions he deems wise. From this, it is the priest who has the authority for all decisions. Some priest may take a heavy lead in this and others may delegate that authority to another individual, committee or group. There is no one way of operating because each parish has unique needs. This uniqueness is why the majority of decisions are made locally.

I think compared to Protestants, Catholics spend a whole lot less on music though, with fewer staff and paid musicians. I think this is fine. After all, the source and summit of the Catholic faith is the Holy Eucharist. As Protestants lack this, worship music is of greater importance.

 

[pnewton]

If the movement for chant wants more of it, then let’s transpose it into easily readable notation.

I agree with Cat that chant is no walk in the park. I am very happy for those that find it easy, but the truth is, chant notation is singular, unlike any music anyone today has been exposed to. It is like learning another language, and in Latin, this is true twice. I think chant, and in Latin, is a worthwhile pursuit, but I do not take it as an easy course, one that can be taken quickly or something that is always best in every parish. However, modern hymnals have done a poor job of incorporating a sufficient balance of chant, both Latin and English.

Which brings me back to the first post. I believe the advent of the staff musician combined with current copyright laws has been a detriment to the music industry. There are a few prolific composers that will have more than one or two good songs, but even they write more mundane music than truly inspired music. Take your average secular album with one or two really good songs surrounded by music that is okay and one or two lousy songs. In the hymnal business, the economics of paying copyright on every song written outside your staff, makes them include the whole album, lousy stuff included, squeezing out other hits that they would have to pay royalties on.

 

[christus_vincit]

Some people think I promote chant because I like it. That is a motivation, I guess, but that is incidental: I promote chant because the Church plainly says She prefers it. It just so happens that I like it.

Exactly. Same here!

 

[CompSciGuy]

Exactly. Same here!

It is in fact beyond personal preference, I would argue. There is a certain quality to music that naturally categorizes it: you have circus music, you have rock music, you have holy music, and holy music, no matter what the tradition, has a sublime quality that naturally points the hearts and minds of those listening toward the heavens. This is true of gregorian chant, as it is of the chants of eastern Christianity, or even the Adhan of Islam. They are designed this way. It’s the same with art, when we see the statues of the apostles, the tall, ornate cathedrals, or holy icons, it fills us with a sense of reverence and points our hearts and minds towards heaven. They are designed that way. That is why it is so offensive when we replace holy music with rock-and-roll, and when we rip out statues and replace it with ugly banners and build churches to look like convention centers with plain, modern neo-soviet looking architecture. We are depriving the congregation of their Catholic heritage and tradition and replacing it with secularism.

 

[ProVobis]

Some people think I promote chant because I like it. That is a motivation, I guess, but that is incidental: I promote chant because the Church plainly says She prefers it. It just so happens that I like it.

Not only that but I believe the Church offers the Latin version free of charge to each parish.

 

[JakeWI]

I know I posted here on this thread before, but I just wanted to reiterate a couple things…

I feel like slowly as things change within the church, things will improve. There seems to be a drive by some younger people in the Church, at least in this area, to provide a sense of religious beauty in the music, in the Mass, etc. It is a very slow process, but I just recently found out in the last week that there was a schola formed in my Archdiocese maybe a year or two back to provide chant to different Parishes in the area. At the same time, the music director at my Parish has created a group of both children and adults that are able to sing “beautiful, sacred music” at different Parishes outside of only ours.

I was recently told that there is a “solid” group of soon to be Priests within our seminary here. They are very well versed in the history of the Church, have much vigor in making sure it is retained. I have seen some new Priests within our Diocese, and they are very active in the Church’s teaching on sacred music… to which they are enacting. I haven’t seen this many new organs purchased in my lifetime at at least a few different Parishes in the area.

We are very blessed to have a young 30something Priest at our Parish who is doing just that. And you know what? I just found out that our one Church Parish finished it’s fiscal year in the black, with an increased number of members, increased number of students at the school, and all around very fired up and active Parish with many great ministries and organizations. And… gasp… a Children’s choir of at least 20 children that WANT to sing at more Masses, and sing as great as the adult choir… and include Latin and beautiful sacred hymns in what they sing.

