Death, Lies, & Videotape

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This is a very strong video - :sad_yes:

I think anyone who has ever had a pet dog can make a correlation to the behavior of this cow - if you’ve taken a pet to the vet, they are frightened just not knowing what is going to happen - for many this alone is a reason not to eat meat.

For me it is one of many reasons - the environment, resources, the impact on the people who work in big animal agri-business… and how this choice to move to a plant based diet - TODAY - in the United States - just resonates with my faith.

And as this is a new thread, I hope people would be willing to have a dialogue about this respectfully, and charitably - even if we disagree - lets not be disagreeable! This is Catholic Answers Forum - lets communicate as people of faith! 🙂 Peace
*
***P.S. - to preempt the usual replies and arguments I’ve seen on CAF:

(1) This does not mean that people who care about this cow care more about animals
than people.
(2) This does not mean that people who care about this cow don’t also feel passionate
about pro-life issues
(3) Yes Jesus ate fish & lamb - the fish and lamb were not raised in factory farms - not
comparable to what is available for most people today.
(4) If you raise your own cows (or hunt for food) and they don’t live like this - OR - you
have a medical issue that you have been advised by a doctor that you must eat meat
OBVIOUSLY this discussion - since your health needs to come first - isn’t about your
access to meat.
 
I eat meat, but I don’t like watching any animal die. In this video, I’ve seen the cow react how any cow would react in a similar circumstance whether it’s being killed or not. It would have reacted that way if it was just in line for a vaccination (hypothetically of course). Cows are herd animals and follow the herd which is why it actually wanted to go in there at the beginning of the video. When all the cows had gone in and there was no more “herd” to be with, it got scared. That is a normal cow reaction. It may or may not have sensed death, we don’t know. What we do know is what we ourselves think and project into this situation.

Sad? Definitely! But I’d be willing to bet that watching an animal die of normal causes would bring tears to our eyes just as much as this video. The fact that man is the cause of this animal’s death and his seeming detatchment from life does make it much worse to bear, however.

I never understood how a person could care so much about the life of an animal, though and not the life of a plant. It’s like plants are disposable and we can do anything we want with them. Rip them out of the ground, tear them to shreds, eat them right from the ground (you do realize they are still living when you eat a salad or raw veggie, I’m sure) and there is absolutely no concern that we just ended life by eating that.

Perhaps someone could enlighten me on this, because ever since I was young, I have never understood how someone could say that one life is more important than another (regarding the consumption of animals vs plants anyway). Yes, I know originally God created the plants for eating, however we are now fallen and that is not the case anymore, as death entered the world after the fall of man. Since then animal has eaten animal as well as plant.

I do have a health motive here. Whenever I try to go strictly vegetarian, I get very weak and sick and always end up that eating some meat gives me strength. It could be phsycological, and if I was younger and in better health I would probably try going vegetarian again, but I cannot in my current condition.

That all said, this was a horrible video, but I dont’ see any immorality in it, just brutality. But how exactly is one supposed to kill a cow? I’m not very familiar with slaughter techniques myself, so there very well may be a better way, it’s just that I can’t imagine any right now.

As for the camera doesn’t lie - I never believe cameras anymore. They could be tampered with and the sound here after the camera goes black does seem to be overlaid and unnatural after what just happened, since the cow was either unconcious or dead already (we don’t know, they could have injected it with something or painlessly knocked it unconcious before they killed it, since we couldn’t actually see anything but the hooves and the cow falling) and there should have been no sound coming from there, but when the camera went black, you heard very loud “cow scream” noises and loud people, like there was a struggle. Struggle from a dead or unconcious cow? I don’t think so. It seems to me to have been added for effect.

…just another perspecitve from someone who eats meat on occasion, but doesn’t particularly have a preference for it.

Snert

This is my view and hopefully did not come across as uncivil. I just presented my view of what I witnessed and how I interpreted it. Also, I would like an answer to my plant question above, on why plants are so inferior and deserve to die while animals do not. This is not a provocative statement - it is a genuine plea to get a viable answer to what I have wondered about almost my whole life. I have gotten answers from people, but I have never gotten any that I truly understood and made sense to me.

