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Reuben_J
Guest
- Status
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Reuben_J
Guest
r.gonzales:
it was a Book of guiding light for the people jesus was sent to. the gospels found in today’s bible are four different accounts of jesus’ life and ministry; a far cry from what the original gospel was supposed to be.
Can you please tell me what is the original gospel supposed to be; how it looks like and what is its content?
Peace.
Reuben
it was a Book of guiding light for the people jesus was sent to. the gospels found in today’s bible are four different accounts of jesus’ life and ministry; a far cry from what the original gospel was supposed to be.
Can you please tell me what is the original gospel supposed to be; how it looks like and what is its content?
Peace.
Reuben
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Anderson33
Guest
It is my pleasure to toy with ignorant people like you Mr. Gonzales … I already knew you were not very well read, as the “mal-functioning” of your brain (in case you have one) shows …wow, talk about a whole lotta babble about nothing.
wow. let’s see…
to be completely honest, no, i don’t have a phD. heck, i didn’t even graduate from a post secondary institute. but, if you think that’s supposed to humiliate me, think again. all your phD proves at this point is that you spent a whole load of money for nothing.
- you’re not supposed to brag. yet you do.
- you’re not even sure if i have a phD or not, yet proceed to claim that i don’t.
- you think that having a little piece of paper humiliates me.
. do you seriously think the fact that you have a phD and i don’t humiliates me??? talk about arrogance :ehh: . you have a phD… as i said in my previous post, good for you
. if you really think that puts you above me, then that’s your self-delusion. i don’t really care much for worthless little pieces of paper.
as i mentioned, just in case you didn’t understand it the first time, i can find the verses quite easily and know what verses you mistakenly think support your claim. but as mentioned, the burden of proof is upon the claimant. i already told you you were wrong in your claim. so, just as Allah says in the Quran, i’m challenging you to “bring your evidence if indeed you are truthful.”
hmmm… let’s see here. let me remind you of your first post:
let’s take a look at your logic (or lack of) here.
premise 1. the torah (Jewish sacred scriptures) and the gospel (Christian sacred scriptures) ever considered as being from the one true God by muhhamad/quoran/islam. why? because it’s clearly written in the Quran, so dr. anderson says…
premise 2. God promise to keep His scriptures intact, corruption-free. why? because it’s clearly written in the Quran, or so dr. anderson claims…
thus 3. if the muslims claim that the bible and torah are corrupted, then allah/god must be a very weak being, as he somehow could not keep his very own scriptures free from errors and corruption !!
now, you made two claims here but did not provide any evidence for them (saying that it’s written in the Quran while not giving references is not evidence). so, i’m calling on you to back up your claims. if you can’t, then you need to get down off your high-horse because you clearly don’t know what the heck you’re talking about.
if, and only if you answer this, then we can procede to deal with the rest of your post.
have a nice day mr. anderson :tiphat: , i await your evidences.
You muslims continue parroting the fallacious idea that the bible is corrupted, yet you fail to produce the evidence !!!
So much fun refuting you Mr. Gonzales !!
Anyways, your post is just a bunch of nonsensical garbage …. If you want me to continue destroying your argument, simply respond the following questions in a very straight forward manner:
Were the gospel and the torah ever considered as being the word of god?
If you say so, present the evidence
Are the gospel and the torah corrupted now?
If you say so, present the evidence
Very easy questions for a very limited mind like your Mr. Gonzales !!!
Once you answer these very easy questions, then I will proceed to logically refute your nonsensical argument !!!
It will be so much fun !!
If you are going to answer with more garbage, then that will be it Mr. second grader !!!
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Ghosty
Guest
Anderson33: Please refrain from personal attacks, or you will be reported and likely suspended. You are doing nothing to add to the discussion by calling people simple-minded. You are, in fact, diminishing the credibility of the other Catholics on this website.
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Anderson33
Guest
Mr. Ghosty, unless you are a moderator, I am politely asking you to refrain from warning me in public … if you are not a moderator, you do not have the right to do so …… I admit to being very un-Christian and very uncharitable … however, and you can check my posts, I have been responding like this because I have been attacked first … nothing more, nothing less …
Moreover, if someone is so narrow-minded as to classify OTHER Catholics as rude and impolite just because Anderson33 is rude and impolite, well, that just shows you the kind of narrow-mindedness of the particular someone ……
in my opinion, you are being very unfair by warning me in public IN CASE you are not a moderator …… since you are being unfair, and you seemingly are catholic, would it be accurate on the part of someone else to state that OTHER catholics are as unfair as you are???
