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patmiron
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Friend what is your understanding and position on Catholics and WORKS regarding one meriting salvation?
God Bless you,
Patrick aka PJM
God Bless you,
Patrick aka PJM
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Patrick,
My understanding of Catholic teaching is that works that merit are only those works done under grace, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Jon
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MT1926
Guest
Now I am one that does believe in Faith and Works through God’s good graces.
Just to clarify this isn’t works that I plan on using at the gates of heaven to pay my entry fee.
I believe like James without good works how can we ever know if we have Faith in Christ our Lord.
James 2:18
18*But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
Now if someone were to say to me that we are saved by Faith Alone and works (good or bad) will not play a role in my justification. I would not disagree with them, because Jesus does say it is possible to be saved by Faith Alone. It is totally biblical.
Matthew 17:19-20
19*Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?”20He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from hence to yonder place,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.”
But I would sure like to see you prove it.
Matthew 19:26
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MT1926
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patmiron
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I never thought of it in exactly those terms; but can agree with it, as Charity would fall under that banner.
Thanks Jon,
Patrick aka [PJM]
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patmiron
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But being “just” if I may use that term in this context? is not by itself sufficient. Here’s whyNow I am one that does believe in Faith and Works through God’s good graces.
Just to clarify this isn’t works that I plan on using at the gates of heaven to pay my entry fee.
I believe like James without good works how can we ever know if we have Faith in Christ our Lord.
James 2:18
18*But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
Now if someone were to say to me that we are saved by Faith Alone and works (good or bad) will not play a role in my justification. I would not disagree with them, because Jesus does say it is possible to be saved by Faith Alone. It is totally biblical.
Matthew 17:19-20
19*Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?”20He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from hence to yonder place,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.”
But I would sure like to see you prove it.
Matthew 19:26
My friend have you ever been exposed to the One Infallible Rule for right understanding of the Bible? Which BTW is a Catholic Book.
Never Ever; can, may or DOES
One verse, passage or teaching have the power or authority to
Invalidate, make void or override another
Verse, passage or teaching:
Were this even the slightest possibility;[it’s NOT!] it would render the entire Bible useless to teach or lean Christ Faith”
2Peter 1: 19-21
And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. [21] For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.
[Douay explanation]
[20] No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation: This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise. End Quotes
It is reasonable to define a Catholics understanding of WORKS to be CHARITY.
Some years ago I was asked by a student:
If I HAD to describe the entire message of the bible in a single word; what might that one WORD be?
I Choose LOVE. synonymous :thumbsup:with charity
Your understanding that Faith alone is sufficient is easy disproved also by the bible:
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;
Romans 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith, in all nations, for his name;
Faith is impossible without GRACE:thumbsup:
Salvation with the exception of Martyrdom can never be accomplished by a single act. Even Baptism and Martyrdom are rooted in Faith THROUGH Grace:thumbsup:
Jesus/ GOD established just one set of faith beliefs in and THROUGH his One true Church [today’s Catholic Church]. knowing that this ought to make evident what He Jesus expects, commands and protects. If as is evident there is is just one TRUE set of Faith beliefs; AND one holds to contrary positions to that one set of beliefs; one OUGHT to be able to discern with the HELP of the HS; that they are in error. Amen!
God Bless you,
Patrick aka PJM
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patmiron
Guest
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MT1926
Guest
Patrick,But being “just” if I may use that term in this context? is not by itself sufficient. Here’s why
My friend have you ever been exposed to the One Infallible Rule for right understanding of the Bible? Which BTW is a Catholic Book.
Never Ever; can, may or DOES
One verse, passage or teaching have the power or authority to
Invalidate, make void or override another
Verse, passage or teaching:
Were this even the slightest possibility;[it’s NOT!] it would render the entire Bible useless to teach or lean Christ Faith”
2Peter 1: 19-21
And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. [21] For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.
[Douay explanation]
[20] No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation: This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise. End Quotes
It is reasonable to define a Catholics understanding of WORKS to be CHARITY.
Some years ago I was asked by a student:
If I HAD to describe the entire message of the bible in a single word; what might that one WORD be?
I Choose LOVE. synonymous :thumbsup:with charity
Your understanding that Faith alone is sufficient is easy disproved also by the bible:
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;
Romans 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith, in all nations, for his name;
Faith is impossible without GRACE:thumbsup:
Salvation with the exception of Martyrdom can never be accomplished by a single act. Even Baptism and Martyrdom are rooted in Faith THROUGH Grace:thumbsup:
Jesus/ GOD established just one set of faith beliefs in and THROUGH his One true Church [today’s Catholic Church]. knowing that this ought to make evident what He Jesus expects, commands and protects. If as is evident there is is just one TRUE set of Faith beliefs; AND one holds to contrary positions to that one set of beliefs; one OUGHT to be able to discern with the HELP of the HS; that they are in error. Amen!
