Death: Clarification regarding Catholic Theology

[Consigliere]

Good afternoon everyone,

I was hoping some of you might be able to clarify this issue that I have been trying to understand.

I. In mass I seem to hear two (contradicting) things about what happens immediately upon our human death.

1st View: Immediately upon our human death our souls are immediately ‘judged’. We will either enter (1) Heaven (2) Hell or (3) Purgatory.

2nd View: Here is where I am quite confused. Many times during mass the priest says a prayer such as the following:

“We pray for our brothers and sisters who have fallen asleep in the hope of the resurrection”

Now, this 2nd view appears to suggest that upon death, we ‘fall asleep’ and perhaps have no consciousness (and know nothing) until Jesus returns again to judge the living and the dead.

This confuses me greatly because this seems to contradict each other. These two views do not seem to reconcile. Either we (1) are immediately aware upon death where we are or (2) we are ‘asleep’ until Jesus returns to judge the living and the dead (those who have fallen asleep).

II. “Consciousness” Aspect Potentially Explained?

As a tangential issue, could anyone potentially explain what happens regarding our consciousness upon death? For instance, for those of us who have been ‘put under’ for surgery, we are rendered unconscious. (Just as soon as we’ve been put to sleep via the IV, we wake up in a split second after surgery is over). Since our brain is unconscious (the same when we die here on earth) then wouldn’t death be exactly the same? We die, our brain function ceases to function and we basically know nothing.

So, I’m also wondering whether anyone has any potential answers here to reconcile this with Catholic Theology on death.

Thank you very much for your time and peace be with you all.

Sincerely,

• C

 

[Bookcat]

Good afternoon everyone,

I was hoping some of you might be able to clarify this issue that I have been trying to understand.

I. In mass I seem to hear two (contradicting) things about what happens immediately upon our human death.

1st View: Immediately upon our human death our souls are immediately ‘judged’. We will either enter (1) Heaven (2) Hell or (3) Purgatory.

2nd View: Here is where I am quite confused. Many times during mass the priest says a prayer such as the following:

“We pray for our brothers and sisters who have fallen asleep in the hope of the resurrection”

Now, this 2nd view appears to suggest that upon death, we ‘fall asleep’ and perhaps have no consciousness (and know nothing) until Jesus returns again to judge the living and the dead.

This confuses me greatly because this seems to contradict each other. These two views do not seem to reconcile. Either we (1) are immediately aware upon death where we are or (2) we are ‘asleep’ until Jesus returns to judge the living and the dead (those who have fallen asleep).

No contradiction: “fallen asleep” is *simply a euphemism *for death (used by Paul too).

A poetic way of mentioning death.

Yes one does NOT “sleep” without consciousness until Christ returns.

 

[Bookcat]

II. “Consciousness” Aspect Potentially Explained?

As a tangential issue, could anyone potentially explain what happens regarding our consciousness upon death? For instance, for those of us who have been ‘put under’ for surgery, we are rendered unconscious. (Just as soon as we’ve been put to sleep via the IV, we wake up in a split second after surgery is over). Since our brain is unconscious (the same when we die here on earth) then wouldn’t death be exactly the same? We die, our brain function ceases to function and we basically know nothing.

Our state upon death is an “un-natural state” for our souls are separated from our bodies.

We will not then “need our brain” but rather God will provide for what we need in this unnatural state.

At the resurrection we will receive our body – a glorified body. We do not know terribly much as to what such will be like for us. But such will be wonderful.

 

[Bookcat]

Paul speaks even of his desire to leave this life and be with Christ Phil 1:23

Such expresses a desire to be with Christ in a very conscious way…

 

[Bookcat]

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a11.htm#1007

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#I

 

[steve_b]

Good afternoon everyone,

I was hoping some of you might be able to clarify this issue that I have been trying to understand.

I. In mass I seem to hear two (contradicting) things about what happens immediately upon our human death.

1st View: Immediately upon our human death our souls are immediately ‘judged’. We will either enter (1) Heaven (2) Hell or (3) Purgatory.

2nd View: Here is where I am quite confused. Many times during mass the priest says a prayer such as the following:

“We pray for our brothers and sisters who have fallen asleep in the hope of the resurrection”

Now, this 2nd view appears to suggest that upon death, we ‘fall asleep’ and perhaps have no consciousness (and know nothing) until Jesus returns again to judge the living and the dead.

This confuses me greatly because this seems to contradict each other. These two views do not seem to reconcile. Either we (1) are immediately aware upon death where we are or (2) we are ‘asleep’ until Jesus returns to judge the living and the dead (those who have fallen asleep).

