H
hawk
Guest
Hear Hear!!!
- Status
E
Emad
Guest
I made a number of claims, which one do you want me to prove? Also remember that I am speaking from and Islamic perspective, so I will most likely show you proof by a verse or saying of the Prophet peace be upon him that aids my claim.
I
iamrefreshed
Guest
Emad. I appreciate your not wanting your religion called phoney baloney. That’s fair. But, in fairness to Catholics, what does your quoteline say about my God? Unless I miss the meaning you are comparing Jesus to Adam? Am I incorrect?
H
hawk
Guest
Yes indeed and so would we, I am refreshed!
For as Adam sundered us from God, did God incarnate rejoin us to Him.
Though Emad’s comparison is far off the mark.
A
Anderson33
Guest
Glad to see you again Mr. Gonzales …… like it or not, I have a PhD, and you do not !!! …. Maybe I am wrong here, but anyways …… as a catholic I am instructed not to brag about any academic achievements I may have …… however, I just pointed out to my academic credentials to humiliate you in the same manner you tried to do to me by underlining my “imperfect” (???) English …… very un-Christian of me, but yes, I have to admit that I did try to humiliate you ……
Sorry Mr. Gonzales, you set the tone for the conversation, so do not be surprised to hear very sarcastic and even offensive remarks from me, but of course, I will also defend my points with sound reason and logic, as far as my abilities allow me ……
On to the refutation of your message:
So you did not find the verses in the Koran in which your allah promises you to keep his scriptures free from error??
Too bad Mr. Gonzales …… and it is even worse that you do not even care to read my messages in detail …… my whole argument here is not based on what a single verse of the Koran may or may not say …… in case you have missed it, the main point of my argument has been the fallacious idea that you muslims have about god !!!
Again, I am going to repeat it now in italic bold just to make sure your eyes can clearly read it:
in case you have missed it, the main point of my argument has been the fallacious idea that you muslims have about god !!!
and to help you even more Mr. Gonzales (at last my charitable, Christian-like upbringing shows !!!) I am going to repeat once again the fallacious idea that you muslims have about god in bold (this time I am copy-pasting what I previously wrote elsewhere)
**: it is so much fun to see that you believe in a god that somehow was so weak and/or evil that he could not keep his first revelations/scriptures free from corruption, but only his alleged “last” revelation !!! …… even funnier is the fact that you muslims believe that this allah will now make good on his promise to keep his last “revelation” free from corruption, when according to your “reasoning” he could/did not keep his earlier revelations free from errors !!!
I really laugh at the concept of god that you have muslims !!!
false premises? as Homer Simpson would say DUH !!!
I am basing my whole argument on the premise that god is consistent and fair … in other words, I do not believe in a god that twists and fails to protect any of his scriptures !!! … moreover, as I have already pointed out, I laugh at your attempt to convince us Christians to believe in a god that fails to keep his earlier revelations free from corruption, but promises to keep his alleged “last revelation” free from corruption !!!
funny the way your “logic” works Gonzales !!
what is illogical and false in my idea of god Gonzales?
why shouldn’t I believe in a god that has kept his scriptures and promises free from corruption? what is so illogical about my reasoning???
of course, the answer that you will come up with will read more or less like this:
“it is illogical because the Koran says so” … **
I am not going to get my hopes so high as to think that you have understood what I wrote Mr. Gonzales, so I am going to reword part of my argumentation and just ask you three simple questions that even a 6 year old will understand:
**1.- Why should I believe in a god who was incapable of keeping his earlier scriptures free from error?
2.- Why should I believe in a god that intentionally (unintentionally?!?!?!!?) allowed evil men to corrupt his very own word in his earlier scriptures?
3.- What is so illogic about my belief that the One True God has preserved His one original message ever since He started revealing His scriptures to humanity???**
As you can see Mr. Gonzales, the core of my argumentation is not based on what I may or may not have read in the Koran …… my argumentation and criticism is totally based on your fallacious idea that god allowed corrupt men to distort his earlier revelations and/or somehow was incapable of keeping them free from corruption …… ……
Are you with me here Mr. Gonzales??? Do you understand now what I am saying ???
Are you going to give clear and concise answers to questions 1, 2, and 3???
Now that I have refuted your words Mr. Gonzales, and to make good on my promise to try to humiliate you even more, I will say this:
I can assure you that you could not even write “good morning” in my native language, let alone write a PhD thesis !!!
BTW, did you ever attend high school? Primary school?? Kinder garden???
R
r.gonzales
Guest
wow, talk about a whole lotta babble about nothing.