Now, speaking of fairness, since you have warned me in public without the right to do so and since apparently you are catholic, can you also post a message reprimanding in public the particular muslim I am dealing with as he has also tried to insult me? (Not that I have felt insulted, but he definitely has tried !!!) …. After all, you are trying to set a good example, and since fairness is an attribute of catholics, then I would like you to show that fairness here ……
Could you do that for me???
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Ghosty
Guest
Anderson33: I can only speak on what I see, and I see you consistantly slinging mud. I’m not going to get into a “he/she started it” debate; it’s irrelevant. I have not seen anyone speaking to you in the manner you’ve been speaking to them, so I can’t address that.
I’m correcting you publically because your actions are a public embarrassment to the forums and its users. I’m trying to save some face with our guests while helping you at the same time. I don’t see how I “don’t have the right” to stand up publically in this manner. In fact, I’m trying to help you in preventing you from walking down a path I’ve seen numberous other people walk down, and subsequently get banned.
If you are indeed an adult with a doctorate then you should know how to comport yourself publically. I’m not a moderator, but it doesn’t take a moderator to recognize and address poor behavior. We are not children on a playground, acting badly when the teachers aren’t in view. We are adults and we have a duty to maintain our composure regardless of formal supervision.
I’m correcting you publically because your actions are a public embarrassment to the forums and its users. I’m trying to save some face with our guests while helping you at the same time. I don’t see how I “don’t have the right” to stand up publically in this manner. In fact, I’m trying to help you in preventing you from walking down a path I’ve seen numberous other people walk down, and subsequently get banned.
If you are indeed an adult with a doctorate then you should know how to comport yourself publically. I’m not a moderator, but it doesn’t take a moderator to recognize and address poor behavior. We are not children on a playground, acting badly when the teachers aren’t in view. We are adults and we have a duty to maintain our composure regardless of formal supervision.
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Emad
Guest
Reuben J:
Hello Reuben I don’t think posting false information about another religion is a good idea, especially when you do it just to liven up discussions.
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Anderson33
Guest
Mr. Ghosty; if you did not waste your time finding out who started all this avalanche of un-Christian posts, then you are admitting to being very, very unfair … again, speaking of fairness, why don’t you reprimand the muslim I am dealing with?? …… **are you concerned that “our” guests might feel offended by reminding them to not make personal attacks on other members of the forum???
Is this a joke Mr. Ghosty???
Talk about double-standards Mr. Ghosty !!! **
my academic background allows me to adapt to various levels of conversation … if someone debates me with respect, politeness and intelligent and thought-provoking arguments, then you can be sure I will do my best to match that level of conversation …
on the other hand, if someone decides to attack me with vile nonsense, believe me, I can also easily hurl insults and attacks …
am I being uncharitable? maybe, but at least I am being perfectly honest and consistent with anyone who wants to engage in a conversation with me ……
are my actions a public embarrassment? Well Mr. Ghosty, since that is your personal opinion, and since personal opinions are hardly irrefutable proof, then I will dismiss it ……. in case you do not know, this is a MODERATED site, and when the moderators warn me publicly and/or privately, then I will listen to them …… and let me remind you again that you do not own this site nor run it, so you do not have any right over me or my posts …. I will only listen to what the moderators say about the contents of my posts ……
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r.gonzales
Guest
keep “toying” all you want anderson, it only continues to make you look the fool. your displays of pseudo-intellectual prowess aren’t impressing anyone. btw, malfunctioning is one word, unhyphenated
. well read, indeed 
.
i’m sure the history of how the bible was compiled, along with the fact that there are more than a couple different versions of the bible that exist, each with the varying numbers of books they contain, is a great indication of its unadulterated and pure state
.
funny, looking at what’s transpired here thus far, this discussion was over the moment you failed to back up your claims about what’s mentioned in the Quran.
btw, if you want answers to your questions, i suggest you study what’s mentioned in posts #33, 34 and 39. have a nice day mr. phD anderson. i hope that worthless piece of paper does wonders for you.
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Booklover
Guest
Yes, where is the proof of Muslims’ claims?? We’re still waiting!
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Booklover
Guest
Yes, where is the proof of this supposed book’s existence???
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Reuben_J
Guest
Which part do you find false information? The information there makes sense to me, if it is not rebutted. I think it is good oppurtunity for you to clarify on the false information, because if not, then I would just go back believing what written there to be correct information. That’s the reason for posting that article.