II. “Consciousness” Aspect Potentially Explained?

As a tangential issue, could anyone potentially explain what happens regarding our consciousness upon death? For instance, for those of us who have been ‘put under’ for surgery, we are rendered unconscious. (Just as soon as we’ve been put to sleep via the IV, we wake up in a split second after surgery is over). *Since our brain is unconscious (the same when we die here on earth) then wouldn’t death be exactly the same? We die, our brain function ceases to function and we basically know nothing. *

So, I’m also wondering whether anyone has any potential answers here to reconcile this with Catholic Theology on death.

Thank you very much for your time and peace be with you all.

Sincerely,

• C

The particular Judgement (emphasis mine)
1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, or immediate and everlasting damnation.

Think of the story Jesus tells of the rich man and Lazarus. Luke 16:19-31 Both die. Do they have memory intellect and will fully functional? Absolutely.

We are created, both body and soul by God. The soul lives forever, it is immortal. It doesn’t die, it doesn’t sleep. The body otoh, is mortal, it dies. At death of the body, our soul and body seperate. The body is buried, our soul is immediately judged and we know immediately where we will spend eternity. One might ask how do we “know” anything, without a body, particularly without a brain where understanding and thinking occurs? What animated the body, including the brain, giving it life? It’s the soul. The soul then carries into eternity memory intellect & will fully functional. The body will rise in the resurrection of the dead, at the end of the world, whenever that is. The resurrected body and soul, are reunited. Those who are in hell are now in hell body and soul, those in heaven are now in heaven body and soul, purgatory ceases to exist.

 

[GEddie]

Although the “anatomy and physiology” of the human afterlife is somewhat murky, the theory of human death as unconsciousness (soul-sleep) has no part in Catholic teaching.

Even after your head has died, your mind will somehow survive. Your brain is part of your head; your mind is “part” of your soul (which really has no parts, but performs different tasks).

The communion of saints implies that we continue to know each other, at least.

And Scripture states that we will be with our LORD. You aren’t with somebody if you are asleep and they aren’t!!

ICXC NIKA

 

[Regina_Love]

Good afternoon everyone,

I was hoping some of you might be able to clarify this issue that I have been trying to understand.

I. In mass I seem to hear two (contradicting) things about what happens immediately upon our human death.

1st View: Immediately upon our human death our souls are immediately ‘judged’. We will either enter (1) Heaven (2) Hell or (3) Purgatory.

2nd View: Here is where I am quite confused. Many times during mass the priest says a prayer such as the following:

“We pray for our brothers and sisters who have fallen asleep in the hope of the resurrection”

Now, this 2nd view appears to suggest that upon death, we ‘fall asleep’ and perhaps have no consciousness (and know nothing) until Jesus returns again to judge the living and the dead.

This confuses me greatly because this seems to contradict each other. These two views do not seem to reconcile. Either we (1) are immediately aware upon death where we are or (2) we are ‘asleep’ until Jesus returns to judge the living and the dead (those who have fallen asleep).

II. “Consciousness” Aspect Potentially Explained?

As a tangential issue, could anyone potentially explain what happens regarding our consciousness upon death? For instance, for those of us who have been ‘put under’ for surgery, we are rendered unconscious. (Just as soon as we’ve been put to sleep via the IV, we wake up in a split second after surgery is over). Since our brain is unconscious (the same when we die here on earth) then wouldn’t death be exactly the same? We die, our brain function ceases to function and we basically know nothing.

So, I’m also wondering whether anyone has any potential answers here to reconcile this with Catholic Theology on death.

Thank you very much for your time and peace be with you all.

Sincerely,

• C

Dead people do look as if they’ve fallen asleep. It just a kind way of referring to their death. It is not their true state of being.

We have two judgements, The particular Judgement, and the general judgement. At our death depending on our choices, we proceed to either Hell, Purgatory, or in rare instances straight to Heaven. At the final judgement I believe it will be made clear to us the final consequences/impact of our existence in the world.

As an example, I used to volunteer as a Crisis Pregnancy counselor. I will not know until Heaven, and the end of the world, how many babies I may have helped save. How many people did those Babies grow up, and have… as the saying goes, “in taking one life, you have wiped out an entire nation!” so too In saving one life, we have saved an entire nation!

I believe we will continue to grow in widom in Heaven of all the good that God has done for us! Thus, as we learn each additional good that God has done for the world we will continually desire to “Break out in Praise,” for all His unending blessings.