Anderson33:
. do you seriously think the fact that you have a phD and i don’t humiliates me??? talk about arrogance :ehh: . you have a phD… as i said in my previous post, good for you 
. if you really think that puts you above me, then that’s your self-delusion. i don’t really care much for worthless little pieces of paper.
Anderson33:
Anderson33:
hmmm… let’s see here. let me remind you of your first post:
Anderson33:
premise 1. the torah (Jewish sacred scriptures) and the gospel (Christian sacred scriptures) ever considered as being from the one true God by muhhamad/quoran/islam. why? because it’s clearly written in the Quran, so dr. anderson says…
premise 2. God promise to keep His scriptures intact, corruption-free. why? because it’s clearly written in the Quran, or so dr. anderson claims…
thus 3. if the muslims claim that the bible and torah are corrupted, then allah/god must be a very weak being, as he somehow could not keep his very own scriptures free from errors and corruption !!
now, you made two claims here but did not provide any evidence for them (saying that it’s written in the Quran while not giving references is not evidence). so, i’m calling on you to back up your claims. if you can’t, then you need to get down off your high-horse because you clearly don’t know what the heck you’re talking about.
if, and only if you answer this, then we can procede to deal with the rest of your post.
have a nice day mr. anderson :tiphat: , i await your evidences.
wow. let’s see…
- you’re not supposed to brag. yet you do.
- you’re not even sure if i have a phD or not, yet proceed to claim that i don’t.
- you think that having a little piece of paper humiliates me.
. do you seriously think the fact that you have a phD and i don’t humiliates me??? talk about arrogance :ehh: . you have a phD… as i said in my previous post, good for you . if you really think that puts you above me, then that’s your self-delusion. i don’t really care much for worthless little pieces of paper.
as i mentioned, just in case you didn’t understand it the first time, i can find the verses quite easily and know what verses you mistakenly think support your claim. but as mentioned, the burden of proof is upon the claimant. i already told you you were wrong in your claim. so, just as Allah says in the Quran, i’m challenging you to “bring your evidence if indeed you are truthful.”
hmmm… let’s see here. let me remind you of your first post:
let’s take a look at your logic (or lack of) here.
premise 1. the torah (Jewish sacred scriptures) and the gospel (Christian sacred scriptures) ever considered as being from the one true God by muhhamad/quoran/islam. why? because it’s clearly written in the Quran, so dr. anderson says…
premise 2. God promise to keep His scriptures intact, corruption-free. why? because it’s clearly written in the Quran, or so dr. anderson claims…
thus 3. if the muslims claim that the bible and torah are corrupted, then allah/god must be a very weak being, as he somehow could not keep his very own scriptures free from errors and corruption !!
now, you made two claims here but did not provide any evidence for them (saying that it’s written in the Quran while not giving references is not evidence). so, i’m calling on you to back up your claims. if you can’t, then you need to get down off your high-horse because you clearly don’t know what the heck you’re talking about.
if, and only if you answer this, then we can procede to deal with the rest of your post.
have a nice day mr. anderson :tiphat: , i await your evidences.
T
The_Eurasian
Guest
Anderson, Gonzales
To search for a string of words, you can let google treat the string of words including the spaces as though they were one word by ENCLOSING THE ENTIRE STRING WITH QUOTATION MARKS.
For example:
Google -------- muhammad “protect scriptures from error” koran
To search for a string of words, you can let google treat the string of words including the spaces as though they were one word by ENCLOSING THE ENTIRE STRING WITH QUOTATION MARKS.
For example:
Google -------- muhammad “protect scriptures from error” koran
R
r.gonzales
Guest
The Eurasian:
thank you for the advice. however, i know how to use google. my asking him to bring his evidence is done with purpose. i already mentioned that i know the verses and can find them very easily (without google, i might add).
R
Reuben_J
Guest
WHY DO MUSLIMS BELIEVE THE TEXT OF THE BIBLE HAS BEEN CORRUPTED?
WHY do YOU believe the Bible text has been corrupted?
WHY do you believe Ibn-Khazem rather then the witness of the Quran,
the word of Muhammad, and these 10 great Muslim scholars who
all believed the Bible texts to be truthful?
- The Quran declares the Bible to be a true revelation of
God and demands faith in the Bible.
Sura 2:40-42,126,136,285; 3:3,71,93; 4:47,136; 5:47-51,
69,71-72; 6:91; 10:37,94; 21:7; 29:45,46; 35:31; 46:11
a. All these above texts presuppose the availability of the
true revelation of God to the people of Muhammad’s day.
Sura 3:71,93; 10:94; 21:71
b. A true Muslim is obliged to believe in all the
revelations of God. Sura 2:136; 4:136; 29:46
c. The Quran makes no distinction between God’s revelations
Sura 2:136 - The Quran claims that NO ONE can change the Word of God.