Thanks… 😊
 
Snerticus said:
I never understood how a person could care so much about the life of an animal, though and not the life of a plant. It’s like plants are disposable and we can do anything we want with them. Rip them out of the ground, tear them to shreds, eat them right from the ground (you do realize they are still living when you eat a salad or raw veggie, I’m sure) and there is absolutely no concern that we just ended life by eating that.

Perhaps someone could enlighten me on this, because ever since I was young, I have never understood how someone could say that one life is more important than another (regarding the consumption of animals vs plants anyway). That all said, this was a horrible video, but I dont’ see any immorality in it, just brutality. But how exactly is one supposed to kill a cow? I’m not very familiar with slaughter techniques myself, so there very well may be a better way, it’s just that I can’t imagine any right now.

As for the camera doesn’t lie - I never believe cameras anymore. They could be tampered with and the sound here after the camera goes black does seem to be overlaid and unnatural after what just happened, since the cow was either unconcious or dead already (we don’t know, they could have injected it with something or painlessly knocked it unconcious before they killed it,

This is my view and hopefully did not come across as uncivil. I just presented my view of what I witnessed and how I interpreted it. Also, I would like an answer to my plant question above, on why plants are so inferior and deserve to die while animals do not. This is not a provocative statement - it is a genuine plea to get a viable answer to what I have wondered about almost my whole life. I have gotten answers from people, but I have never gotten any that I truly understood and made sense to me.
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I watched the video and squirmed in my chair the whole time. I didn’t want to watch it and I even felt physical nausea. And I would imagine that the video is a PG version of what happens every day millions of times. You have to wonder about being so removed from this process, and how that affects one’s decision to eat meat without guilt.

Snerticus, I think that you are able to detatch yourself from the fear and suffering of this animal. And I think that is sad. I want to give this animal a reprieve and set him free. That is the emotion that welled up in me as I viewed this. Christ is the Lamb of God, the lamb an innocent animal (like this cow), who suffers and dies horribly. Why is the innocent lamb chosen to symbolize Christ? We humans must stop being so selfish, so greedy, so wrapped up in our earthly wants and desires, and consider and be respectful to God’s other creations, and show them mercy. Showing mercy is Christlike. Licking your chops, anticipating your steak. looking away from the cruelty, desensitising yourself to it is earthly and narcisistic. And I myself have been guilty of this. I am not casting stones at you Snerticus. I have been there too.

Brutality is immoral, is it not? Especially when it is not necessary. Especially when the brutality is used to subjugate a lesser being to satisfy one’s own selfish earthly wants and desires. I have learned, and very recently that eating meat is completely nutritionally unneccessary. Many of us have been duped over the last decades to believe that we need to eat meat. Well that is a fairy tale fabricated by the industries that make money from these animal products.

Just today on the news I heard about another beef recall because of ecoli. And on the same news program they talked about how America keeps getting fatter and fatter and how something needs to be done. I can’t recall what state had the highest rates of obesity, but I do remember that Colorado was the lowest with 19% of the residents being obese. Sorry I wish I could remember what state was the highest and what the percentage was. Animal products and animal fat has a lot to do with obesity and is also associated with many other diseases like cancer, heart disease, osteoporosis, etc.

So I think as a people we are being punished for our cruelty of animals, and if not punished, we are at least being called to reassess the turn our diets have taken.

And Mr. Snerticus, your remarks about maybe they injected the cow with something and it painlessly fell. You should learn more about slaughterhouses practices. No slaughterhouse spends money on sedatives or pain pharmaceuticals. If they did you would not be able to afford meat. These animals are treated as meat machines, commodities, not the beautiful living beings created by God that they are. I am so glad that I have come to see this, and am sorry for all the years that I ate meat without giving even a tiny thought to the living creature that lost his life brutally to feed me.