 

[Consigliere]

These are all wonderfully helpful responses.

So to see if I am correct in summarizing the core idea:

There are two judgments. We are immediately judged at death. BUT, we are not ‘resurrected’ until Jesus comes again?

Therefore, we have all ‘fallen asleep’ (in our earthly bodies, which ultimately will turn to dust) but in the hope of the resurrection (or somehow taking another bodily form) at the second coming of Christ?

Is this correct?

I am still a bit confused about this dual judgement, however?

If every individual is judged at death, then why is there a need for a second judgement? Wouldn’t a second judgment be moot? Why would it even matter at all, since every individual’s judgment contributes to the entirety of the world’s total judgement?

For instance, Regina Love, you provided an example of this… but I wonder, what is the point of seeing the ‘impact’ we’ve made? It has no overall bearing on your immediate judgment, since God knows all.

Just slightly confused about this.

 

[Bookcat]

These are all wonderfully helpful responses.

So to see if I am correct in summarizing the core idea:

There are two judgments. We are immediately judged at death. BUT, we are not ‘resurrected’ until Jesus comes again?
Correct.

1001 When? Definitively “at the last day,” "at the end of the world."557 Indeed, the resurrection of the dead is closely associated with Christ’s Parousia:

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.558

Therefore, we have all ‘fallen asleep’ (in our earthly bodies, which ultimately will turn to dust) but in the hope of the resurrection (or somehow taking another bodily form) at the second coming of Christ?

Is this correct?
Yes --excepting those who are alive at the second coming.

Though our souls will not really be “asleep”…the sleep refers only to the death of the body

I am still a bit confused about this dual judgement, however?

If every individual is judged at death, then why is there a need for a second judgement? Wouldn’t a second judgment be moot? Why would it even matter at all, since every individual’s judgment contributes to the entirety of the world’s total judgement?

See scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#V

.

and scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a11.htm#I

 

[Consigliere]

I just read the excerpted part of the Catechism of the Catholic Church that was linked here.

I have a question regarding this.

First, who has created the Catechism?

Second, has not the Catechism changed throughout the ages?

• I only bring this point up because I recall one individual stating to me that in ‘older days’ Catholics believed that our earthly bodies would be resurrected and purposely faced their graves or were buried facing the East or something?

(Not sure if this is entirely accurate but I’m paraphrasing)

The point of which is that, at the time, official church teaching may have mandated this.

Then, suddenly this all changes with the times and the Catechism is now reformed, thus nullifying original teaching?

I’m just so confused because something as important as this doctrine on death shouldn’t be something that constantly changes over time, correct? It is either an IS or ISN’T.

• C

 

[steve_b]

If every individual is judged at death, then why is there a need for a second judgement?

Even though the souls have been judged, all bodies are resurrected together at the end. Since the end may not be for billions of years from now, then again it could be tomorrow, we don’t know, what we do know is, at the end all the dead who have ever lived, good and bad alike, will rise. By definition then, that can only come about at the end of the world. And that event will be a judgement as well, because in all liklyhood there could be people alive at the 2nd coming, but no more people will come into being, because as scripture says, in heaven we are no longer given in marriage.

 

[Bookcat]

I just read the excerpted part of the Catechism of the Catholic Church that was linked here.

I have a question regarding this.

First, who has created the Catechism?Many hands…and minds…and issued by Bl. Pope John Paul II

Second, has not the Catechism changed throughout the ages?
This one only came about in the 1990’s Various other “books” have yes existed in the past --often locally.

• I only bring this point up because I recall one individual stating to me that in ‘older days’ Catholics believed that our earthly bodies would be resurrected and purposely faced their graves or were buried facing the East or something?
  Yes that was the custom --and a good one. Just as in the early Church we prayed “towards the east”.

Paul from the beginning refers to the nature of of the Resurrection – and it is not a reviving of our bodies as they are now --but like Christs’ Body at his resurrection…

(Not sure if this is entirely accurate but I’m paraphrasing)

The point of which is that, at the time, official church teaching may have mandated this.
We have always professed the resurrection of the body. It is not new.

Then, suddenly this all changes with the times and the Catechism is now reformed, thus nullifying original teaching?
Such would not represent things as they are. The Catechism is not “now reformed” it is simply the Catechism. A “sure norm” for teaching the Catholic Faith. There is a hermeneutic of continuity not rupture.

 

[Bookcat]

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a11.htm#I

 

[fred_conty]

Good afternoon everyone,

I was hoping some of you might be able to clarify this issue that I have been trying to understand.