But if you don’t want to rebut them, let others do. You can always ignore it. Perhaps I used inappropriate word by saying to liven up the discussion. But I meant to pursue the discussion if there are issues arises of that posting.
I’m sorry if I offend you.
Peace.
Reuben.
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Ghosty
Guest
We’ve been waiting for over 1400 years. Don’t hold your breath.
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Emad
Guest
Reuben J:
No you didn’t offend me. What I meant was that you posted something and you didn’t even take time to check if it was true. For example many verses that were quoted in your article have nothing to do with the issue at hand. Why do I think it was misinformation? Look at my post that I posted right above your article.
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stillsearching
Guest
Ah, Anderson, you are a man of great pride and firm judgements.
My hat is off to you sir.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Dear Emad,
I meant to address your response to the article but another Muslim rebutted you who also mentioned there were more to come. I am still waiting.
The subject is on the alleged corruption of the Bible. So which one I believe as correct response from Muslims? Yours or Gonzales.
Ordinarily I would not entertain this subject, which as I mentioned before, could end up not much on substance or objective argument but usually on personal accusation. This would bog the discussion down as each would be preoccupied in defending oneself. Also it could end in “because Quran says so or because Holy Spirit says so”. In other word, your words against mine. To me this is all very draining. However, I would love to engage in some objective argument.
In any case, the article I posted was not fully addressed and here I’m responding prematurely because of the label ‘false information’.
From your response I don’t see anything new except of explaining the Quranic verses given. From my point of view that only enforce my argument. I don’t argue with you on interpretation of those verses in deference to you being Muslim. Some Muslims tell us to look out for Muslim scholars for correct interpretation. But that does not prevent Muslims to interpret the Bible by themselves and present outrageous interpretations to us. So much for reciprocity!
Let look again on the main points I’ve posted:-
From the Quran this finding is observed – the Bible is true God’s word and it’s to be believed. It was available during Muhammad’s time and nothing to say that the Bible was corrupted.
Examples of available Quranic verses given, those that can be used to argue for or against the above.
Yet now we know that the Bible and the Quran do not agree on fundamental concepts of faith and practice which leave Muslims in a dilemma. Which is correct, the Quran or Bible?
Since the Bible existed before the Quran the burden of proof is upon the Muslims to prove that the Bible is incorrect AND that the Quran is correct.
Merely proving that the older document was not accurate also does not by default mean the newer document is true. It must stand on its own and prove itself.
In fact there were early Muslim scholars who vouched for the authenticity of the Bible and the charged that the Bible had been corrupted and falsified only surfaced in 1064 by Ibn-Khazem.
Emad, if you say these are false, you need to back it up. Saying it’s false will not stop the questions being asked.
We had entered into a dialogue earlier on, you and I. You wanted to challenge me on some religious issues. I believed I responded to you sincerely, but somewhere along the line you just disappeared. It was okay with me. But you seem to brush aside argument when it began to get tough.
I’m never one to be afraid to lose an argument only because it does not mean anything to me. I will always learn in the process.
Regarding this subject on Muslims accusation that the Bible is corrupted. How do you expect us to respond?
This challenge the core of our belief. The Bible has been debated and scrupulously examined though out the centuries and has never crumbled. If Muslims say it is corrupted, furnish us with evidence. If not, then perhaps they should think twice in bringing up this accusation.
As far as we are concerned, the Bible is the true Word of God and it’s like a double edge sword that will destroy the lies of the evil one. If the Muslims say it is corrupted, we would like to know the source that says it’s so. If it’s Muhammad or Quran, we would like to know the source from where they come from. Otherwise, in this respect, Christians will have no choice but to treat them like what they are – not of God.
This is hard talk and it’s hard for me to be able to say this. I hope you know I have nothing personal against you.
Peace.
May God bless you.
Reuben.
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Emad
Guest
Rueben blue
Emad black
Rueben I don’t see how my post contradicted that of gonzales.
Ordinarily I would not entertain this subject, which as I mentioned before, could end up not much on substance or objective argument but usually on personal accusation. This would bog the discussion down as each would be preoccupied in defending oneself. Also it could end in “because Quran says so or because Holy Spirit says so”. In other word, your words against mine. To me this is all very draining. However, I would love to engage in some objective argument
I also would not and will not discuss this issue. However the article you posted is trying to use the Quran to prove that the Bible was not corrupted. I will quote one verse for now that in my humble opinion is enough to prove otherwise "002.079
YUSUFALI: Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:“This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. "
From the Quran this finding is observed – the Bible is true God’s word and it’s to be believed. It was available during Muhammad’s time and nothing to say that the Bible was corrupted.