God Bless you,
Patrick aka PJM
Not real sure why you linked this post top me.
You do realize I agree with you that "Your understanding that Faith alone is sufficient is easy disproved also by the bible:"
I don’t believe in Faith Alone.
The verse Matthew 17:19-20 was meant as a joke thus the reason I added the
.God Bless,
Matthew 19:26
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MT1926
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guanophore
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It is the quality of that faith. Saving faith is a faith that works.
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PJM
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MY opps:blush:Patrick,
Not real sure why you linked this post top me.
You do realize I agree with you that "Your understanding that Faith alone is sufficient is easy disproved also by the bible:"
I don’t believe in Faith Alone.
The verse Matthew 17:19-20 was meant as a joke thus the reason I added the
God Bless,
Matthew 19:26
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PJM
Guest
Not sure that I understand your question?
Faith has to come from God through HIS grace.
BUT that said; God continually is challenging man to prove their true Faith.to him both by the life-choices we make and through Charity gladly extended.
While we CAN’T “work” our way into heaven; neither can we attain it without works.
God Bless you,
Patrick.
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PJM
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badnewsbarrett
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After taking another look through the argumentation of Cajetan on this very subject, I am noticing a couple of interesting things.
First- and I’ve noticed this for quite some time- Protestants have a tendency to say it is “by grace” you have been saved “through faith,” which is certainly the more familiar wording for me just based on Bible passage familiarity. I notice however that Catholics (including Cajetan, which is what just now made me think of it) have more of a tendency to say it is “by faith” and “through grace,” presumably because this affords more of an opportunity to start talking about the sacramental grace through which (or by whose instrumentality) one is supposedly saved.
Second- I’m just now noticing that Cajetan makes a key point about distinctions between types of faith, or perhaps distinctions in how the word “faith” can be used in two different Biblical contexts. It’s a little hard to follow, but I’m also looking at a lexical tool that shows me the lexical range of the word “pistis” (which is faith) and I’m not seeing much that would indicate that he has solid linguistic ground to stand on. The rhetoric is nice, but the linguistic footing does not look that stable.
Oh, by the way, I should probably mention that my general impression is that Catholics, at this time, are probably most directly indebted to Cajetan’s work in opposing Luther for the specific language that tends to be used in unraveling this particular issue. Please note how carefully I selected my words; I did not imply that doctrine changed or anything as silly as that. I said that the specific language currently used by Catholics is most directly (although not exclusively) attributable to the work of Cajetan in opposing Luther. This, at least, is my understanding.
Third- the Catholic underpinnings of the debate seem to partially hinge on different ways in which “faith” might possibly be used while Protestants don’t go as much in that direction, and then Catholics seem to camp out on “grace” as if the sacramental sense of the word is the only one worth talking about in this particular conversation. Protestants, on the other hand, can go on all day about several different kinds of grace, sometimes describing several in great detail within the Order of Salvation. It’s a curious study in contrasts.
By the way, I first noticed the “by faith, through grace” thing on my first read-through of the Catholic-Lutheran Joint Declaration on Justification. I immediately thought it looked a bit odd.
Fourth, one final point- when it comes to key passages on justification, I have noticed that the Catholic perspective typically takes it for granted that “justification” means the same thing every time the word is used, whereas a Protestant is more likely to use a lexical tool to show you that it can mean any of three different things depending on context, and then attempt to show you that it’s being used one way here and a different way there, in service of harmonizing passages that say otherwise contradictory things about faith and justification. I also observe a tendency in Catholic interpretation to allow for a “fourfold method” by which a passage, word, or phrase can mean several different things at the same time, whereas Protestants tend to look at this part of Origen’s work as something that ought to be set aside and left in the past. That particular piece of information has little to do with the overall point in question, except perhaps briefly when the various meanings of “justify” are being brought to your attention.
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MT1926
Guest
The simple definition of justification is: the action of declaring or making righteous in the sight of God.
Could you please expand on the:
“lexical tool to show you that it can mean any of three different things depending on context, and then attempt to show you that it’s being used one way here and a different way there, in service of harmonizing passages that say otherwise contradictory things about faith and justification.”
Or point me somewhere that can explain this further.
Could you give an example of this please? I am not disagreeing with you because it is hard to follow the point without an example. However, I think I a heard a great response on CAL the other day as to why Catholics sometimes read several different things into a phrase. Basically, back at the turn of the century they didn’t have distractions like we do now a days (TV, radio, movies, iphones, internet, etc.). All they had was the old testament. They lived it, knew many of it’s stories by heart, and when they were working in the fields they quite often filled their minds with those stories, instead of their facebook posts. Anyway, the point he was making was all it took was a word or a phrase for the new testament writers to get their point across. So the people could relate to and understand an entire passage or story from the old testament. Kind of like if I were to say: “Let the force be with you”, allows you to think of the Star Wars saga without me having to write out the entire story all over again.