Sura 6:34; 10:34
- The Bible and the Quran do not agree.
The Bible and the Quran differ widely on fundamental concepts of faith and practice.
- Since the Bible existed before the Quran the burden of proof
is upon the Muslim to prove that the Bible is incorrect AND
that the Quran is correct.
a. The Bible was completed 500 years before the Quran was
revealed to Muhammad. If someone today wrote a book that contradicts a historical document written at the time of an event that took place in 1497 the person who wrote the
second book would have to be able to prove the older
document was false AND also prove its facts were true.
b. The document written at the time of the event would not
have to prove itself against a latter document. This is
neither logical, rational or true to the principles of
the science of history.
c. Merely proving that the older document was not accurate
also does not by default mean the newer document is true.
It must stand on its own and prove itself.
- In 1064, Ibn-Khazem, FIRST charged that the Bible had been
corrupted and the Bible falsified. This charge was to defend
Islam against Christianity because Ibn-Khazem come upon
differences and contradiction between the Bible and the
Quran. Believing, by faith that the Quran was true, the Bible
must then be false. He said, “Since the Quran must be true it
must be the conflicting Gospel texts that are false. But
Muhammad tells us to respect the Gospel. Therefore, the
present text must have been falsified by the Christians after
the time of Muhammad.”
His argument was not based on any evidence or historical facts but only on his personal faith, reasoning and desire to
safeguard the Quran.
This led him to teach that, “The Christians lost the revealed
Gospel except for a few traces which God has left intact as
argument against them.”
- Many great MUSLIM teachers DO NOT believe the Bible has been corrupted and ACCEPT the authenticity of our PRESENT New Testament texts.
a. Ali al-Tabari (died 855) accepted the Gospel texts
b. Amr al-Ghakhiz (869) " " " "
c. BUKHARI (810-870) " " " "
(he gathered some of the earliest tradition of Islam
quoted the Quran itself to support his belief in the text
of the Bible Sura 3:72,78)
d. Al-Mas’udi (956) " " " "
e. Abu Ali Husain Bin Sina (1037)" " "
f. AL-GHAZZALI (1111) " " " "
(probably the greatest Muslim scholar he lived after Ibn-
Khazem but did not accept his teachings)
g. Ibn-Khaldun (1406) " " " " " "
(he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his
teachings but rather believed the earlier Islamic
teachers.)
h. Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan, founder of the Aligarh College
“In the opinion of us Mohammedans it is not proved that
corruption (tahrif-i-lafzi)…was practiced.”
i. Fakhruddin Razi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, a nephew
of Muhammed, “The Jews and early Christians were
suspected of altering the text of the Taurat and Injil;
but in the opinion of eminent doctors and theologians it
was not practicable thus to corrupt the text, because
those Scriptures were generally known and widely
circulated, having been handed down from generation to
generation.”
WHY do YOU believe the Bible text has been corrupted?
WHY do you believe Ibn-Khazem rather then the witness of the Quran,
the word of Muhammad, and these 10 great Muslim scholars who
all believed the Bible texts to be truthful?
E
Emad
Guest
Rueben in blue
Emad in black
Rueben it is funny. A while back a Christian on the WhyIslam forum posted the exact same thing that you posted below. If you don’t mind please tell me your source.
69,71-72; 6:91; 10:37,94; 21:7; 29:45,46; 35:31; 46:11
Yes that is true, as Muslims we have to believe in the original Bible revealed to Jesus peace be upon him. Anyone who doesn’t is no longer a Muslim. By the way I have looked up all of the verses you quoted above. The following have nothing to do with previous scriptures: 2:126 5:71, 72 29:45 46:11 I don’t know why you mentioned these verses.
a. All these above texts presuppose the availability of the
true revelation of God to the people of Muhammad’s day.
Sura 3:71,93; 10:94; 21:71
Yes however we believe that many of the people of the book distorted it and changed parts of it. Some of the verses you quoted above are irrelevent to the topic at hand. For example 21:71 says " And We rescued him and Lot (and brought them) to the land which We have blessed for (all) peoples." Did you make a mistake and mean to quote another verse? I hope so, if not that means you didn’t even read what you posted. There are many verses in the Quran that show that the books were corrupted.
c. The Quran makes no distinction between God’s revelations
Sura 2:136
This verse doesn’t say that the Quran makes no distinction between God’s revelation it says we make no distinction between Gods Messengers, there are also other verses similar to this that make that clear.
6:34 "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers. " This verse clearly shows that the word Kalimat here means the decision and decreed of God to send aid to His messengers
10:34 Again this verse has nothing to do with the issue at hand. I have no idea why you quoted it. It reads "Say: “Of your ‘partners’, can any originate creation and repeat it?” Say: “It is Allah Who originates creation and repeats it: then how are ye deluded away (from the truth)?”
