Dear Seperated Brethren

[Mommomamats]

This post is for the non-catholic Christians who love Jesus with all their heart. It is not in my nature to begin threads but I have to get something off my chest.

Reading the debates over OSAS, sola fide, sola scriptura, man made traditions, et cetera have got me heart broken for my dear non-catholic brothers and sisters in Christ. Because I believe so much that the Catholic Church truly is Christ’s Church it saddens me greatly to see people attack it, because I know they are attacking Christ himself.

It was only 6 months ago that I began my journey to the Church. Because of my anti-catholic upbringing and indoctrination from other churches it was a very difficult thing for me to do. For months I dealt with this and that issue afraid that I would offend God by certain practices within the church. But praise God he took me by the hand and led me to know the truth. Yes, it was Christ in the Eucharist that led me home.

What I want to say is this; if there are millions of people all over the world who believe in the same God that you believe in, who claim that our Lord Jesus Christ comes to them in the form of bread and wine, don’t you think it might be worth looking into?

Jesus, the one you love so much, (God Himself!) makes himself available to us daily through the sacrifice of the Mass. Calvary and the Resurrection can be before your eyes if only you would open them and “come and see.”

Come with an open heart, if you seek Him in Truth, He will reveal himself to you.

 

[JonNC]

=Mommomamats;5181851]
Reading the debates over OSAS, sola fide, sola scriptura, man made traditions, et cetera have got me heart broken for my dear non-catholic brothers and sisters in Christ. Because I believe so much that the Catholic Church truly is Christ’s Church it saddens me greatly to see people attack it, because I know they are attacking Christ himself.

Please don’t assume that all of us attack the Catholic Church.

It was only 6 months ago that I began my journey to the Church. Because of my anti-catholic upbringing and indoctrination from other churches it was a very difficult thing for me to do. For months I dealt with this and that issue afraid that I would offend God by certain practices within the church. But praise God he took me by the hand and led me to know the truth. Yes, it was Christ in the Eucharist that led me home.

I thank God that the Holy Spirit has led you to where he wants you, and that you are blessed by it.

What I want to say is this; if there are millions of people all over the world who believe in the same God that you believe in, who claim that our Lord Jesus Christ comes to them in the form of bread and wine, don’t you think it might be worth looking into?

That you or I claim it is irrelevent. Christ claimed it when He said, “This is my body.” And you and I know it to be true.

Jesus, the one you love so much, (God Himself!) makes himself available to us daily through the sacrifice of the Mass. Calvary and the Resurrection can be before your eyes if only you would open them and “come and see.”
Come with an open heart, if you seek Him in Truth, He will reveal himself to you.

Thank you for the sincere invitation. And welcome to CAF.

Jon

 

[apromisemade]

I am truly happy for you that you were able to find such peace and happieness by joining the Catholic Church. I am not Catholic but attend Catholic Mass, recite Catholic prayers, watch EWTN, and all my spiritual advisors are Catholic (go figure ).

I see much beauty in the Catholic Church, and have much respect for many of its leaders, but it’s just not somewhere I belong. I am too much of an independent thinker, too prone to stop and listen if faced with a new idea. I am of the belief that if you walk through life under the belief that what you have been taught is the one and only way to live and think and everyone else is just ignorant, than you cheat yourself out of any depth of spiritual or human experience in this life. Gods love is universal, the Churchs love is conditional. Perhaps when I am older and not as idealistic and searching for myself…but who knows.

 

[kalt]

If it’s not too personal, will you tell us what first made you consider Catholicism?

 

[kalt]

I am truly happy for you that you were able to find such peace and happieness by joining the Catholic Church. I am not Catholic but attend Catholic Mass, recite Catholic prayers, watch EWTN, and all my spiritual advisors are Catholic (go figure ).

I see much beauty in the Catholic Church, and have much respect for many of its leaders, but it’s just not somewhere I belong. I am too much of an independent thinker, too prone to stop and listen if faced with a new idea. I am of the belief that if you walk through life under the belief that what you have been taught is the one and only way to live and think and everyone else is just ignorant, than you cheat yourself out of any depth of spiritual or human experience in this life. Gods love is universal, the Churchs love is conditional. Perhaps when I am older and not as idealistic and searching for myself…but who knows.