Not sure if this is what you were talking about?
God Bless
Matthew 19:26
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PJM
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PJM
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CONTINUED FROM ABOVE POST
Also both Pope St JP II & Pope Benedict XVI have weighed in on the topic; & both of whom also Do speak for the RCC.
w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_14091998_fides-et-ratio.html
catholic.org/homily/yearoffaith/story.php?id=48623
As a FYI: Sacramental grace is of great significance to Catholic in part because unlike the other forms of grace which are strictly-GOD initiated; God permits man a role & access through several of the Seven Sacraments to HIS grace; by making Sacramental- Confession [Jn. 20:19-23] & the Eucharist [1st Cor. 11: 23-30] which can conditionally be received multiple times; with the frequency often determined by that soul; just as Jesus foresaw it.
Not only to Protestant miss much grace by their chosen unbelief; but they also quite literally Miss Jesus Himself. In the REAL Presence; attested to by five different authors of the NT.
We Catholics most often use the term “Justification” in conjunction with Protestant beliefs of “Imputed Righteousness,” as it is the most common point of dispute in understanding our religious salvation belief differences.
God Bless you, OH! BTW, please share the 3 different understandings of “Justification” so we are all on the same page.
God Bless you,
PJM*
Hmmmm. I don’t think so. I’m NOT a theologian, but I am an informed fully practicing RC. I had never heard of Cajtan until you brought him up. And YES he was an influence at the time of the reformation. But that is nearly 500 years ago; and much further study has been done on the matter. Of particular note was the Council of TRENT which does speak for the RCC. …TRENT would be a far better source of the mind & heart of the RCC on this issue.
Also both Pope St JP II & Pope Benedict XVI have weighed in on the topic; & both of whom also Do speak for the RCC.
w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_14091998_fides-et-ratio.html
catholic.org/homily/yearoffaith/story.php?id=48623
As noted earlier we Catholics too do recognize, teach & believe in different “grace-forms.” It seems to me to be a shallow understanding of the Catholic Position to attempt to lay the totality of Catholic-grace-faith beliefs on this one very important [and largely missing outside of the CC & Orthodox as well] termed “Sacramental grace”; primarily because it’s a Christ instituted package of seven gifts; aids precisely to direct and assist man’s effort to merit one’s salvation. *
As a FYI: Sacramental grace is of great significance to Catholic in part because unlike the other forms of grace which are strictly-GOD initiated; God permits man a role & access through several of the Seven Sacraments to HIS grace; by making Sacramental- Confession [Jn. 20:19-23] & the Eucharist [1st Cor. 11: 23-30] which can conditionally be received multiple times; with the frequency often determined by that soul; just as Jesus foresaw it.
Not only to Protestant miss much grace by their chosen unbelief; but they also quite literally Miss Jesus Himself. In the REAL Presence; attested to by five different authors of the NT.
And for us Catholics; the Protestant position is seen as EVEN stranger. If I’m understanding you’re position correctly? “You” [protestants] claim some right or authority to presume NOT to in an absolute sense NEED God for “you’re faith” to exist. That AFTER “you” choose God; then & only then does God have an active role in your salvation? Which BTW, follows OUR way of understanding your position on salvation as also dictating to God how He must and will save you.
The foundation for Catholic teaching rest on the premise that “TRUTH” must always be singular per defined issue. Pope Benedict XVI shared in his first public address as our THEN new Pope the following sage advice: “There cannot be your truth and my truth or there would be no truth.” The tag-line below my PJM by Bishop Sheen is another truism we hold too.
We Catholics most often use the term “Justification” in conjunction with Protestant beliefs of “Imputed Righteousness,” as it is the most common point of dispute in understanding our religious salvation belief differences.
God Bless you, OH! BTW, please share the 3 different understandings of “Justification” so we are all on the same page.
God Bless you,
PJM*
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guanophore
Guest
There wasn’t one.
The ability to have faith, and to exercies faith is a natural human function that is part of our human nature. We can put our faith in all kinds of things like power, money, etc.
In order to place our faith in God we need His supernatural grace.
I don’t like the formulation “faith plus works” I prefer “faith that works”.While we CAN’T “work” our way into heaven; neither can we attain it without works.
God Bless you,
Patrick.
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PJM
Guest
THANKS you so VERY much:thumbsup:Nice to see you got the old login back. Wow 11k posts
Matthew19:26
It was a credibility issue for me.
Catholicism I am blessed to know; comopters: not so much:shrug:
God Bless you,
PJM
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