I always get down on what some say here, but I pray that more can and will experience some positive renewals in their Parish as I have been seeing. It is probably an anomaly, but hopefully will become more regular as more concentrate on what can create a sense of beauty in the Mass.

 

[Cat]

I know I posted here on this thread before, but I just wanted to reiterate a couple things…

I feel like slowly as things change within the church, things will improve. There seems to be a drive by some younger people in the Church, at least in this area, to provide a sense of religious beauty in the music, in the Mass, etc. It is a very slow process, but I just recently found out in the last week that there was a schola formed in my Archdiocese maybe a year or two back to provide chant to different Parishes in the area. At the same time, the music director at my Parish has created a group of both children and adults that are able to sing “beautiful, sacred music” at different Parishes outside of only ours.

I was recently told that there is a “solid” group of soon to be Priests within our seminary here. They are very well versed in the history of the Church, have much vigor in making sure it is retained. I have seen some new Priests within our Diocese, and they are very active in the Church’s teaching on sacred music… to which they are enacting. I haven’t seen this many new organs purchased in my lifetime at at least a few different Parishes in the area.

We are very blessed to have a young 30something Priest at our Parish who is doing just that. And you know what? I just found out that our one Church Parish finished it’s fiscal year in the black, with an increased number of members, increased number of students at the school, and all around very fired up and active Parish with many great ministries and organizations. And… gasp… a Children’s choir of at least 20 children that WANT to sing at more Masses, and sing as great as the adult choir… and include Latin and beautiful sacred hymns in what they sing.

I always get down on what some say here, but I pray that more can and will experience some positive renewals in their Parish as I have been seeing. It is probably an anomaly, but hopefully will become more regular as more concentrate on what can create a sense of beauty in the Mass.

New organs, eh?

I’m not asking this cynically, I’m asking it seriously–are there organists to play them?

If not, the money is wasted. An organ is no good if it is just a lovely decoration.

If there are organists to play them, may I ask how your diocese found and recruited them?

 

[Cat]

It is in fact beyond personal preference, I would argue. There is a certain quality to music that naturally categorizes it: you have circus music, you have rock music, you have holy music, and holy music, no matter what the tradition, has a sublime quality that naturally points the hearts and minds of those listening toward the heavens. This is true of gregorian chant, as it is of the chants of eastern Christianity, or even the Adhan of Islam. They are designed this way. It’s the same with art, when we see the statues of the apostles, the tall, ornate cathedrals, or holy icons, it fills us with a sense of reverence and points our hearts and minds towards heaven. They are designed that way. That is why it is so offensive when we replace holy music with rock-and-roll, and when we rip out statues and replace it with ugly banners and build churches to look like convention centers with plain, modern neo-soviet looking architecture. We are depriving the congregation of their Catholic heritage and tradition and replacing it with secularism.

I hope you will try to see another point of view.

Several times in this thread, I have said that music is a matter of personal preference. What you see as “music that fills us with a sense of reverence and points our hearts and minds towards heaven” may be seen by others as “concert hall music”.

And what you see as ugly and worldly may be seen by others as “music that fills us with a sense of reverence and points our hearts and minds towards heaven.”

Because I was raised with it, I see gospel and Christian rock as reverent music that points my heart and mind towards heaven. Think about it–I ended up Catholic, didn’t I? And so did my husband and our daughter. Our music certainly wasn’t pointing us AWAY from God and heaven, was it?

 

[JakeWI]

Many of our Parishes have very talented organists and pianists in the area. There are a few that do the guitar Masses, but it seems like many more that are starting to go back to the piano and Organ (usually hybrids). Our Music Director uses both the Organ and Piano… very talented lady. There is another Parish maybe 5-10 min away that has a very talented Organist as well. They are one who just received a new organ a year ago. He is not the youngest, but overall seems to have it right. Them, like us, have also started a handbell choir… which seems to be picking up in popularity across our Arch. Then there is the Parish where our Music Director came from… he also talks about their pipe organ in his description on that Parish website. Them too, have a hand bell choir. Another in a northern suburb was one of the people who started the schola… but she recently had gotten a job at a seminary as their Music Director. She, too, just had a new organ installed within the last 2 years and has brought back some more sacred music to that Church.