And your plant argument is silly. Plants do not have central nervous systems and are not sentient. You can ask a botanist about this. People use that argument when they can’t think of any other argument. You have to come up with something better because you will actually lose respect when start saying what about plants, they have feelings too…

I apologize to you if anything that I said sounded mean. I think you should watch that video again. It isn’t about intellectualizing and finding ways justify the eating of meat. If you feel uncomfortable seeing the animal like this, if you silently root for it to miraculously escape this situation…then you are capable of mercy, of considering the welfare of another, lesser being, of a being that God created and loves, a being that God put on this earth, not for us to abuse and tyranize, but to perhaps teach us something more significant. Through this lowly animal we can learn what it means to be merciful.

Thank you Marfran for giving us this video to watch. I am so glad that I have pulled my head out of the sand.
 
My question was not silly. I neither stated plants had feelings nor that they had central nervous systems. Your proposal that I said this is silly.

I simply said plants have life. What I want to know is why we have to pick and choose one form of life over another. And so it’s okay to eat a form of life that has no feeling or central nervous system? It’s okay to kill something because we can’t associate with it? My argument is not with anyone here but the poster above, sincey SuzySunshine found my question silly. Suzy, why do you think it’s okay to eat a living organism just because it doesn’t have the same nervous system we are familiar with? Or that it doesn’t have human or animal “feelings”? Why do you feel it is okay to kill that type of organism to eat and not another?

As for the slaughter methods, no I am not familiar with them, and I clearly stated that.

Someone once said the only stupid question was one that was not asked. I asked and now I’m being told I’m silly!

PS - and I’m glad you feel I’m detatched from animals. You certainly know my heart and have seemingly judged it correctly. If God judges us as we judge others, then you may be a bit surprised when you get yours. IOW - just because I seem to be detatched from the death of this animal, does not make it so.

You have no idea how God has placed me into this world in relatioin to the animal world, so do not judge me based on a single opinion.

Snert
 
Snerticus said:
This is my view and hopefully did not come across as uncivil. I just presented my view of what I witnessed and how I interpreted it. Also, I would like an answer to my plant question above, on why plants are so inferior and deserve to die while animals do not. This is not a provocative statement - it is a genuine plea to get a viable answer to what I have wondered about almost my whole life. I have gotten answers from people, but I have never gotten any that I truly understood and made sense to me.

Thanks… 😊
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Simply:
Animals are able to move, while plants remain stationary.
Animals also have a complex nervous system that can perform many tasks, while plants lack a brain

Animals will react and recoil from pain - my tomatoes don’t do that… 😉

Is this the type of answer you were looking for? What other kind of answers have you had that didn’t completely answer the question for you?

There is the simple differences and perhaps looking on it as we and animals take plants, consume them and turn them into energy making them part of our life.

Today it is possible - to live quite well in the United States - on a plant based diet for most people - so we can remove ourselves from this killing of animals with brains, animals that recoil from pain, and we can survive quite well.
 
Marfran said:
The camera doesn’t lie. bit.ly/7Ii3H Please watch the entire video so we can discuss.
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First of all, I would like to point out that this plant probably is not in the United States. Now, let me speak for a bit as someone who grew up on a farm where we raised cattle for food.

For the vast majority of these animals’ lives they lived so much better than wild animals it isn’t funny. We made sure they were well fed and well taken care of because we got a better price for animals that were taken care of. You can’t sell a sick, or sickly, bovine for beef – they won’t buy it. Believe it or not, milk cows are usually cared for much worse than beef cows.

After this time of carefree grazing and being taken complete care of is over, the animal is sold at auction, in a lot, and taken to the slaughter house. In the United States the slaughter houses I have been to do not operate like the one in the video. The cow is killed one of two ways.

A deadly blow is given to the head, similar to shooting but it uses a high speed hydraulic spike instead of a bullet. Also, the animals aren’t taken in one at a time like in this video, they are lined up and many are terminated at once. It’s faster, more efficient, and the animals to not deal with the loss of heard mentioned by an earlier poster. This is the preferred method because it is quicker, cheaper, and more humane. (yes the order there is intentional)

The second method involves a high voltage electric shock delivered directly to the brain. You know, similar to the way we kill people. But again this isn’t done one at a time in the United States.

