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wabrams
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Razz(name removed by moderator), you said that about 100x better than I did. THought process was there but the brain and fingers weren’t in sync.
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RazzsMom
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Thank you for saying that. Sometimes my brain and fingers don’t want to work together, either!
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Rence
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Razz(name removed by moderator), thank you very much! 
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joanmo42
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I felt I had to step in and say a bit about ‘end of life care’.
As the CCC # 2278 states, if death is immenent ( as the elderly 91 year old was)–then ‘extraordinary means’ (nutrition and hydration) are NOT required by the Catholic Church.
Aging is definitely a non reversible condition, therefore no nutrition or hydration is necessay.Therefore taking a dying person to the hospital for IV fluids is not required; this is ‘exraordinary’ and burdonsome to the patient.
Relatives get panicky thinking they need to stop the death process which is not accurate.
As Jesus was dying on the cross, He said “I thirst” and was offered bitter gall. We in turn give palliative care to the dying and offer water if requested.
I am slowly dying of CKD, and have talked to and left written instructions for my end of life care, all in accordance with my Catholic Faith.
A good ‘rule of thumb’ for all those responsible for an ill person is; if the condition is an acute onset and reversible then use all means to promote life. If the condition is ongoing( terminal cancer, heart or kidney disease) then let life end naturally.
As a postscript, ‘vegetative states’ are NOT terminal and need nutrition and hydration to sustain life no matter how restricted.
As the CCC # 2278 states, if death is immenent ( as the elderly 91 year old was)–then ‘extraordinary means’ (nutrition and hydration) are NOT required by the Catholic Church.
Aging is definitely a non reversible condition, therefore no nutrition or hydration is necessay.Therefore taking a dying person to the hospital for IV fluids is not required; this is ‘exraordinary’ and burdonsome to the patient.
Relatives get panicky thinking they need to stop the death process which is not accurate.
As Jesus was dying on the cross, He said “I thirst” and was offered bitter gall. We in turn give palliative care to the dying and offer water if requested.
I am slowly dying of CKD, and have talked to and left written instructions for my end of life care, all in accordance with my Catholic Faith.
A good ‘rule of thumb’ for all those responsible for an ill person is; if the condition is an acute onset and reversible then use all means to promote life. If the condition is ongoing( terminal cancer, heart or kidney disease) then let life end naturally.
As a postscript, ‘vegetative states’ are NOT terminal and need nutrition and hydration to sustain life no matter how restricted.
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Gloria1
Guest
I lost my grandma a few months ago and It was a very tough time. My condolences to you and your family. This is not the case in America but I will like to share this; in certain parts of Africa, most elders especially those above 80 feel guilty eating while their grandchildren go hungry so most of the elders in Africa starve themselves to death which is very sad.
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, 1ke,
Let me first express my sympathy for the loss of the OP’s family member.
Let me next identify that although there was not a lot of medical history, the patient was determined to be in a terminal state (that is why she was accepted by hospice where death is expected within six months).
Thirdly, 1kek, you really have misapplied this Vatican document which specifically addresses those in a persistant vegatitive state. People in this state are not necessarily terminal and I think the directive was issued in response to the Terri Schiavo case who died in 2002.
As a Registered Nurse familiar with hospice care, the dying are not like the living in the sense that they want to eat regularly. As the body prepares for death, the desire for food is virtally absent, food entering the stomach can cause much distress, be rejected (as in vomiting) and there is an excellent chance of aspiration of the vomitus into the lungs causing further distress. The care given to dying patients is focused on pain management, hygiene, having comfort measures provided and having family near.
Truly, giving nutrition by the intravenous route would have been a questionable intervention for a dying patient. Providing dignity throughout the process of dying is the focus - with no action intended on hastening the process of death.
This is a complex matter and it can be made nearly unbearable unless compassion and a real understanding about how its is we die is at least attempted. Since the OP’s aunt was admitted to hospice, the family has access to therapeutic interventions by the hospice company for a year. There is a Social Worker or Therapist on the health care team of the hospice. It would appear to me that not only is grief counseling in order, but also obtaining more informaiton on the actual care given to the dying process would be quite helpful.
God bless
Let me first express my sympathy for the loss of the OP’s family member.
Let me next identify that although there was not a lot of medical history, the patient was determined to be in a terminal state (that is why she was accepted by hospice where death is expected within six months).
Thirdly, 1kek, you really have misapplied this Vatican document which specifically addresses those in a persistant vegatitive state. People in this state are not necessarily terminal and I think the directive was issued in response to the Terri Schiavo case who died in 2002.
As a Registered Nurse familiar with hospice care, the dying are not like the living in the sense that they want to eat regularly. As the body prepares for death, the desire for food is virtally absent, food entering the stomach can cause much distress, be rejected (as in vomiting) and there is an excellent chance of aspiration of the vomitus into the lungs causing further distress. The care given to dying patients is focused on pain management, hygiene, having comfort measures provided and having family near.