Did you get this from answering Islam?? By the way please show me the exact quotes of each of those scholars you quoted where they say that the Bible was not corrupted. And Ibn Abbas was not the nephew of the Prophet peace be upon him. Your article is full of misquotations, misinformation, and mistakes.
Emad in black
Rueben it is funny. A while back a Christian on the WhyIslam forum posted the exact same thing that you posted below. If you don’t mind please tell me your source.
- The Quran declares the Bible to be a true revelation of
God and demands faith in the Bible.
69,71-72; 6:91; 10:37,94; 21:7; 29:45,46; 35:31; 46:11
Yes that is true, as Muslims we have to believe in the original Bible revealed to Jesus peace be upon him. Anyone who doesn’t is no longer a Muslim. By the way I have looked up all of the verses you quoted above. The following have nothing to do with previous scriptures: 2:126 5:71, 72 29:45 46:11 I don’t know why you mentioned these verses.
a. All these above texts presuppose the availability of the
true revelation of God to the people of Muhammad’s day.
Sura 3:71,93; 10:94; 21:71
Yes however we believe that many of the people of the book distorted it and changed parts of it. Some of the verses you quoted above are irrelevent to the topic at hand. For example 21:71 says " And We rescued him and Lot (and brought them) to the land which We have blessed for (all) peoples." Did you make a mistake and mean to quote another verse? I hope so, if not that means you didn’t even read what you posted. There are many verses in the Quran that show that the books were corrupted.
c. The Quran makes no distinction between God’s revelations
Sura 2:136
This verse doesn’t say that the Quran makes no distinction between God’s revelation it says we make no distinction between Gods Messengers, there are also other verses similar to this that make that clear.
- The Quran claims that NO ONE can change the Word of God.
Sura 6:34; 10:34
6:34 "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers. " This verse clearly shows that the word Kalimat here means the decision and decreed of God to send aid to His messengers
10:34 Again this verse has nothing to do with the issue at hand. I have no idea why you quoted it. It reads "Say: “Of your ‘partners’, can any originate creation and repeat it?” Say: “It is Allah Who originates creation and repeats it: then how are ye deluded away (from the truth)?”
Did you get this from answering Islam?? By the way please show me the exact quotes of each of those scholars you quoted where they say that the Bible was not corrupted. And Ibn Abbas was not the nephew of the Prophet peace be upon him. Your article is full of misquotations, misinformation, and mistakes.
G
Ghosty
Guest
Herein lies the problem: Prove it.
You can only do so by relying on the Quran, but the Quran relies on the distortion of Scripture being true in order for itself to be true and necessary. In other words, the ONLY testimony that the Quran can give is that Scripture is distorted. We need OUTSIDE proof, seperate from the Quran, to validate the Muslim claim.
For example, you can’t ask a liar if he’s lying. If he is actually an honest man, he will say he is not a liar, and if he is a liar, he will say that he is not a liar. Likewise, if the Quran is truth it will say it is, and if it is a lie it will say it is the truth.
The Scriptures of the Jews do not rely on the writings of the Jews to validate them. The EXISTANCE of the Jews is proof of the Scriptures of the Jews, because the Scriptures claim that God promised them survival as a unique people and culture for all time. No other contemporary people or culture of theirs have survived on any continent. Therefore, while it’s not absolute proof, it does strongly substantiate their claim, and encourages us to look deeper at their other claims. One of their claims, incidently, is that a Messiah will come (around the time that Jesus was born, though later Jews have revised this prediction) and that he will bring the final revelation for all people.
Likewise, the Scriptures of the Christians do not rely upon themselves for validation. There are numerous writings outside of Scripture, some by non-Christians (Josephus, Talmud) that verify the existance and practices of the early Christians. Furthermore, non-Scriptural writings by people who personally knew the Apostles record their teachings as identical to what we find in Scripture, and identical to the Catholic Church today. Christian Scripture states that this is the final revelation for all people.
Now fast-forward 600 years and we have a man who claims to have a message from God, but this message absolutely depends on both the Jewish and Christian Scriptures being distorted in order to be acceptable. This man, and his followers, have not provided any proof (to my knowledge) that these Scriptures are distorted, but rather depend on us taking Mohammed’s word for it.
Please provide proof of the distortion of that you claim from outside of the Quran. When you’ve done that, we can begin to address the issue on reasonable terms.
G
Ghosty
Guest
Weird, the post displaying for me is not mine, nor does it relate to this thread. I did not make any post about any woman or any trial. I have no idea what happened.