Examples of available Quranic verses given, those that can be used to argue for or against the above.
No the Injeel and the Bible are two different things. That is what Gonzales corrected me about. I called the Injeel the Bible by mistake. Also the verses you quoted were not all of the verses quoted in the Quran about the previous books. So the article you posted kind of picks and chooses certain verses to back its claim.
Yet now we know that the Bible and the Quran do not agree on fundamental concepts of faith and practice which leave Muslims in a dilemma. Which is correct, the Quran or Bible?
Since the Bible existed before the Quran the burden of proof is upon the Muslims to prove that the Bible is incorrect AND that the Quran is correct.
Merely proving that the older document was not accurate also does not by default mean the newer document is true. It must stand on its own and prove itself.
I am not here to prove that the Bible is false (though I believe most of it is) because I don’t have sufficient knowledge to do that. I will leave that to another Muslim. However I am here to prove that the Quran says it was corrupted.
In fact there were early Muslim scholars who vouched for the authenticity of the Bible and the charged that the Bible had been corrupted and falsified only surfaced in 1064 by Ibn-Khazem.
Emad, if you say these are false, you need to back it up. Saying it’s false will not stop the questions being asked.
I don’t have to prove anything. You said that these scholars claimed the Bible to be authentic. I ask you to show me there exact quotes. You made the claim so show me the source. Please tell me where I can find the exact statements of all the scholars you mentioned.
We had entered into a dialogue earlier on, you and I. You wanted to challenge me on some religious issues. I believed I responded to you sincerely, but somewhere along the line you just disappeared. It was okay with me. But you seem to brush aside argument when it began to get tough.
I’m never one to be afraid to lose an argument only because it does not mean anything to me. I will always learn in the process.
Yes I did read your response and I didn’t respond. It was not that it was tough, I decided to take some time away from this forum as it was starting to be a big headache (which it still is). Also your answers were not satisfying at all. Please point that thread out to me again and I will respond to it.
As far as we are concerned, the Bible is the true Word of God and it’s like a double edge sword that will destroy the lies of the evil one. If the Muslims say it is corrupted, we would like to know the source that says it’s so. If it’s Muhammad or Quran, we would like to know the source from where they come from. Otherwise, in this respect, Christians will have no choice but to treat them like what they are – not of God.
Emad black
Rueben I don’t see how my post contradicted that of gonzales.
Ordinarily I would not entertain this subject, which as I mentioned before, could end up not much on substance or objective argument but usually on personal accusation. This would bog the discussion down as each would be preoccupied in defending oneself. Also it could end in “because Quran says so or because Holy Spirit says so”. In other word, your words against mine. To me this is all very draining. However, I would love to engage in some objective argument
I also would not and will not discuss this issue. However the article you posted is trying to use the Quran to prove that the Bible was not corrupted. I will quote one verse for now that in my humble opinion is enough to prove otherwise "002.079
YUSUFALI: Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:“This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. "
From the Quran this finding is observed – the Bible is true God’s word and it’s to be believed. It was available during Muhammad’s time and nothing to say that the Bible was corrupted.
Examples of available Quranic verses given, those that can be used to argue for or against the above.
No the Injeel and the Bible are two different things. That is what Gonzales corrected me about. I called the Injeel the Bible by mistake. Also the verses you quoted were not all of the verses quoted in the Quran about the previous books. So the article you posted kind of picks and chooses certain verses to back its claim.
Yet now we know that the Bible and the Quran do not agree on fundamental concepts of faith and practice which leave Muslims in a dilemma. Which is correct, the Quran or Bible?
Since the Bible existed before the Quran the burden of proof is upon the Muslims to prove that the Bible is incorrect AND that the Quran is correct.
Merely proving that the older document was not accurate also does not by default mean the newer document is true. It must stand on its own and prove itself.
I am not here to prove that the Bible is false (though I believe most of it is) because I don’t have sufficient knowledge to do that. I will leave that to another Muslim. However I am here to prove that the Quran says it was corrupted.
In fact there were early Muslim scholars who vouched for the authenticity of the Bible and the charged that the Bible had been corrupted and falsified only surfaced in 1064 by Ibn-Khazem.
Emad, if you say these are false, you need to back it up. Saying it’s false will not stop the questions being asked.
I don’t have to prove anything. You said that these scholars claimed the Bible to be authentic. I ask you to show me there exact quotes. You made the claim so show me the source. Please tell me where I can find the exact statements of all the scholars you mentioned.