While I do not know why this has happened, I do feel like it may be because much of the area has a very Polish and German/European upbringing (which I am a stubborn German myself!). We are blessed to have two beautiful Basilicas in the area that are just breathtaking. And seemingly, some very active Catholic churches. We have a very large Catholic University here, and some wonderful history that I have just been learning about. There is a lot of, let’s just say… tradition within many people here. I think it is the upbringing. Us in this state aren’t too keen on change… though it is interesting to see the change in Church music to more sacred beauty again, as I do know this Archdiocese also fell really much into the “spirit” of Vatican II. It is funny to hear my mom’s stories about a Church that actually sang Three Dog Night - Joy To The World as one of their songs back in the 70s.

 

[JakeWI]

I hope you will try to see another point of view.

Several times in this thread, I have said that music is a matter of personal preference. What you see as “music that fills us with a sense of reverence and points our hearts and minds towards heaven” may be seen by others as “concert hall music”.

And what you see as ugly and worldly may be seen by others as “music that fills us with a sense of reverence and points our hearts and minds towards heaven.”

Because I was raised with it, I see gospel and Christian rock as reverent music that points my heart and mind towards heaven. Think about it–I ended up Catholic, didn’t I? And so did my husband and our daughter. Our music certainly wasn’t pointing us AWAY from God and heaven, was it?

What is interesting here… and what our music director said… is that she isn’t partial to any sort of music… just so it is sacred and beautiful. It isn’t uncommon to have a John Michael Talbot song during communion, or Bob Hurd - As The Deer Longs (beautiful song… she has played it with piano and a cello… really touches you). Though she doesn’t play a lot of Haugen, or Haas, or Schutte, outside of the occasional not as popular/older tunes of theirs. A lot of classics, some newer stuff, and a touch of Latin, and the Missa Simplex via piano for our setting. It is a good blend of everything.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I hope you will try to see another point of view.

Several times in this thread, I have said that music is a matter of personal preference. What you see as “music that fills us with a sense of reverence and points our hearts and minds towards heaven” may be seen by others as “concert hall music”.

And what you see as ugly and worldly may be seen by others as “music that fills us with a sense of reverence and points our hearts and minds towards heaven.”

Because I was raised with it, I see gospel and Christian rock as reverent music that points my heart and mind towards heaven. Think about it–I ended up Catholic, didn’t I? And so did my husband and our daughter. Our music certainly wasn’t pointing us AWAY from God and heaven, was it?

The mass should not be a matter of personal preference. The whole point of Gregorian chant is that it is its own kind of music that was made specifically for worship. Rock music was not. If you heard Gregorian chant, it doesn’t matter what language you speak, you know it is holy music. And it’s been used in the church for hundreds of years. If you hear P&W music in another language, for all you know they could be singing songs by the Rolling Stones. You can’t compare the two. Why do people get upset by the awful clown masses where priests dress up as clowns and conduct mass? I mean maybe those vestments are also a matter of personal preference. But it’s more than that, isn’t it? Clowns are for the circus, for entertainment, for making people laugh (or scared, depending on your personal views on clowns). They do not belong in the mass, and having clowns in mass is irreverent. So why is it acceptable to have rock music in mass? Rock music is for entertainment. Maybe you like Christian rock music, and that’s fine, but why would it belong in the mass? How sad that after hundreds of years we have replaced the so-called “antiquated” holy music with the hip and modern stuff of today.

 

[pnewton]

The mass should not be a matter of personal preference. .

That is not what the post said or implied. “The Mass” is not a synonym for “music.” It is unfair to substitute the latter for the former. The Catholic Church allows for leeway in the music used at Mass, based on the needs of the parish. For example, what Cat does for her parish, she does within the limits of the Church permits and in accordance to what she deems best. This is how the Church works.

 

[ProVobis]

The Catholic Church allows for leeway in the music used at Mass, based on the needs of the parish. For example, what Cat does for her parish, she does within the limits of the Church permits and in accordance to what she deems best. This is how the Church works.