I know what you’re saying, but I guess I’m at a loss to understand part of it.

If you’re going around thinking that everyone who has a different faith is ignorant, you would have a problem. Arrogance, maybe? Catholics don’t go around thinking that people of other faiths are ignorant. Who would call the great rabbis or Ghandi ignorant?

I wonder if you think that accepting one faith is limiting. Walking through life under the truth is freedom. If the faith you follow is the truth, living “under” it isn’t restrictive.

I’ll also add that accepting your faith as truth doesn’t mean that you can’t investigate what other people believe or that there’s nothing to gain from interaction with people from different faiths.

What do you mean by “the Church’s love is conditional?”

 

[apromisemade]

I know what you’re saying, but I guess I’m at a loss to understand part of it.

If you’re going around thinking that everyone who has a different faith is ignorant, you would have a problem. Arrogance, maybe? Catholics don’t go around thinking that people of other faiths are ignorant. Who would call the great rabbis or Ghandi ignorant?

Heh heh. You make a fine point my friend .

What do you mean by “the Church’s love is conditional?”

While there are many people out there who genuinely strive to imitate Christ and recognize He was the only perfect man that ever walked the earth, let’s just say that whilst searching for a single distinct faith (which I did do at one point) I’ve bumped into one to many Catholics (and to be fair, Christians in general) who clearly used there faith simply as a way to feel good about themselves and claim a higher moral ground than those who they resented or disagreed with. Such people, including many clergymen I might add, spent more time accusing others of not following Christs example than of striving to follow Him themselves.

sigh

 

[Mommomamats]

Please don’t assume that all of us attack the Catholic Church.

I do not, I was stating my feelings about those who do.

That you or I claim it is irrelevant. Christ claimed it when He said, “This is my body.” And you and I know it to be true.

Well, I wouldn’t say it is irrelevant that millions of people actually believe** these words of Christ.

Thank you for the sincere invitation. And welcome to CAF.

Jon

Thank you

I am of the belief that if you walk through life under the belief that what you have been taught is the one and only way to live and think and everyone else is just ignorant, than you cheat yourself out of any depth of spiritual or human experience in this life.

There is only 1 truth, I would say most who have not or will not find it are not ignorant, only spiritually lost. Many people, especially Christians have a lot of the Truth, I pray they find the fullness of it as I have.

Gods love is universal, the Church’s love is conditional

When you find God in his Church, all the “rules and regulations” fall into place.

If it’s not too personal, will you tell us what first made you consider Catholicism?

Many, many things. First and foremost it was my state of spiritual thirst despite being a strong believer in Christ. This was despite church on Sundays, reading my Bible, and attending Bible studies. I simply did not feel God in my life and I wondered why I was thirsting when Jesus said if I came to him I never would.

I tried nearly every type of church out there and found something lacking in each one, singing songs didn’t seem to enough to worship God, crackers and juice handed out by bored teenagers just seemed wrong, church was too much like a meeting and conflicted with the God of Bible, it was too ME focused and not focused enough on God. It was lacking, “Evangelical isn’t Enough.”

Anyway, so with all this I came across the Liturgy of the Hours, I was amazed at the depth of Catholic spirituality in this book and I saw right away how praying the Psalms flowed directly from the original Judaism, which I think is what I was looking for all along. The God of the Old Testament, the Jewish religion that became Christianity, the Presence of God that had been behind the curtain now available to all men. Where was that Presence anyway?

I could go on and on but you only asked for what first led me to the Church, .

 

[JonNC]

=Mommomamats;5182229]I do not, I was stating my feelings about those who do.

Thank you.

Well, I wouldn’t say it is irrelevant that millions of people actually believe** these words of Christ.

Yes, I agree. What I was saying is that simply because you and I and most of the communion of saints claim it to be so doesn’t make it so. Christ’s words make it so.

Jon

 

[Bookworm88]

This post is for the non-catholic Christians who love Jesus with all their heart. It is not in my nature to begin threads but I have to get something off my chest.