R
r.gonzales
Guest
let’s take a look at the references reuben provided so those who don’t know what the verses say can see how true this claim is. comments will follow the presentation of the verses.
2:40-42. Allah, honoured and dignified, says, “o children of israel, remember My blessing that I bestowed upon you and fulfill My covenant, I will fulfill your covenant, and Myself alone should you fear. and believe in what I revealed as an attestation for what is with you and do not be the first of the disbelievers in it. and do not buy My verses for a small price, and Myself alone should you fear. and do not dress the truth in falsehood and conceal the truth while you know [it].”
2:126. Allah says, “and (remember) when abraham said, ‘my Lord, make this city peaceful and provide its people from the fruits, whoever believed from them in Allah and the last day.’ He (Allah) said, 'and whoever disbelieved, then I will grant him enjoyment for a short while, then force him to the punishment of the fire and what an evil fate [it is]!” (as emad pointed out, this verse has nothing to do with the revelations sent down to the people of the Book. not quite sure which verse(s) you were intending to refer to, as the verses before and after also speak of prophet abraham.)
2:136. Allah says, “say: we believed in Allah and what was revealed to us, what He revealed to abraham, ishmael, isaac, jacob and the tribes [f israel], and what was given to moses and jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. we do not differentiate between anyone of them and we are muslims (i.e., those who submit) to Him.”
2:285. Allah says, “the messenger believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, as did the believers. each believed in Allah, His angels, His Books and His messengers. we do not differentiate between anyone of His messengers and they say, 'we heard and we obeyed, (we ask for) you forgiveness, our Lord. and to you is the outcome.”
3:3. Allah says, “He sent down the Book upon you in truth as a confirmation for what is before it and He revealed the torah and the gospel.”
3:71. Allah says, “o people of the Book why do you dress the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know [it]?”
3:93. Allah says, “all of the food used to be lawful for the children of israel except what israel made forbidden for himself before the torah was sent down. say, ‘come with the torah and recite it if you are truthful.’”
4:47. Allah says, “o those who were given the Book, believe in what We sent down as a confirmation for what is with you before we erase faces and drive them upon their backs or curse them just as we cursed the companions of the sabbath, and Allah’s command was carried out.”
4:136. Allah says, “o those who believed, believe in Allah and His messenger (muhammad) and the Book that He sent down upon His messenger and the Book that He revealed before and whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His Books, His messengers and the last day, then he has strayed and far straying.”
5:47-51. Allah says, “and let the people of the gospel judge by what Allah revealed in it and whoever does not judge by what Allah revealed, then those, they are the sinners. and We revealed to you the Book in truth as an attestation for what is before it from the Book and as a guardian over it. so, judge between them by what Allah revealed and do not follow their desires away from what came to you of the truth. for each of you We made a law and a way. if Allah willed He would have made you one nation, however, [He did not] in order to test you in what He gave you. so race to the good things. to Allah is your return, collectively, then He will inform you of what you used to differ about. and judge between themby what Allah revealed and do not follow their desires and beware of them in case they tempt you away from some of what Allah revealed to you. so, if they turn away, then know certainly Allah intends to afflict them with some of their sins. and surely, many of the people are certainly sinners. is it then the judgement of [the days of] ignorance they seek? and who is better than Allah in judgement for a people who are certain [in faith]. o those who believed do not take the jews and the christians as allies. they are allies of one another. and whoever turns to them from you, then indeed he is from them. surely, Allah does not guide the oppressive people.”
2:40-42. Allah, honoured and dignified, says, “o children of israel, remember My blessing that I bestowed upon you and fulfill My covenant, I will fulfill your covenant, and Myself alone should you fear. and believe in what I revealed as an attestation for what is with you and do not be the first of the disbelievers in it. and do not buy My verses for a small price, and Myself alone should you fear. and do not dress the truth in falsehood and conceal the truth while you know [it].”
2:126. Allah says, “and (remember) when abraham said, ‘my Lord, make this city peaceful and provide its people from the fruits, whoever believed from them in Allah and the last day.’ He (Allah) said, 'and whoever disbelieved, then I will grant him enjoyment for a short while, then force him to the punishment of the fire and what an evil fate [it is]!” (as emad pointed out, this verse has nothing to do with the revelations sent down to the people of the Book. not quite sure which verse(s) you were intending to refer to, as the verses before and after also speak of prophet abraham.)
2:136. Allah says, “say: we believed in Allah and what was revealed to us, what He revealed to abraham, ishmael, isaac, jacob and the tribes [f israel], and what was given to moses and jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. we do not differentiate between anyone of them and we are muslims (i.e., those who submit) to Him.”