Truly, giving nutrition by the intravenous route would have been a questionable intervention for a dying patient. Providing dignity throughout the process of dying is the focus - with no action intended on hastening the process of death.
This is a complex matter and it can be made nearly unbearable unless compassion and a real understanding about how its is we die is at least attempted. Since the OP’s aunt was admitted to hospice, the family has access to therapeutic interventions by the hospice company for a year. There is a Social Worker or Therapist on the health care team of the hospice. It would appear to me that not only is grief counseling in order, but also obtaining more informaiton on the actual care given to the dying process would be quite helpful.
God bless
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rpp
Guest
I am afraid you are quite wrong in many of your interpretations of Church teaching. Ik1 properly applied the Church teaching. Food and hydration can never be denied a person who is capable of receiving them. Whether they want to eat or not has nothing to do with it.
What you describe as compassion is more the desire for the living to be rid of the ill person so they can move on rather than the more properly ordered desire to support life from conception to natural death. Starving a terminally ill person is NOT a natural death. Nor is any form of euthanasia or suicide.
I think you have been deceived by the secular culture of death people you work with.
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tqualey
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Hi, Rpp,
One of the more interesting things about facts is that they stand by themselves. I will happily stand by the facts of this matter…and I am quite confident I am correct in this…
You see, the item cited addressed those who are quite alive but in a persistive vegetative state. This condition did not apply to OP’s aunt who was already identifyed as dying.
We all will face our own death - and some will face the death of dear and beloved familiy and friends. It would be good to address these issues while one is alert and aware of their actions and goals. Truly, some folks do not want any possible medical procedure withheld if anyone has the least thought it will prolong their life. Others want some procedures but not others. Some are content for only pain management and comfort measures. Everyone is different. The problem is that by imposing your view on others, you compound the agonies and misconceptions of family members trying to make a determination.
God bless
One of the more interesting things about facts is that they stand by themselves. I will happily stand by the facts of this matter…and I am quite confident I am correct in this…
You see, the item cited addressed those who are quite alive but in a persistive vegetative state. This condition did not apply to OP’s aunt who was already identifyed as dying.I guess time will tell just who it is who is deceived. So, here are some straight forward questions: do you know of any case where the Church as condemned hospice care as appropraite for a dying patient? Hospice is appropriate care for dying patients in that it really does address their needs. It is not appropriate for someone who is not dying - and the relatives want to be rid of them.I am afraid you are quite wrong in many of your interpretations of Church teaching. Ik1 properly applied the Church teaching. Food and hydration can never be denied a person who is capable of receiving them. Whether they want to eat or not has nothing to do with it.
The dying who have mental faculties and can respond, may or may not want to eat or drink - but, again, these were not the facts of the case presented by OP. Attempting to provide nourishment and hydration into a dying person is of dubious medical benefit and would be considered as ‘heroic’ - and not a requirement of the Catholic teaching. Again, let me point out - this person is dying. They are not dying because they are being starved or dehydrated, but dying because of some other process (disease, organ failure, etc.) Prior to her slipping into unconsciousness, the OP’s aunt could eat and drink (at least nothing was said to the contrary to this matter). Yet, she was determined by competent medical authority to be dying and as such was referrred to Hospice for the specific care they provide to the dying - which does not include IV administration of nutrion and hydration.
What you describe as compassion is more the desire for the living to be rid of the ill person so they can move on rather than the more properly ordered desire to support life from conception to natural death. Starving a terminally ill person is NOT a natural death. Nor is any form of euthanasia or suicide.
Your description here, more closely conforms to the Terri Shrivo case - rather than the OP’s aunt. Admittedly, there were others in the family who did not agree with the person who the aunt put in charge of her care. But, who is now superimposing their values on others?
Without a doubt, this case is a classic illustration of what happens when everyone is not on the same page. From my experience as a Registered Nurse providing hospice care, the focus is on what care we do provide in accordance with the dying person’s wishes. Some of these wishes (to be put on life support, for IV hydration and nutrition, etc.) are simply not compatable with being a hospice patient. Management of pain, hygiene, comfort measures are examples of the care that is given by every hospice.
My response here is not to try and change your mind. You have made it quite clear that this is not possible. Rather, the OP appears to be tormented by what took place within the family of the dying aunt. Chances are the aunt was aware of this disagreement - hearing is the last sense to go - but, was unable to respond to it. My recommendation was to get with the hospice staff as a family and go over what was done for the aunt and why it was done that way. It appears to me that there are people both within the family and on the list who are content to expound opinion and shoot fromt the hip. The pain expressed by the OP is real - and he is entitled to solid information, rather then misapplied documents.
I think you have been deceived by the secular culture of death people you work with.