I. In mass I seem to hear two (contradicting) things about what happens immediately upon our human death.

1st View: Immediately upon our human death our souls are immediately ‘judged’. We will either enter (1) Heaven (2) Hell or (3) Purgatory.

2nd View: Here is where I am quite confused. Many times during mass the priest says a prayer such as the following:

“We pray for our brothers and sisters who have fallen asleep in the hope of the resurrection”

Now, this 2nd view appears to suggest that upon death, we ‘fall asleep’ and perhaps have no consciousness (and know nothing) until Jesus returns again to judge the living and the dead.

This confuses me greatly because this seems to contradict each other. These two views do not seem to reconcile. Either we (1) are immediately aware upon death where we are or (2) we are ‘asleep’ until Jesus returns to judge the living and the dead (those who have fallen asleep).

II. “Consciousness” Aspect Potentially Explained?

As a tangential issue, could anyone potentially explain what happens regarding our consciousness upon death? For instance, for those of us who have been ‘put under’ for surgery, we are rendered unconscious. (Just as soon as we’ve been put to sleep via the IV, we wake up in a split second after surgery is over). Since our brain is unconscious (the same when we die here on earth) then wouldn’t death be exactly the same? We die, our brain function ceases to function and we basically know nothing.

So, I’m also wondering whether anyone has any potential answers here to reconcile this with Catholic Theology on death.

Thank you very much for your time and peace be with you all.

Sincerely,

• C

Here is an accout of death and sleep in reference to Lazarus, in John 11;11+.

“…Lazarus our friend sleeps. But I go that I may wake him from sleep.” His disciples therefore said,“Lord, if he sleeps he will be safe.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought he was speaking of the repose of sleep. So then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead; and I rejoice on your account that I was not there, and that you may believe.”

So Jesus spoke of death as a sleep. And in a way it is a sleep, for at the resurrection of the last day, our bodies will be awakened as if from a deep sleep and will once more awaken to the full measure of happiness for which God had originally intended them to have.

Why do we have a second judgment? Because this will be a public judgment before all men for them to see the good we have done in the honor of Jesus, or the bad we have done in the dishonor of Satan. It will be a fullblown vision of our goodness and badness before everyone, and a public declaration of our oneness with Jesus or of our disunity with him.

It will also be seen all the goodness or badness of rulers and nations, a social event to display what civilizations have done to one another or for one another.

And in reward of the good, beautiful bodies will be granted them which will be glorified in some form. And for the bad, the bodies will not be transformed but remain in their ugly state for all to see.

One note: The sins admitted in confession will not be on display since by forgiveness they have been wiped out. And at this time, purgatory will end.

Here are some notes from Ott’s Fundamental’s of Catholic Dogma:

The souls of the just which, in the moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sins, enter Purgatory. (De fide.)
The purifying fire will not continue after the General Judgment. (Sent. communis.)

At the end of the world Christ will come again in glory to pronounce judgment. (De fide.)
The time of Jesus’ second coming is unknown to men. (Sent. certa.)
All the dead will rise again on the last day with their bodies. (De fide.)
The bodies of the just will be re-modeled and transfigured to the pattern of the risen Christ. (Sent. certa.)
The bodies of the godless will rise again in incorruption and immortality, but they will not be transfigured. (Sent. certa.)
Christ, on His second coming, will judge all men. (De fide. )
The present world will be destroyed on the Last Day. (Sent. certa.)
The present world will be restored on the Last Day. (Sent. certa.)

 

[Aloysium]

As a tangential issue, could anyone potentially explain what happens regarding our consciousness upon death? For instance, for those of us who have been ‘put under’ for surgery, we are rendered unconscious. (Just as soon as we’ve been put to sleep via the IV, we wake up in a split second after surgery is over). Since our brain is unconscious (the same when we die here on earth) then wouldn’t death be exactly the same? We die, our brain function ceases to function and we basically know nothing.

How about if I try to explain this. :twocents:

We are a whole made up of three, lets call it systems or structures of being: the physical, mental and spiritual

If you observe yourself reading this, you will note that if you close your eyes, the screen disappears.

• This happens because there are physical events taking place that require light passing from the monitor to your eyes, followed by neurological connection to and throughout your brain.
• At the same time that we can describe your experience this way, we can also understand it in terms of colour and words; this is your mind.
• You exist; your experience exists; the monitor exists and is real, your being and its being are in communion; it goes far beyond this but this is the world of the spirit which includes the fact that you as an individual person are having an experience that is whole.

