Death before the Fall?

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Was there death before man’s first sin? Was death physical but not spiritual? If there wasn’t death before the Fall, how did dinosaurs die before man existed? How would evolution happen? Is the book of Genesis meant to be taken literally, or is it just telling us that God created the world and man lost his grace by sin?
 
Matt_2 said:
Was there death before man’s first sin? Was death physical but not spiritual? If there wasn’t death before the Fall, how did dinosaurs die before man existed? How would evolution happen? Is the book of Genesis meant to be taken literally, or is it just telling us that God created the world and man lost his grace by sin?
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Hi, Matt!

…ever noticed those shows on animal psychology or the gifted telepathic “whisperers?”

God is not concerned with all Creation as He is with man (Created in His image and likeness). When we read the account of the “Fall” we find that physical “death” did not occurred as soon as the sin was committed… not even after Yahweh God called Adam to account for the rebellion! God spoke of a Spiritual “death,” not a physical one. Also, please note that God removed Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden before they were able to eat of Tree of Life–this tells us that they were not Created as immortal beings but were dependent upon God’s Gift of Life.

One more point, we must understand that Creation was not necessarily accomplished in six-twenty-four-hour cycles.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Regarding physical death:
The sin of man had consequences for all of creation, but that doesn’t necessarily mean there was no animal death prior to Adam’s fall (Romans 8:19-23). Plants had been given for food, so there was plant death. (Gen 1:30) What we do know is that there was no human death prior to the fall.

God’s warning about death involved only the human (Adam) he had created (and included Eve later after she was created).
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."

In declaring the judgement, again only humans are mentioned:
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return."
 
Matt_2 said:
Was there death before man’s first sin? Was death physical but not spiritual? If there wasn’t death before the Fall, how did dinosaurs die before man existed? How would evolution happen? Is the book of Genesis meant to be taken literally, or is it just telling us that God created the world and man lost his grace by sin?
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IMO, this issue underscores the importance of a non-literal interpretation of much of the Bible. Of course death existed before The Fall. Looking at it metaphorically, or symbolically, ‘death’ is meant as the futility of human endeavor, even existence, without God. We all return to dust. Even the richest, most powerful, most famous, etc., etc. Yes…we all die, and disappear. Without God, we have no significance other than being intelligent animals.
 
No physical death before the fall is just an assumption not based on common sense.

Meat eating Animals ate other animals.

Adam and Eve at least ate plants – requires diegestion.

Digestive Systems require “death or decay” to work.

If germs did not die, then Adam and Eve would not have lasted a day.

Plant life would not be able to grow without “decay” – any textbook on exchange of gas.

Cell life would be non-existent, look up cells in your biology textbook too.

Adam and Eve did NOT die physically, the very day they sinned.

They were seperated from God. James 2:26 defines death simply as seperation of body and spirit.

Spiritual death could easily be defined as seperation between God and man.

:rolleyes:
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
No physical death before the fall is just an assumption not based on common sense.

Meat eating Animals ate other animals.

Adam and Eve at least ate plants – requires diegestion.

Digestive Systems require “death or decay” to work.

If germs did not die, then Adam and Eve would not have lasted a day.

Plant life would not be able to grow without “decay” – any textbook on exchange of gas.

Cell life would be non-existent, look up cells in your biology textbook too.

Adam and Eve did NOT die physically, the very day they sinned.

They were seperated from God. James 2:26 defines death simply as seperation of body and spirit.

Spiritual death could easily be defined as seperation between God and man.

:rolleyes:
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:newidea:
 
The issue of Adam and Eve and death, I think, really stems from the nature of souls in general. The Catholic Church teaches that every living thing has a soul—keeping in mind that by “soul” the Church means life force. The souls of plants and animals, though, are material, and they disappear when the plants and animals die.

We humans, on the other hand, have a spiritual soul. Without parts, it cannot break down. It lasts forever. That is why it continues on after we die.

Now, I’m not wholly certain how what follows fits in with the Church, but I’m reasonably certain it doesn’t conflict in any way.

Suppose, for the sake of argument, that all life on earth, including humans, developed through evolution. All animals that existed before the advent of man had material souls and died. But when the form was right–i.e. when God decided that evolution had at last produced a body that would be the form of man (either because He directly guided the process or simply let it ran on its own) He breathed into man and gave man a spiritual soul. I would hazard this probably happened at the moment of conception, but I could be wrong.

Now, at this time, we have Adam, whose physical body is much like the physical bodies of his predecessors, but he has a spiritual life force and the fullness of grace from God. His destiny at that time is to live forever, because the perfect harmony between body and soul means that the spiritual soul he possessed forever renews the body. So he wouldn’t get sick, he wouldn’t age, and he wouldn’t die. (Whether a tiger could kill him and eat him, I don’t know, but then, maybe God giving Adam dominion over all animals was maybe a little more than congratulating Adam as the one self-aware, thinking, reasoning, creature in existence.)

When Adam and Eve sinned, they introduce a severe disharmony between the soul and the body. Their choice to disobey God dispelled the grace in their souls and placed a impediment between body and soul so that the body could no longer receive the fullness of renewal that the immortal spirit could provide.

As an aside, I find it interesting that the book of Genesis depicts Adam and Eve as eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. They were tempted with the knowledge of what is good and what is evil. The way I tend to see it is that their choice really was that they knew what was good (because they had it, but hey, the grass is always greener, right?), but chose instead to find out just how bad things could be.

So yes, death did enter the world with the first sin. It was both the immediate spiritual death that occurred with the loss of grace, and also the eventual physical death that occurred when the spiritual soul could no longer sustain the material body indefinitely.

As I said, this is mostly my personal interpretation, and while I’m pretty sure it is in line with the Church, I’m not 100% sure, either. But the reason I think this has to do with the Resurrection and the life everlasting that we believe in. God made us for eternal life. We know that because we have an immortal soul. But he also made us an amalgamation of matter and spirit, not either alone. We are not spirits “trapped” in a material body. We are an alloy, mixed and not meant to be separated. As wonderful as Heaven is, when our souls go there, we are incomplete. We were ever and always meant to have a material body.

Now, whether we were always meant to undergo physical death and eventually receive a glorified body (throw-out-those-old-clothes-and-wear-this-new-suit type of thing) or if Adam and Eve originally had glorified bodies that they un-glorified, I don’t know. But I lean towards the latter. Death always existed for the those wholly material living things, but man was not meant for death. Death, in regards to man, came about as the result of sin.
 
Matt_2 said:
Was there death before man’s first sin? Was death physical but not spiritual? If there wasn’t death before the Fall, how did dinosaurs die before man existed? How would evolution happen? Is the book of Genesis meant to be taken literally, or is it just telling us that God created the world and man lost his grace by sin?
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**Losing grace meant that humankind lost the integration of body and soul so that there was a separation of the two. What Christ became when He arose is what humankind’s original state was.

I am of the opinion that death is a natural part of the universe. However, because other life forms do not have immortality, they die. This includes all other living things, even dinosaurs. **
 
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