2:285. Allah says, “the messenger believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, as did the believers. each believed in Allah, His angels, His Books and His messengers. we do not differentiate between anyone of His messengers and they say, 'we heard and we obeyed, (we ask for) you forgiveness, our Lord. and to you is the outcome.”
3:3. Allah says, “He sent down the Book upon you in truth as a confirmation for what is before it and He revealed the torah and the gospel.”
3:71. Allah says, “o people of the Book why do you dress the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know [it]?”
3:93. Allah says, “all of the food used to be lawful for the children of israel except what israel made forbidden for himself before the torah was sent down. say, ‘come with the torah and recite it if you are truthful.’”
4:47. Allah says, “o those who were given the Book, believe in what We sent down as a confirmation for what is with you before we erase faces and drive them upon their backs or curse them just as we cursed the companions of the sabbath, and Allah’s command was carried out.”
4:136. Allah says, “o those who believed, believe in Allah and His messenger (muhammad) and the Book that He sent down upon His messenger and the Book that He revealed before and whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His Books, His messengers and the last day, then he has strayed and far straying.”
5:47-51. Allah says, “and let the people of the gospel judge by what Allah revealed in it and whoever does not judge by what Allah revealed, then those, they are the sinners. and We revealed to you the Book in truth as an attestation for what is before it from the Book and as a guardian over it. so, judge between them by what Allah revealed and do not follow their desires away from what came to you of the truth. for each of you We made a law and a way. if Allah willed He would have made you one nation, however, [He did not] in order to test you in what He gave you. so race to the good things. to Allah is your return, collectively, then He will inform you of what you used to differ about. and judge between themby what Allah revealed and do not follow their desires and beware of them in case they tempt you away from some of what Allah revealed to you. so, if they turn away, then know certainly Allah intends to afflict them with some of their sins. and surely, many of the people are certainly sinners. is it then the judgement of [the days of] ignorance they seek? and who is better than Allah in judgement for a people who are certain [in faith]. o those who believed do not take the jews and the christians as allies. they are allies of one another. and whoever turns to them from you, then indeed he is from them. surely, Allah does not guide the oppressive people.”
R
r.gonzales
Guest
5:69. Allah says, “surely, those who believed and those who were jews and the sabians and the christians, whoever believed in Allah, the last day and did righteous [deeds], then there is no fear upon them and they will not grieve.”
5:71-72. Allah says, “and they reckoned that no dissension exists, so they became blind and deaf. Allah forgave them, then many of them became blind and deaf. and Allah is a Seer of what they do. certainly those who said, ‘surely, Allah is the messiah, jesus son of mary,’ had disbelieved. and the messiah said, 'o children of israel, worship Allah - my Lord and your Lord. surely, whoever associates [partners] with Allah, then Allah has forbidden paradise for him and his abode is the fire. and the oppressors have nothing of helpers.”
6:91. Allah says, “and they did not value Allah as He should be valued when they said, ‘Allah did not reveal anything upon a human.’ say: who revealed the Book that moses came with as a guiding light for the people, which you made into papersheets, revealing [some of] them and hiding many. and you were taught what you and your fathers did not know.’ say, ‘Allah.’ then leave them playing in their discussion.”
10:37. Allah says, “and it is not possible that this Quran be invented by other than Allah. but [it is] affirmation of what is before it and an elaboration of the Book containing no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.”
10:94. Allah says, “so, if you are in doubt about what We revealed to you, then ask those who read the Book before you. certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, so do not be from the doubters.”
21:7. Allah says, “and We did not send before you except men, to whom We revealed. so, ask the people of remembrace if you do not know.”
29:45-46. Allah says, “recite what is revealed to you of the Book and establish the prayer. surely, the prayer prohibits you from indecency and evil. and certainly, Allah’s remembrance is greater. and Allah knows what you do. only argue with the people of the Book with that which is better, except those from them who oppressed. and say: we believed in the One who revealed to us and revealed to you; our deity and your deity is one and we are muslims (those who submit) to Him.”
35:31. Allah says, “and that which We have revealed to you of the Book, it is the truth, as a attestation for what is before it. surely, Allah is certainly Aware and a Seer of His servants.”