Reading the debates over OSAS, sola fide, sola scriptura, man made traditions, et cetera have got me heart broken for my dear non-catholic brothers and sisters in Christ. Because I believe so much that the Catholic Church truly is Christ’s Church it saddens me greatly to see people attack it, because I know they are attacking Christ himself.

Well, I have to admit that I don’t read all that many of the debates here, since it rather bothers me to read what I consider to be unbiblical positions from the Catholic side. Do you consider having a different perspective than what the Catholic Church teaches to be an attack on Christ, or are you refering to the people who actually post messages of condemnation against Catholics here? In my opinion, that’s just rude to do on a Catholic forum.
.

What I want to say is this; if there are millions of people all over the world who believe in the same God that you believe in, who claim that our Lord Jesus Christ comes to them in the form of bread and wine, don’t you think it might be worth looking into?

I don’t think the concept of millions of followers makes one denomination more valid than another. The Bible says that “strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life” Matthew 7:14. It could be true that a whole lot of people are wrong, even though they may think they are right.

Jesus, the one you love so much, (God Himself!) makes himself available to us daily through the sacrifice of the Mass.

I believe God himself is available to me on a daily basis through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which God gives to believers. I can see the Lord’s Supper as a symbol and a remembrance of what Christ has done for me because I already have the Spirit of God dwelling in me and thus available to me. I understand which passages you guys use in which you see it differently, so this doesn’t have to become a whole “real presence” thread. I’m just saying that having a disagreement about “real presence” or “symbolism” doesn’t mean that either side would be attacking Christ.

 

[Mommomamats]

Well, I have to admit that I don’t read all that many of the debates here, since it rather bothers me to read what I consider to be unbiblical positions from the Catholic side. Do you consider having a different perspective than what the Catholic Church teaches to be an attack on Christ, or are you refering to the people who actually post messages of condemnation against Catholics here? In my opinion, that’s just rude to do on a Catholic forum.

Yes, I am speaking of those who attack the Church as being unBiblical as attacking Christ. The Catholic Church, quite honestly, is the most Biblical Church I have found. If you think it’s unBiblical then either you don’t know the Bible or you don’t really know the Church. If you would like to debate that I’d be more than happy to, despite being the baby apologist that I am.

I don’t think the concept of millions of followers makes one denomination more valid than another. The Bible says that “strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life” Matthew 7:14. It could be true that a whole lot of people are wrong, even though they may think they are right.

Denominations aside, if Christ said in His Word, “This is my body” and the earliest Christians to the modern day members of largest religion in the world believe that it really truly is His body why not look into it, see for yourself? Yes it is true “straight is the gate and narrow the way” and the Catholic Church has one of the most narrow ways to heaven.

I believe God himself is available to me on a daily basis through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which God gives to believers. I can see the Lord’s Supper as a symbol and a remembrance of what Christ has done for me because I already have the Spirit of God dwelling in me and thus available to me. I understand which passages you guys use in which you see it differently, so this doesn’t have to become a whole “real presence” thread. I’m just saying that having a disagreement about “real presence” or “symbolism” doesn’t mean that either side would be attacking Christ.

Of course is available to you through the Holy Spirit, just as He was to me even before I became Catholic. He convicted me of sin and led me to seek God through prayer and His Word, He also led me to the Catholic Church and now leads me to defend Her.
However, receiving God through His word, or prayer, or congregation really is quite different from receiving Him physically in the form of bread and wine, my life will never be the same.
It’s perfectly fine if this turns into a “Real Presence” thread, that was really my intention. Because all I really wanted to say is - Come and see the Real Presence of Christ for yourself, He is in your local Catholic parish, waiting for you!

 

[LutheranDK]

What I want to say is this; if there are millions of people all over the world who believe in the same God that you believe in, who claim that our Lord Jesus Christ comes to them in the form of bread and wine, don’t you think it might be worth looking into?

I cannot argue against personal testimonies, nor would I want to

I will only say this: Saying that the fact that millions of people believe something makes the object of that belief worth looking into is a non-sequitur. Millions of people believe that an Arabic merchant was a prophet of God, bringing a new message - that does not make islam worth looking into.