We had entered into a dialogue earlier on, you and I. You wanted to challenge me on some religious issues. I believed I responded to you sincerely, but somewhere along the line you just disappeared. It was okay with me. But you seem to brush aside argument when it began to get tough.
I’m never one to be afraid to lose an argument only because it does not mean anything to me. I will always learn in the process.
Yes I did read your response and I didn’t respond. It was not that it was tough, I decided to take some time away from this forum as it was starting to be a big headache (which it still is). Also your answers were not satisfying at all. Please point that thread out to me again and I will respond to it.
As far as we are concerned, the Bible is the true Word of God and it’s like a double edge sword that will destroy the lies of the evil one. If the Muslims say it is corrupted, we would like to know the source that says it’s so. If it’s Muhammad or Quran, we would like to know the source from where they come from. Otherwise, in this respect, Christians will have no choice but to treat them like what they are – not of God.
E
Emad
Guest
Here are some verses from the Quran:
3:78 “There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, “That is from Allah,” but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!”
5:15 O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book, -
2:101 And when there came to them a messenger from Allah, confirming what was with them, a party of the people of the Book threw away the Book of Allah behind their backs, as if (it had been something) they did not know!
3:23 Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who have been given a portion of the Book? They are invited to the Book of Allah, to settle their dispute, but a party of them Turn back and decline (The arbitration).
4:44 Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who were given a portion of the Book? they traffic in error, and wish that ye should lose the right path.
3:79 It is not (possible) that a man, to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the prophetic office, should say to people: “Be ye my worshippers rather than Allah’s”: on the contrary (He would say) “Be ye worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all: For ye have taught the Book and ye have studied it earnestly.”
2:79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:“This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
2:75 Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it.
3:71 Ye People of the Book! Why do ye clothe Truth with falsehood, and conceal the Truth, while ye have knowledge?
3:78 “There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, “That is from Allah,” but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!”
5:15 O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book, -
2:101 And when there came to them a messenger from Allah, confirming what was with them, a party of the people of the Book threw away the Book of Allah behind their backs, as if (it had been something) they did not know!
3:23 Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who have been given a portion of the Book? They are invited to the Book of Allah, to settle their dispute, but a party of them Turn back and decline (The arbitration).
4:44 Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who were given a portion of the Book? they traffic in error, and wish that ye should lose the right path.
3:79 It is not (possible) that a man, to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the prophetic office, should say to people: “Be ye my worshippers rather than Allah’s”: on the contrary (He would say) “Be ye worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all: For ye have taught the Book and ye have studied it earnestly.”
2:79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:“This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
2:75 Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it.
3:71 Ye People of the Book! Why do ye clothe Truth with falsehood, and conceal the Truth, while ye have knowledge?
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Reuben_J
Guest
I don’t know how you expect me to concede to you that the Bible is corrupted by 02.079. For such a major accusation we would expect it to be more convincing than that. Yes, from your understanding you do believe it to mean that but there are other ways of understanding that verse.
Emad, really at this stage I will not say how I understand that verse because this will lead to more argument which can be offensive to you. Perhaps you can explain to me how it could mean that the Bible or Injeel that the Christians have now is corrupted from that verse. But you can ignore this if you don’t wish to.
You also presented a list of verses to back the proposition of the Bible being corrupted. Thanks for them. Again from a Christian perspective, these verses quoted are not conclusive at all to say that the Bible is actually corrupted. For me to concede that the Bible is really corrupted, you got to be more specific than that.
But there are verses also that ask to refer to the people of the Book or that they are judged by the standard of their Book implying the Book to be believed. As I mentioned earlier on, look like I’m treading on unknown territory and it’s not my intention to argue with you on the Quran.
I don’t wish to inflame this argument anymore but let me tell you this. First of all I don’t post false information merely to malign your religion. I present it as such which I thought rather reasonable, and then for you to correct it if you don’t agree with it. I think that how a discussion should go.
Finally I’m not trying to convert any Muslims here and nothing you say too could possibly change my mind about my own religion. What I’m trying to do is defend my faith when possible and try to tell the truth as how I know it. At the same time I could learn about your faith and perhaps your mentality. Discussion should be profitable to both sides if we don’t accuse each other of wrong intention.
It’s okay if you don’t want to address the rest of the post.
Peace.
God bless you.
Reuben.
H
hawk
Guest
Reuben J:
Reuben my freind, 002:079 refers to the Quranic verse he quoted, it is not a date
Reuben my freind, 002:079 refers to the Quranic verse he quoted, it is not a date - Status