Okay, this is what’s written above the entrance antiphon in one of the missalettes: “The entrance chant reflects the liturgical spirit of the day or season. Another psalm or hymn of similar spirit my be used in its place.” So you’re right, there is a lot of leeway, "similar spirit’ seems rather vague, but since the church did go to the trouble of writing the entrance, offertory, and communion antiphon for each Sunday in keeping with the theme of that day, shouldn’t at some point in the future one consider using them as part of the actuosa (real) liturgy?

 

[pnewton]

, shouldn’t at some point in the future one consider using them as part of the actuosa (real) liturgy?

The liturgy is real regardless of the music used. The use of the antiphons make liturgy no more real or the Holy Eucharist more efficacious.

I can tell you the reasons I find them difficult.

1. They are not known and people do not sing what they do not know.
2. They change too much. ( for this reason I also do not use unfamiliar hymns)
3. They are too short for most uses. One or two lines gets the priest maybe to the altar.

I am happy for those parishes who find them useful. For me, I have a parish priest and a bunch of members whose needs I concern myself. I cannot justify my choices to people to whom it is irrelevant, and have no knowledge of my parish.

 

[27lw]

The liturgy is real regardless of the music used. The use of the antiphons make liturgy no more real or the Holy Eucharist more efficacious.

I can tell you the reasons I find them difficult.

1. They are not known and people do not sing what they do not know.
2. They change too much. ( for this reason I also do not use unfamiliar hymns)
3. They are too short for most uses. One or two lines gets the priest maybe to the altar.

I am happy for those parishes who find them useful. For me, I have a parish priest and a bunch of members whose needs I concern myself. I cannot justify my choices to people to whom it is irrelevant, and have no knowledge of my parish.

I guess I don’t understand all this talk of how parishes are “different” . Aren’t they all a gathering of Catholics, there for the purpose of attending Mass? I’ll grant you that there are maybe different percentages within each parish that are different age groups, or English-speaking vs. immigrant populations. However, within the average Catholic parish in the US, what are these “differences” that you might be talking about? What is so differerent about ProVobis’s parish, or Cat’s? I think it’s mainly a question that the priests are different, and that sets the tone for liturgy. If Cat had a pastor that all of a sudden wanted chant and the propers, I bet she would find a way to make that work.

 

[27lw]

I hope you will try to see another point of view.

Several times in this thread, I have said that music is a matter of personal preference. What you see as “music that fills us with a sense of reverence and points our hearts and minds towards heaven” may be seen by others as “concert hall music”.

And what you see as ugly and worldly may be seen by others as “music that fills us with a sense of reverence and points our hearts and minds towards heaven.”
**
Because I was raised with it,** I see gospel and Christian rock as reverent music that points my heart and mind towards heaven. Think about it–I ended up Catholic, didn’t I? And so did my husband and our daughter. Our music certainly wasn’t pointing us AWAY from God and heaven, was it?

See, you are formed by the church music you were raised on. Too bad children today are not getting the normative music of the Church, and in 30-40-50 years we’ll still be having these discussion.

 

[Cat]

The mass should not be a matter of personal preference. The whole point of Gregorian chant is that it is its own kind of music that was made specifically for worship. Rock music was not. If you heard Gregorian chant, it doesn’t matter what language you speak, you know it is holy music. And it’s been used in the church for hundreds of years. If you hear P&W music in another language, for all you know they could be singing songs by the Rolling Stones. You can’t compare the two. Why do people get upset by the awful clown masses where priests dress up as clowns and conduct mass? I mean maybe those vestments are also a matter of personal preference. But it’s more than that, isn’t it? Clowns are for the circus, for entertainment, for making people laugh (or scared, depending on your personal views on clowns). They do not belong in the mass, and having clowns in mass is irreverent. So why is it acceptable to have rock music in mass? Rock music is for entertainment. Maybe you like Christian rock music, and that’s fine, but why would it belong in the mass? How sad that after hundreds of years we have replaced the so-called “antiquated” holy music with the hip and modern stuff of today.

With respect, it sounds to me as though you are using “personal preference,” if not your own, than that of others, to justify using Gregorian chant and excluding more contemporary forms of music.