Just a thought, coming from someone who DOES believe that the elements of Holy Communion actually ARE the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[JonNC]

I cannot argue against personal testimonies, nor would I want to

I will only say this: Saying that the fact that millions of people believe something makes the object of that belief worth looking into is a non-sequitur. Millions of people believe that an Arabic merchant was a prophet of God, bringing a new message - that does not make islam worth looking into.

Just a thought, coming from someone who DOES believe that the elements of Holy Communion actually ARE the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

I think you explained it better than I did.
Jon

 

[Bookworm88]

Of course is available to you through the Holy Spirit, just as He was to me even before I became Catholic. He convicted me of sin and led me to seek God through prayer and His Word, He also led me to the Catholic Church and now leads me to defend Her.

Ah, but do you believe you were indwelt by the Holy Spirit even before you were a believer? The Bible speaks of our bodies being the temple of the Holy Spirit, and I don’t believe that can happen to someone who is not yet a believer. The Holy Spirit can convict an unbeliever, but not indwell them.

However, receiving God through His word, or prayer, or congregation really is quite different from receiving Him physically in the form of bread and wine, my life will never be the same.

Receiving God through the word, or prayer, or congregation is also different from being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. My life hasn’t been the same since I received Christ as my Savior and the Holy Spirit came to live within me, giving me the ability to do the good works that God wishes to see in my life.

It’s perfectly fine if this turns into a “Real Presence” thread, that was really my intention. Because all I really wanted to say is - Come and see the Real Presence of Christ for yourself, He is in your local Catholic parish, waiting for you!

Perhaps you can answer a “real presence” question for me then. If there is a real presence in the elements, then wouldn’t the sacrifice of the mass be a real sacrifice, thus causing Christ to be sacrificed over again and again each time mass is performed? I noticed someone in another thread commenting about this, wondering why non-Catholics always ask this question. That poster said that the sacrifice is only “re-presented,” not actually perfomed more than the one time it happened on Calvary. But wouldn’t that answer be the same as saying that the “sacrifice” part of the mass is really only symbolic? So the phrase “This is my body which is broken for you” would mean, “This is my body (real presence) which is broken for you (symbolic sacrifice)”?

 

[Mommomamats]

I cannot argue against personal testimonies, nor would I want to

I will only say this: Saying that the fact that millions of people believe something makes the object of that belief worth looking into is a non-sequitur. Millions of people believe that an Arabic merchant was a prophet of God, bringing a new message - that does not make islam worth looking into.

Just a thought, coming from someone who DOES believe that the elements of Holy Communion actually ARE the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

I must admit I don’t quite know how to respond to a Lutheran who does believe in the real presence, Lutheranism is a denomination I looked into briefly before committing fully to the Catholic Church. The division in the denomination here in the states, the belief in faith alone, and the lack of authority ultimately steered me away.
I did attend and was baptized in the Presbyterian church that believed in a type of real presence, though the occasional communion services were very moving, they were nothing in comparison to the Eucharist.
If Lutherans believe in the Real Presence (however they believe it manifests in the bread and wine) why then do they not receive it every Sunday, or every day for that matter? Don’t you want to be in the presence of and receive Jesus as much as possible?

Also, I don’t think that my appealing to people to look into something that millions believe, and Jesus said himself, is non-sequitur being that I am appealing to people who already hold faith in and love the Lord Jesus Christ. If there is any truth to this, that Christ makes himself available in this way, it’s definitely worth looking into and inviting Christians to do so!

 

[JonNC]

=Mommomamats;5189097]I must admit I don’t quite know how to respond to a Lutheran who does believe in the real presence

You shouldn’t find one who doesn’t. It is central to Lutheranism that in the Eucharist the true and substantial body and blood of Christ are distributed and received with that which is seen, the bread and wine.

The division in the denomination here in the states, the belief in faith alone, and the lack of authority ultimately steered me away.

The first and third are issues for me, as well, and I’m a life-long Lutheran.

If Lutherans believe in the Real Presence (however they believe it manifests in the bread and wine) why then do they not receive it every Sunday, or every day for that matter? Don’t you want to be in the presence of and receive Jesus as much as possible?

