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Lenten_ashes
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Yes the 1054AD number is sort of arbitrary. They had split long before that, imo.
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Peter_J
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Personally, I know I’ve sometimes spent too many hours here.
maybe we could start a support group. 
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rcwitness
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I’ve got one of those too!
She’s not Polish, though. She’s Brazilian.let me know if there’s a sign up.Personally, I know I’ve sometimes spent too many hours here.
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dawid
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That is why we have various rites within the Catholic Church. The role of the bishop of Rome is to defend the teaching of the Church where needed. In these matters, he has the final decision. The various rites (22) comply, but have their own customs etc. The Church in South Africa is mostly Latin rite with a few other rites such as the Maronites in Johannesburg. What is interesting is that they still use Aramaic in parts of their Mass.
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commenter
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An online support group. One that is limited to one hour a day.Personally, I know I’ve sometimes spent too many hours here.
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Starwarsfan2
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Given that it views itself to be a continuation of the Church Catholic, it does have history before then , sorry Newman , ya got it wrong
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mattp0625
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In Norway, Sweden, and Iceland, the Catholic bishops were arrested and their property seized.Given that it views itself to be a continuation of the Church Catholic, it does have history before then , sorry Newman , ya got it wrong
There was also persecution of the existing Catholic clergy in England.
They were forced to comply under threat of arrest or death.
That does not sound like a continuation to me.
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Michael68
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Many Protestants say Catholics are not Christian! How can it be a continuation of the church Catholic?
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LutheranScholar
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Indeed. Of course, as this was the case, people who upheld a competing form of Christianity would be actively prosecuted by the opposing authorities. Seeing as how the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes and the St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre led to the deaths of hundreds of Protestants, while the Spanish Inquisition handed Protestants over to the Spanish state for execution, mutual persecution of Catholics in Protestant lands can hardly be viewed as surprising. We do indeed uphold Apostolic teaching and are indeed a part of the Church Catholic. The Gates of Hell actually never prevailed against Christ’s Church. It grew and multiplied, notwithstanding the many denominational names that are affixed to the various houses of worship today.Given that it views itself to be a continuation of the Church Catholic, it does have history before then , sorry Newman , ya got it wrong
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mattp0625
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The difference being that the circumstances noted above describe the origination of the Protestant church.
Johannes Bugenhagen was sent, with military backing, to install “new” priestly orders in Scandinavia. He was also called the apostle of the north.
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LutheranScholar
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Which Protestant church are you referring to? Protestantism was a movement of the Holy Spirit working in the lives of believers and the forms that movement took varied. As the major Protestant churches all adhered to the three Ecumenical Creeds ( Apostle’s, Nicene and Athanasian) and had arguments favoring their various positions from Church Fathers such as St. Augustine, they are all able to trace their heritage back to the Jerusalem Church which got its kick- start from the Holy Spirit in Pentecost of 33 AD ( this church was apparently led by a Council whose spokesmen were St. James as senior partner and St. Peter).
Ecclesiastical corruption ( much of which was rectified in the Councils held at the city of Trent) was addressed by these Reformers and corrected i their own territories. To address your statement about the Apostle to the North, Bugenhagen was invited to Denmark by the Danish King Christian III to facilitate the Reformation in that part of the world christianity.com/church/church-history/timeline/1501-1600/lutheranism-made-official-in-denmark-11629962.html,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Bugenhagen .
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mattp0625
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Bugenhagen also went to Norway with Christian III’s military support. That is where the arrests and seizure of property took place. Gustav I used similar force in Sweden.
Augustine, while having a high view of faith and scripture, never supported faith alone or scripture alone. Indeed, he was a Catholic bishop with authority.
Luther, while a man of faith, also did corrupt things. While he saw corruption in the church, he cherry picked his enemies. He did not think himself corrupt either.
Is the Lutheran church free from sinners? I hope the answer would be no.
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mattp0625
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Dr David Anders, who converted to Catholicsm, studied Luther and Augustine in depth.
His interview is below. His studies led him to conversion.
youtu.be/R5NT32Y-Mrk
His interview is below. His studies led him to conversion.
youtu.be/R5NT32Y-Mrk
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LutheranScholar
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Of course not. That’s why we have Confession and Absolution. We’re not all corrupt villains, any more than the Catholic church is filled to the brim with untarnished saints.
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JMM1957
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Considering how Protestant’s persecuted Catholics for nearly 400+ years after the Reformation and there are thousands of individual Protestant churches today which have varying beliefs, some quite different from each other, how do you figure things are better now than 500 years ago? The Protestant Reformation did a wonderful job of purging the wrong out of the Catholic Church and making everything better.