Again these three aspects are united, although we can think about them as separate. Our having been made in the image of God, our human soul has qualities such as being, awareness, memory, reason, etc., which we exhibit when we are well. However, when we are unconscious or when our mind fades with age, the spiritual soul, which is totally identified with our body, will not be able to perform those neurological events that constitute memory etc. But upon our death, because these qualities belong to our soul, they continue in heaven, purgatory or hell until the day of judgement.

 

[Consigliere]

Bookcat:
Hi Bookcat,

In response to the following:

• I only bring this point up because I recall one individual stating to me that in ‘older days’ Catholics believed that our earthly bodies would be resurrected and purposely faced their graves or were buried facing the East or something?
  Yes that was the custom --and a good one. Just as in the early Church we prayed “towards the east”.

Paul from the beginning refers to the nature of of the Resurrection – and it is not a reviving of our bodies as they are now --but like Christs’ Body at his resurrection…

I’m curious why you state that this is a ‘good custom’. I ask because I assume people prayed to the East because the sun rises in the East? Is this not some old form of civilizations praying to the Sun (or a Sun God)?

 

[Consigliere]

How about if I try to explain this. :twocents:

We are a whole made up of three, lets call it systems or structures of being: the physical, mental and spiritual

If you observe yourself reading this, you will note that if you close your eyes, the screen disappears.

• This happens because there are physical events taking place that require light passing from the monitor to your eyes, followed by neurological connection to and throughout your brain.
• At the same time that we can describe your experience this way, we can also understand it in terms of colour and words; this is your mind.
• You exist; your experience exists; the monitor exists and is real, your being and its being are in communion; it goes far beyond this but this is the world of the spirit which includes the fact that you as an individual person are having an experience that is whole.

Again these three aspects are united, although we can think about them as separate. Our having been made in the image of God, our human soul has qualities such as being, awareness, memory, reason, etc., which we exhibit when we are well. However, when we are unconscious or when our mind fades with age, the spiritual soul, which is totally identified with our body, will not be able to perform those neurological events that constitute memory etc. But upon our death, because these qualities belong to our soul, they continue in heaven, purgatory or hell until the day of judgement.

This is an interesting take, thank you for your thoughtful response.

Perhaps it’s because we are human that we may be unable to ‘think’ of anything without thinking that we can maintain some consciousness without brain function.

I’m curious what Catholics, then, think about those who have had a Near Death Experience where their brain function has ceased?

 

[Bookcat]

I’m curious why you state that this is a ‘good custom’. I ask because I assume people prayed to the East because the sun rises in the East? Is this not some old form of civilizations praying to the Sun (or a Sun God)?

No.

Though the “rising sun” plays a part in they symbolism.

There are various reasons – but the one I will point out is it was a way of “Conversi ad Dominum” --a way of “turning towards the Lord” -in that the idea is that Christ would return coming from the East and that one was turning in that direction.

“In the early Church there was a custom whereby the Bishop or the priest, after the homily, would cry out to the faithful: “Conversi ad Dominum” – turn now towards the Lord. This meant in the first place that they would turn towards the East, towards the rising sun, the sign of Christ returning, whom we go to meet when we celebrate the Eucharist. Where this was not possible, for some reason, they would at least turn towards the image of Christ in the apse, or towards the Cross, so as to orient themselves inwardly towards the Lord. Fundamentally, this involved an interior event; conversion, the turning of our soul towards Jesus Christ and thus towards the living God, towards the true light. Linked with this, then, was the other exclamation that still today, before the Eucharistic Prayer, is addressed to the community of the faithful: “Sursum corda” – “Lift up your hearts”, high above all our misguided concerns, desires, anxieties and thoughtlessness – “Lift up your hearts, your inner selves!” In both exclamations we are summoned, as it were, to a renewal of our Baptism: Conversi ad Dominum – we must always turn away from false paths, onto which we stray so often in our thoughts and actions. We must turn ever anew towards him who is the Way, the Truth and the Life.”

Pope Benedict XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20080322_veglia-pasquale_en.html

 

[Aloysium]

I’m curious what Catholics, then, think about those who have had a Near Death Experience where their brain function has ceased?

I can tell you what I think.
Not everything labeled a near death experience would be the same thing.
In some situations, I would understand it as the soul reflecting on itself, on its condition at the time, its eternal nature, relationship with the divine, etc.’ like being at the door and looking out.
But each case may be individual, the important thing being the meaning for the person going through it. Usually, it changes their lives.