Fortunately, the return to weekly communion is - blessedly - happening in America as we speak in most Lutheran synods. You are absolutely correct in your observation/ criticism.

Jon

 

[Peter_J]

Reading the debates over OSAS, sola fide, sola scriptura, man made traditions, et cetera have got me heart broken for my dear non-catholic brothers and sisters in Christ. Because I believe so much that the Catholic Church truly is Christ’s Church it saddens me greatly to see people attack it, because I know they are attacking Christ himself.

I love it. You feel bad for the non-Catholic Christians here – not because of them getting attacked by the Catholic posters, but rather you feel bad for them because of them attacking us. Nice.

 

[OnlyJesus]

dear mommomamats…Jesus ascended back to the Father where he sits today at God the Father’s right hand. There he remains until all of his enemies are put beneath his feet. He makes intercessions for us when Satan accuses us to God.

When Jesus ascended back to heaven he sent us the Holy Spirit as our Teacher and as our Comforter IN HIS PLACE. The Holy Spirit couldn’t come until Jesus ascended.

Our Lord Jesus Christ’s words:

John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Matthew 22:44
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mark 16:19
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Luke 22:69
Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
1 Peter 3:22
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

 

[Mommomamats]

dear onlyjesus,

Of course Jesus is in Heaven!
He makes His presence there present to us in the Eucharist.

Mark 14:22 - …“Take this, this is my body.” v24 “This is my blood…”

John 6:53 "Let me solemnly assure you, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. v 55 “For my flesh is real food and my blood real drink.”

Matthew 28:20 “I am with you always, until the end of the world!”

Come and see!

 

[Mommomamats]

Ah, but do you believe you were indwelt by the Holy Spirit even before you were a believer? The Bible speaks of our bodies being the temple of the Holy Spirit, and I don’t believe that can happen to someone who is not yet a believer. The Holy Spirit can convict an unbeliever, but not indwell them.

I believe I was “indwelt” with the Holy Spirit from the time I believed and was baptized. My life radically changed at that point too. However, since finding the fullness of the faith there have been times that I have literally felt FULL of the Holy Spirit, sometimes to the point of feeling physically heavy and having a feeling of breathing a spiritual breath. I know I can’t convert people with personal religious experiences but I must say that before coming to the Church I could hardly talk to anyone about Jesus due to my fears, but now I speak boldly, much like the apostles after pentecost.

Receiving God through the word, or prayer, or congregation is also different from being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. My life hasn’t been the same since I received Christ as my Savior and the Holy Spirit came to live within me, giving me the ability to do the good works that God wishes to see in my life.

Amen to that, my life did a complete 180 for the better when I came to believe, I had been in a very, very dark place.

Perhaps you can answer a “real presence” question for me then. If there is a real presence in the elements, then wouldn’t the sacrifice of the mass be a real sacrifice, thus causing Christ to be sacrificed over again and again each time mass is performed? I noticed someone in another thread commenting about this, wondering why non-Catholics always ask this question. That poster said that the sacrifice is only “re-presented,” not actually perfomed more than the one time it happened on Calvary. But wouldn’t that answer be the same as saying that the “sacrifice” part of the mass is really only symbolic? So the phrase “This is my body which is broken for you” would mean, “This is my body (real presence) which is broken for you (symbolic sacrifice)”?

My understanding is that the sacrifice of the Mass is offering the body of Jesus to the Father in an unbloody manner. He offers His body as it is now by His once for all sacrifice to forgive our sins and bring us into communion with Him. I take the Church’s word that Jesus is not sacrificed over and over, only His one sacrifice is continually offered up. This link will explain it better then I can.

ewtn.com/faith/Teachings/euchb1a.htm

 

[LutheranDK]

If Lutherans believe in the Real Presence (however they believe it manifests in the bread and wine) why then do they not receive it every Sunday, or every day for that matter? Don’t you want to be in the presence of and receive Jesus as much as possible?

Well, we DO recieve Jesus every Sunday at High Mass
But I realize that there are differences between the Lutheran Churches.