Death before the fall- my view... agree, disagree?!

[mschrank]

Animals and other beings with material souls died. Humans, after their creation (however that happened… lets not go there in this thread please there are others), were imbued with a spiritual soul (see Aquinas for the difference between material/spiritual soul).

This spiritual soul and constant communion with God (would have) preserved them from corruption in the same way some great Saints bodies do not corrupt. They would have been kept alive supernaturally, their zoe sustaining their bios and would have never died. Secondly, we would have been so in touch with physical creation and matter that it would never harm us. Remember St. Francis and the wolf, or Father (st?) Solanus and the bees.

Agree? Disagree?

Also remember, creation was a starting point- not a finishing point! Creation was supposed to start there, and end up who knows where, given man’s ability to think and his scientific and intellectual abilities.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

My impression is that it did not take Adam and Eve very long after recieving a soul to sin. The end of Wisdom 2 comes to mind too.

 

[Nita]

Animals and other beings with material souls died. Humans, after their creation (however that happened… lets not go there in this thread please there are others), were imbued with a spiritual soul (see Aquinas for the difference between material/spiritual soul).

This spiritual soul and constant communion with God (would have) preserved them from corruption in the same way some great Saints bodies do not corrupt. They would have been kept alive supernaturally, their zoe sustaining their bios and would have never died. Secondly, we would have been so in touch with physical creation and matter that it would never harm us. Remember St. Francis and the wolf, or Father (st?) Solanus and the bees.

Agree? Disagree?

Agree.

Also remember, creation was a starting point- not a finishing point! Creation was supposed to start there, and end up who knows where, given man’s ability to think and his scientific and intellectual abilities

Keep in mind, God knew, before He even created Adam and Eve, that they would sin - where creation would (and will) “end up”.

Nita

 

[porthos11]

Animals and other beings with material souls died.

I tend to disagree. Death is due to deterioration, which would not have been a condition in an unfallen world.

Humans, after their creation (however that happened… lets not go there in this thread please there are others), were imbued with a spiritual soul (see Aquinas for the difference between material/spiritual soul).

This spiritual soul and constant communion with God (would have) preserved them from corruption in the same way some great Saints bodies do not corrupt. They would have been kept alive supernaturally, their zoe sustaining their bios and would have never died. Secondly, we would have been so in touch with physical creation and matter that it would never harm us. Remember St. Francis and the wolf, or Father (st?) Solanus and the bees.

Yes, but perhaps it may be shortchanging in a way because then, the Incarnation may not have been required, and humanity may not find its place in the Godhead.

Any benefits or paradise in store for us in an unfallen world would still be less than the Beatific Vision we are now entitled to with Christ’s coming and his ascension.

This is why the Church proclaims the Felix Culpa at the Exsultet: O Happy Fault! O necessary sin of Adam, that gained for us so great a Redeemer!

 

[mschrank]

But we have fossils that are millions of years old, if not billions, we know as a fact that animals died before the fall!

 

[Orogeny]

Agree? Disagree?

I think that the death that came into the world with sin was spiritual death. Our separating our souls from God via sin ends in the death of our spirit while not sinning (or receiving forgiveness for our sin) leads to eternal life with God.

Since plants and non-human animals don’t have immortal souls, the concept of death spoken of in Genesis doesn’t come into play.

Peace

Tim