To begin with, chant was not created for and by the Church. It came out of secular music. It was taken by Pope Gregory and re-tooled, so to speak, for liturgical use in the Mass.

Sorry to be the one to tell you this, but it’s true. Chant didn’t drop out of heaven, and chant is definitely NOT used exclusively by the Catholic Church. It’s just another music style that has been “redeemed” by Christians, in the same way that rock, jazz, rap, etc. have been “redeemed” by Christians and taken back from the devil.

Second, yes, we CAN compare Gregorian chant and rock music, and I’m guessing that scholarly musicians somewhere have done so. The musical construction of both styles of music can be analyzed. Gregorian chant is not some ethereal spiritual utterance; it is music, and it can be taken apart and analyzed, along with all the other styles of music.

And I’m thinking that you would be hard-pressed to find a knowledgeable musician who would be willing to say that any musical “style” is “superior” to any other musical style. It doesn’t make sense. There are musical styles that are more “complex” than other styles (and Gregorian chant is NOT one of these.) But complexity does not confer superiority.

It makes no sense to say that one musical style is “superior” to others, or “more spiritual.” It cannot be objectively determined. It’s all a matter of preference and tradition.

Third, you make the statement, “If you heard Gregorian chant, no matter what language you speak, you know it is holy music.”

This is absolutely not true. Perhaps you skipped over the posts in this thread in which I and others cite situations in which Gregorian chant and other forms of chant are used; e.g., movies and television shows, in the concert halls, in the recording studio.

**If you read nothing else in this post, please read the following statement and think about it: Those of us who grew up in non-Catholic religious traditions do NOT automatically think “church music” when we hear Gregorian chant. **

I would be willing to bet a dollar that those who have grown up with “Gather Us In” etc. recognize by now that these are not “songs by the Rolling stones.”

In fact, I would be willing to bet $10.00 that ANYONE in the United States who heard a Catholic congregation singing “City of God” during Mass would not have any trouble distinguishing it from “We Built This City On Rock And Roll,” and would definitely NOT make the mistake of assuming that “City of God” was written by for a secular concert setting.

Even though some Catholics don’t like them, nevertheless, the contemporary hymns in our Catholic hymnals and missalattes scream out, “I am a CATHOLIC liturgical song!” The words alone make it obvious that these pieces were not written to be sung as pop songs on the secular radio stations. In fact, they are not even sung by today’s Catholic rock musicians.

When my husband and I first started attending Mass, we had no problem recognizing the Haugen and Haas hymns as “Christian” and “church-appropriate.”

In fact, I was so touched by the words of Gather Us In that I sat and wrote it all down after a Mass so I could take it home and read it over and over. (Keep in mind that my husband and I had just suffered being “ousted” at our Evangelical Protestant church and we were in much pain. Gather Us In is a good song for those who are separated from the Church.)

Also, I question strongly whether people from countries other than Europe and the U.S. would “know that it is holy music.” Are you able to cite a study proving this statement? Have such studies been done using some kind of scientific method? (In other words, it isn’t scientific to walk up to your pal from Nigeria who is studying in the U.S., play a few measure of Gregorian chant from your iPod, and ask, “Hey, bud, does this sound like Catholic music to you?”)

Fourth, what is all this about clown masses?! Where did this come from in this conversation?! We aren’t talking about clown masses here! Over and over again on CAF, people admit that clown masses are rare and happened mainly in the 1970s, when the whole U.S. went crazy in the aftermath of the 1960s.

Having a contemporary piece of liturgical music in the Mass is NOT the same as having “clown Masses.”

I hope I have made some points that will help you to consider some different viewpoints and recognize their validity.

 

[CompSciGuy]

To begin with, chant was not created for and by the Church. It came out of secular music…

Where did you hear this? It is a well-known fact that Gregorian chant was very much distinct from the music of the day. In fact, Gregorian chant laid the foundation for western music as a whole.

Chant didn’t drop out of heaven, and chant is definitely NOT used exclusively by the Catholic Church. It’s just another music style that has been “redeemed” by Christians…

Gregorian chant did originate and is used exclusively in the Catholic Church. No, it is not another style of music that was “redeemed” by the Church, if you look in history Gregorian chant actually was created specifically for the purpose of Christian worship.