46:11. Allah says, “and those who disbelieved said to those who believed, ‘if it was good, they would not have beat us to it.’ and if they are not guided by it, then they will say, ‘this is an ancient lie.’”
now, reuben’s post claims:
contrary to what my brother emad mentioned, this is not true. and to see why, one must first understand what the bible is - a book compiled of a number of books (which varies depending on which version of the bible you’re looking at). the bible is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran, rather, the tawrah (torah), the injeel (gospel) and the zuboor (psalms) are. of the these three Books named in the Quran, only two of them (or at least, what’s left of two of them) can be found in today’s bible; the torah and the psalms. the gospel mentioned in the Quran is a Book that was revealed to jesus the messiah. it was a Book of guiding light for the people jesus was sent to. the gospels found in today’s bible are four different accounts of jesus’ life and ministry; a far cry from what the original gospel was supposed to be.
so, taking this into account, the Quran does not demand faith in the bible. what it does demand faith in, however, are the revelations sent down before the revelation of the Quran; and from the ones that Allah mentioned by name are the torah, the gospel (of jesus - not of matthew, mark, luke or john) and the psalms.
more to come regarding the points mentioned in reuben’s post. so, stay tuned
5:71-72. Allah says, “and they reckoned that no dissension exists, so they became blind and deaf. Allah forgave them, then many of them became blind and deaf. and Allah is a Seer of what they do. certainly those who said, ‘surely, Allah is the messiah, jesus son of mary,’ had disbelieved. and the messiah said, 'o children of israel, worship Allah - my Lord and your Lord. surely, whoever associates [partners] with Allah, then Allah has forbidden paradise for him and his abode is the fire. and the oppressors have nothing of helpers.”
6:91. Allah says, “and they did not value Allah as He should be valued when they said, ‘Allah did not reveal anything upon a human.’ say: who revealed the Book that moses came with as a guiding light for the people, which you made into papersheets, revealing [some of] them and hiding many. and you were taught what you and your fathers did not know.’ say, ‘Allah.’ then leave them playing in their discussion.”
10:37. Allah says, “and it is not possible that this Quran be invented by other than Allah. but [it is] affirmation of what is before it and an elaboration of the Book containing no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.”
10:94. Allah says, “so, if you are in doubt about what We revealed to you, then ask those who read the Book before you. certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, so do not be from the doubters.”
21:7. Allah says, “and We did not send before you except men, to whom We revealed. so, ask the people of remembrace if you do not know.”
29:45-46. Allah says, “recite what is revealed to you of the Book and establish the prayer. surely, the prayer prohibits you from indecency and evil. and certainly, Allah’s remembrance is greater. and Allah knows what you do. only argue with the people of the Book with that which is better, except those from them who oppressed. and say: we believed in the One who revealed to us and revealed to you; our deity and your deity is one and we are muslims (those who submit) to Him.”
35:31. Allah says, “and that which We have revealed to you of the Book, it is the truth, as a attestation for what is before it. surely, Allah is certainly Aware and a Seer of His servants.”
46:11. Allah says, “and those who disbelieved said to those who believed, ‘if it was good, they would not have beat us to it.’ and if they are not guided by it, then they will say, ‘this is an ancient lie.’”
now, reuben’s post claims:
Reuben J said:
contrary to what my brother emad mentioned, this is not true. and to see why, one must first understand what the bible is - a book compiled of a number of books (which varies depending on which version of the bible you’re looking at). the bible is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran, rather, the tawrah (torah), the injeel (gospel) and the zuboor (psalms) are. of the these three Books named in the Quran, only two of them (or at least, what’s left of two of them) can be found in today’s bible; the torah and the psalms. the gospel mentioned in the Quran is a Book that was revealed to jesus the messiah. it was a Book of guiding light for the people jesus was sent to. the gospels found in today’s bible are four different accounts of jesus’ life and ministry; a far cry from what the original gospel was supposed to be.
so, taking this into account, the Quran does not demand faith in the bible. what it does demand faith in, however, are the revelations sent down before the revelation of the Quran; and from the ones that Allah mentioned by name are the torah, the gospel (of jesus - not of matthew, mark, luke or john) and the psalms.
more to come regarding the points mentioned in reuben’s post. so, stay tuned
E
Emad
Guest
R gonzales blue
Emad black
contrary to what my brother emad mentioned, this is not true. and to see why, one must first understand what the bible is - a book compiled of a number of books (which varies depending on which version of the bible you’re looking at). the bible is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran, rather, the tawrah (torah), the injeel (gospel) and the zuboor (psalms) are.
Sorry when I used the word Bible I meant the original book revealed to Jesus peace be upon him called the Injeel.
Emad black
contrary to what my brother emad mentioned, this is not true. and to see why, one must first understand what the bible is - a book compiled of a number of books (which varies depending on which version of the bible you’re looking at). the bible is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran, rather, the tawrah (torah), the injeel (gospel) and the zuboor (psalms) are.
Sorry when I used the word Bible I meant the original book revealed to Jesus peace be upon him called the Injeel.
S
Shenango
Guest
S
Shenango
Guest
You’ve got to be really careful about these things, brother. :tsktsk:Sorry when I used the word Bible I meant the original book revealed to Jesus peace be upon him called the Injeel.