We all will face our own death - and some will face the death of dear and beloved familiy and friends. It would be good to address these issues while one is alert and aware of their actions and goals. Truly, some folks do not want any possible medical procedure withheld if anyone has the least thought it will prolong their life. Others want some procedures but not others. Some are content for only pain management and comfort measures. Everyone is different. The problem is that by imposing your view on others, you compound the agonies and misconceptions of family members trying to make a determination.
God bless
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Rence
Guest
Tom, you and Razzmom really provided the correct information in a way more articulate and organized way than I ever could have. It’s difficult for people (especially those who are non-clinical) to understand these issues.
The fact that there is so much confusion and misinformation and misrepresentation makes it obvious how terribly important it is to have a Living Will and a Durable Power of Attorney who will carry out your wishes so that someone confused by the “rules” doesn’t subject one to their opinions and their own wishes. The scary part is that even if someone has a LW and DPA, people still try to get legal intervention to violate the patient’s rights. If you don’t have these things spelled out before you get sick, you will be at the mercy of someone else
The fact that there is so much confusion and misinformation and misrepresentation makes it obvious how terribly important it is to have a Living Will and a Durable Power of Attorney who will carry out your wishes so that someone confused by the “rules” doesn’t subject one to their opinions and their own wishes. The scary part is that even if someone has a LW and DPA, people still try to get legal intervention to violate the patient’s rights. If you don’t have these things spelled out before you get sick, you will be at the mercy of someone else
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rpp
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So when the Church teaches that a person in a vegetative state cannot be denied food and hydration that does not apply to a person who is conscious? Are you saying that it is permissible to deny food and hydration to a person as long as they are alert but dying in order to accelerate their death, which is the situation described by the OP?Hi, Rpp,
One of the more interesting things about facts is that they stand by themselves. I will happily stand by the facts of this matter…and I am quite confident I am correct in this…
Is that what are claiming is a fact?
The Church is silent on hospice care. And so am I.
I have faced the death of loved ones. I was the one who had to make the care and medical decision for my dying father. I am well acquainted with Church teachings in this matter as I have had to actually put them into practice.
Do not divert the subject or hijack this thread. The issue is food an hydration. No one is talking about medical procedures. Each person has the right to request or refuse medical treatment. Food and hydration can never be withheld, even at the request of the dying person, as long as the person is physically able to recieve them. (Some people are in such a grave state that food or water may actually make them worse.) What applies to a person in a “vegetative” state applies to a person who is conscious and alert. If you believe otherwise, which you seem to, that is profoundly in opposition to Church teaching.
One cannot be both Catholic and support any form of euthanasia.
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wabrams
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You do realize that if the body is going through the dying process, the organs needed to break down food/water/IV nutrients are shutting down and cannot process them? It would be like putting gas and oil in an engine with a thrown rod or cracked block, hoping the fluids/fuel will get it to crank back up.
Someone in a vegetative state is NOT in the active process of dying, so to deny them nutrition would be euthanasia, which is a horrid thing.
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rpp
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Your statement is a canard and you make it clear that you have not read my posts. In all my posts my posts regarding this I have made it clear that this only applies to those who are able to receive it. For example in the statement you selectively quoted, removing my specific reference to the limitations, I implied that here as I said “to accelerate death”.Please stop diverting the issue by such needless statements.
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wabrams
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I have read all three of your posts on this thread and know what you said. I was clarifying a point that many people do not understand: just b/c you can put nutrition into a person orally/feeding tube/intravenously doesn’t mean the body can process it.
I meant no offense, so I eagerly await your apology for your nasty comments.
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PatriceA
Guest
Yes! Everyone should have a LW and DPA. Its such a extremely stressful and very confusing time when you are confronted with a situation like this with a loved one. For the sake of anyone’s loved ones, they should make their wishes known with these two documents. Thank God my dad had the foresight to make these preparations before they were ever needed.Tom, you and Razzmom really provided the correct information in a way more articulate and organized way than I ever could have. It’s difficult for people (especially those who are non-clinical) to understand these issues.
The fact that there is so much confusion and misinformation and misrepresentation makes it obvious how terribly important it is to have a Living Will and a Durable Power of Attorney who will carry out your wishes so that someone confused by the “rules” doesn’t subject one to their opinions and their own wishes. The scary part is that even if someone has a LW and DPA, people still try to get legal intervention to violate the patient’s rights. If you don’t have these things spelled out before you get sick, you will be at the mercy of someone else
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rpp
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rpp
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Not quite sure why you have decided to take this tone, but it is really uncalled for as well as wholly unprovoked.
Please remain on topic and cease the one-sided personal attacks.
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wabrams
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rpp
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That is the best you can come up with? Since you seem unable to drop your rather silly and unprovoked little tantrum, I will no longer respond to or read any of your posts on this forum.
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