Second, yes, we CAN compare Gregorian chant and rock music, and I’m guessing that scholarly musicians somewhere have done so.

In the sense that, as I stated above, Gregorian chant is the basis for pretty much all western music, yes it can be compared, but in the sense of its sublimity and distinct quality, no it cannot. Rock music is loud, jarring, and distracting. Gregorian chant is contemplative, soothing and inducive to a reflective state of mind.

And I’m thinking that you would be hard-pressed to find a knowledgeable musician who would be willing to say that any musical “style” is “superior” to any other musical style. It doesn’t make sense.

I think you are using a straw man argument here. “Superiority” isn’t the question. “Applicability” is the question here. And the question is what music is applicable for mass, the most sacred act of worship there is on earth. Would you encourage a death metal mass? What about a techno mass? Or (heaven forbid) a K-pop mass? The fact that the newsboys or third day are considered acceptable as liturgical music does not mean that this is theologically or liturgically correct music to be using.

Third, you make the statement, “If you heard Gregorian chant, no matter what language you speak, you know it is holy music.”

This is absolutely not true. Perhaps you skipped over the posts in this thread in which I and others cite situations in which Gregorian chant and other forms of chant are used; e.g., movies and television shows, in the concert halls, in the recording studio.

But that is precisely why they are used in movies! There is such a strongly spiritual overtone used with them. They convey mystery, glory, sublimity. It is because of this spiritual and sacred association that people use them in movies that people use gregorian chant in movies, because it creates that atmosphere and awakens the viewer to the spirituality that the director is trying to convey.

**If you read nothing else in this post, please read the following statement and think about it: Those of us who grew up in non-Catholic religious traditions do NOT automatically think “church music” when we hear Gregorian chant. **

I disagree. I grew up evangelical Protestant and that is exactly what I think of when I hear Gregorian chant. Even though it was in Latin and I couldn’t understand the words, I had an appreciation for it. Though when I flip channels, if I come to a spanish station that sings Christian music, I don’t really know it until I hear someone say “Jesucristo” or “Senor.”

In fact, I would be willing to bet $10.00 that ANYONE in the United States who heard a Catholic congregation singing “City of God” during Mass would not have any trouble distinguishing it from “We Built This City On Rock And Roll,” and would definitely NOT make the mistake of assuming that “City of God” was written by for a secular concert setting.

Duh, because they can probably speak English. What if I did not speak the language? If I came from China and heard you singing “City of God,” do you really think that I wouldn’t be able to tell whether you were singing a religious song or just a really badly-written pop song?

Even though some Catholics don’t like them, nevertheless, the contemporary hymns in our Catholic hymnals and missalattes scream out, “I am a CATHOLIC liturgical song!” …In fact, they are not even sung by today’s Catholic rock musicians.

Right, because even today’s Catholic rock musicians probably are queasy when they hear stuff from the Gather! hymnal.

When my husband and I first started attending Mass, we had no problem recognizing the Haugen and Haas hymns as “Christian” and “church-appropriate.”

Same here, but I grew up Protestant like you. I had no concept of Catholic liturgy or theology, or why they were structured the way they were for so many years.

Also, I question strongly whether people from countries other than Europe and the U.S. would “know that it is holy music.” Are you able to cite a study proving this statement?

Look at religions around the world. Look at Buddhism. They chant. Look at Islam. They chant. Look at the Eastern Orthodox. Their entire liturgy is chanted. Look at historical Catholicism. Catholics have used chant in their liturgy for over a thousand years. People have often remarked on the contemplative nature of Catholicism and the deep, rich spiritual tradition that is absent from many Protestant and evangelical churches. And since Vatican II many people complain that this is being lost. I wonder why?

Fourth, what is all this about clown masses?!

I was making an analogy. Clown suits are not appropriate for mass why? Because they are made to entertain, amuse, etc. and the purpose of mass is worship, mass is the holiest thing that man can participate in on earth. In the same way, Rock music was created specifically for entertainment purposes. It doesn’t belong in the mass.