G
Ghosty
Guest
Herein lies the problem: Prove it.
You can only do so by relying on the Quran, but the Quran relies on the distortion of Scripture being true in order for itself to be true and necessary. In other words, the ONLY testimony that the Quran can give is that Scripture is distorted. We need OUTSIDE proof, seperate from the Quran, to validate the Muslim claim.
For example, you can’t ask a liar if he’s lying. If he is actually an honest man, he will say he is not a liar, and if he is a liar, he will say that he is not a liar. Likewise, if the Quran is truth it will say it is, and if it is a lie it will say it is the truth.
The Scriptures of the Jews do not rely on the writings of the Jews to validate them. The EXISTANCE of the Jews is proof of the Scriptures of the Jews, because the Scriptures claim that God promised them survival as a unique people and culture for all time. No other contemporary people or culture of theirs have survived on any continent. Therefore, while it’s not absolute proof, it does strongly substantiate their claim, and encourages us to look deeper at their other claims. One of their claims, incidently, is that a Messiah will come (around the time that Jesus was born, though later Jews have revised this prediction) and that he will bring the final revelation for all people.
Likewise, the Scriptures of the Christians do not rely upon themselves for validation. There are numerous writings outside of Scripture, some by non-Christians (Josephus, Talmud) that verify the existance and practices of the early Christians. Furthermore, non-Scriptural writings by people who personally knew the Apostles record their teachings as identical to what we find in Scripture, and identical to the Catholic Church today. Christian Scripture states that this is the final revelation for all people.
Now fast-forward 600 years and we have a man who claims to have a message from God, but this message absolutely depends on both the Jewish and Christian Scriptures being distorted in order to be acceptable. This man, and his followers, have not provided any proof (to my knowledge) that these Scriptures are distorted, but rather depend on us taking Mohammed’s word for it.
Please provide proof of the distortion of that you claim from outside of the Quran. When you’ve done that, we can address the issue on reasonable terms.
G
Ghosty
Guest
Prove this book existed. The people who KNEW the Apostles record no such writing, and the non-Christian writings that discuss Jesus describe no such writing. Prove that such a work existed from outside the Quran.
R
r.gonzales
Guest
Reuben J:
Reuben J:
Reuben J:
Reuben J:
as for the verses that mention no changer for Allah’s words, then only 18:27 refers to a revealed Book, the Quran. whereas the others all refer to Allah’s promises of help for His righteous servants, the foremost among them, His prophets and messengers. and this can clearly be seen by the context of the verses, as well as by checking the Quranic exegesis of them.
more to come…
while these 4 references imply the availability of previous revelations during prophet muhammad’s time, they also indicate that whatever remained of Allah’s previous revelations had been distorted, especially with 3:71 & 3:93. and there are other verses, as well as authentic narrations of incidents that took place between prophet muhammad and some of the jews of madeenah to support this - and if Allah willed, these will be presented later.
Reuben J:
as muslims, we believe in all of the revealed Books that Allah sent down to His prophets and messengers. this means that we do not deny that they were sent down and revealed and that we believe in the truth that remains in them, especially with respect to the main message all the prophets and messengers were sent with; to worship Allah alone, without ascribing any partners to Him in His divinty and right to worship (whether it be claiming He has a son, that He is one of three, or claiming that you are worshipping or calling upon others as intercessors between you and Allah, or anything of the like).
Reuben J:
“them” in the verse does not only refer to the revelations it refers to both Allah’s prophets and messengers and to what was revealed to them. as muslims we believe in all of them and do not reject any of them, unlike the chrisitans who rejected muhammad and the Quran and the jews who rejected both muhammad and jesus, as well as the books that they were sent with - not to mention the fact that they killed some of their other prophets that were sent to them.
Reuben J:
correct to some extent. Allah says, “and certainly messengers before you have been belied, and they endured what they were belied for and they were harmed until Our help came to them. and there is no changer for Allah’s words. and certainly some information of those who were sent has come to you.” (6:34) and He says, “and your Lord’s word is completed, truthfully and justly. there is no changer for His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.” (6:115) and He says, “and recite what is revealed to you of your Lord’s Book. there is no changer for His words and you will not find a refuge besides Him.” (18:27). i’m not sure how 10:34 comes into this, since it says, “say, ‘is there from your partners who initiates the creation, then repeats it?’ say, ‘Allah initiates the creation, then repeats it. then how are you deluded?’”
as for the verses that mention no changer for Allah’s words, then only 18:27 refers to a revealed Book, the Quran. whereas the others all refer to Allah’s promises of help for His righteous servants, the foremost among them, His prophets and messengers. and this can clearly be seen by the context of the verses, as well as by checking the Quranic exegesis of them.
more to come…
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