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LutheranScholar
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It’s not like those in Catholic countries didn’t do the exact same thing to Protestants for 400+ years in their own countries. Lutherans, Calvinists and Anabaptists all have their martyrs who suffered unspeakable atrocities at the hands of Catholic mobs, officials and monarchs. Catherine de Medici, Bloody Mary Tudor, Cardinal Richelieu, Phillip of Spain, Louis XIV, the Spanish Inquisition, Cardinal David Beaton and any Holy Roman Emperor you would wish to name before it morphed into the Austro- Hungarian Empire.Considering how Protestant’s persecuted Catholics for nearly 400+ years after the Reformation and there are thousands of individual Protestant churches today which have varying beliefs, some quite different from each other, how do you figure things are better now than 500 years ago? The Protestant Reformation did a wonderful job of purging the wrong out of the Catholic Church and making everything better.
The Protestant Reformation triggered a Counter- Reformation that finalized some dogmas that had been previously disputed and established papal supremacy in the Roman Catholic Church. People might be obsessed with church governments and membership rosters, but the Lord knows who are His. My reply is that as long as the Gospel is preached and the Sacraments correctly administered, who really cares what denominational label is outside the door of a church? Again, Christianity ( in all of its branches) has spread the Great Commission to lands explored and sometimes settled by Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox believers alike, all sharing the Good News, all blending their voices together in praise of God ( whose Holy Spirit is* not* bound by denomination). The gates of Hell have not prevailed and in fact, the doors to Heaven have been flung open to all who are given the grace to believe and be saved!
How are things better now than 500 years ago? Really?
The quality of life has improved, we’re living longer, people have access to Holy Scriptures in their own languages ( Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant canons, of course), the Word has been spread all over the Globe ( equally by Protestant and Catholic ministers, priests and normal settlers),the Protestant Ethic has given rise to capitalism and English Common law has, in different local forms, been integrated into the law of the land in several countries worldwide. Technology, science, information, all of that has advanced at lightning speed, even as literacy has greatly advanced.The only contribution that the Protestant Reformation might have made to the Catholic Church was that it sparked a Counter- Reformation. It might also have helped to determine certain reforms made in the first and second Vatican Councils.
In countries where the Protestant Reformation succeeded, though, it gave hope to millions, it cleared away any kind of dross that held the everyday farmer back from learning Scriptures for himself, it encouraged education and taught man’s status as a child of God in Christ Jesus. It took a bunch of Germanic and Celtic serfs who were reciting things by rote and made them passionate in their faith. Sure there were splits. Who’s going to dictate to the Holy Spirit how the Gospel gets proclaimed? The Holy Spirit will move as He wills and it’s not for us to understand. We can mourn and wail about names, days, seasons and years, about different forms of church governance and about " those nasty ( fill in the blank) people who give their time, talent and treasure to the other church down the street, or we can truly and fully rejoice in the movement of God as He draws people to Himself not only in Africa and Asia, but also in areas of the Americas and Europe, as well! There are no thought police to tell people what they " must" believe and assent to! Who insists that their flock believe every thing the organization tells them, without investigating and discovering* for themselves* that it is true? No Protestant church i can think of. God is truly great. Luther investigated the Book of Romans and indeed the entire Word of God and not apart from tradition! He teaches us to do the same. It is truly a wondrous time to be alive.
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MichaelP3
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I won’t give you the long message Lutheranscholar did. That is a very contradicting statement you made considering well… history. So let’s rather stay with the facts and if we don’t agree, well then we move on without this. Your condescending remarks are uncharitable. Here and previously with me very personally.Considering how Protestant’s persecuted Catholics for nearly 400+ years after the Reformation and there are thousands of individual Protestant churches today which have varying beliefs, some quite different from each other, how do you figure things are better now than 500 years ago? The Protestant Reformation did a wonderful job of purging the wrong out of the Catholic Church and making everything better.
Regards
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Reuben_J
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Whoa, whoa, whoa.
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JMM1957
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Everything I said to LutheranScholar is true, of course you both can disagree. I wasn’t trying to imply that the Catholics were not responsible for persecutions and killing of Protestants, everyone knows that. The point being, the Reformation resulted in persecution and killing of Catholics, which went on for nearly 400+ years up to the 19th century in America, do your history homework, the facts are facts.
You think my remarks are condescending? I guess you haven’t been reading LutheranScholar’s posts lately then. And welcome back to responding to me, I was really beginning to think you were a goner.
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MichaelP3
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I’m not a total goner. I was talking to my wife and if your username takes into account your birth date as we thought, I guess I would be a total different person if we were face to face. If I am wrong please correct me. But I am not trying to be a mean person.Everything I said to LutheranScholar is true, of course you both can disagree. I wasn’t trying to imply that the Catholics were not responsible for persecutions and killing of Protestants, everyone knows that. The point being, the Reformation resulted in persecution and killing of Catholics, which went on for nearly 400+ years up to the 19th century in America, do your history homework, the facts are facts.
You think my remarks are condescending? I guess you haven’t been reading LutheranScholar’s posts lately then. And welcome back to responding to me, I was really beginning to think you were a goner.
Regards
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