The plant in the video seemed like a very low production plant. I took them what almost 2 minutes between the each cow? Believe me, that is an extremely low production facility. This is not how the majority of the meat we eat is killed. If you really think that processing plants take two minutes to kill one cow, you are sadly mistaken. Think about the argument you’re making for a second. You’re claiming that these plants are designed to process meat like the animals are a commodity (which they are). Do you really think that two minutes to kill a single cow and get it out of the way is all that efficient? I’m telling you that with a different set up 30 or more cows can be killed and moved to processing in the same time.

Furthermore, personifying the cows reaction is an incredibly flawed approach. The bovine species are not predators (humans are – check out our eye placement and the types of teeth we possess) and they have no natural defenses besides size. Guess what they do when they hear a loud noise? They run the other way as fast as they can. Don’t believe me? Next time you’re driving past a cattle pasture and they are out blow an air horn. It’s how we used to get the animals in quickly when it started to rain. Blow an air horn from the opposite side of the pasture as the barn and they all run inside.

I would also like to point out that the chances of your vegetables not being fertilized with animal by-products (feces, intestines, fat, ground bone, etc.) is almost zero. Even most of the “organic” vegetables (BTW: I’d really like to see an inorganic vegetable sometime) are fertilized with such things, because these things are organic. This is what really makes me laugh about vegetarians who claim to be of higher moral caliber because they don’t eat meat. Unless you grow every single thing you eat you, most likely, are eating recycled animal products.

Finally, this is not really that inhumane of a way to kill meat. Do you know how they kill the food dogs in Korea? They chase them down the street with baseball bats beating them to death because the adrenaline makes the meat sweeter. Now that is cruel.
 
I own cows and horses. They react this way even when you are trying to do something good to them, like spray something on them to keep inch-long flies from biting them.

They are prey animals, that is how God made them to protect them. They do not rationally assess a situation and consider whether it’s dangerous or not; they just get away fast from anything which scares them. And they don’t know the difference between being about to get slaughtered or being about to get medicine when they are sick and will react the same way to either.
 
Marfran said:
The camera doesn’t lie.
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Nope, but the person that posted this on youtube does.

I am immedietely suspicious given that the poster made claim to the cow being sentient, aware of death, and not wanting to die.
All of that cannot be known.

An earlier poster noted that there is brutality and it makes one question eating meat.
No, it doesn’t. At least not I.

As far as brutality goes, there seems to be very little.
From what can be gleaned from the film, there seems to be a loud pop, and the cow drops immedietely. This would indicate a quick (if not instant) death.

Questioning meat consumption…not as likely as questioning the motivations of the people behind this film.
 
vz71 said:
Nope, but the person that posted this on youtube does.

I am immedietely suspicious given that the poster made claim to the cow being sentient, aware of death, and not wanting to die.
All of that cannot be known.

An earlier poster noted that there is brutality and it makes one question eating meat.
No, it doesn’t. At least not I.

As far as brutality goes, there seems to be very little.
From what can be gleaned from the film, there seems to be a loud pop, and the cow drops immedietely. This would indicate a quick (if not instant) death.

Questioning meat consumption…not as likely as questioning the motivations of the people behind this film.
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When people respond uncharitably it is very difficult not to question their motivation too. Is it possible to simply post that one disagrees with the conclusion that another has made? :confused:
 
Drawmack said:
I would also like to point out that the chances of your vegetables not being fertilized with animal by-products (feces, intestines, fat, ground bone, etc.) is almost zero. Even most of the “organic” vegetables (BTW: I’d really like to see an inorganic vegetable sometime) are fertilized with such things, because these things are organic. This is what really makes me laugh about vegetarians who claim to be of higher moral caliber because they don’t eat meat. Unless you grow every single thing you eat you, most likely, are eating recycled animal products.
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As a vegan making no claim to any moral position in relationship to another… however animals do not need to be killed, either this way or some other, to produce some types of fertilizer. It is very difficult however - as you note - to try to eliminate all of the ways animal products are used in our lives (i.e. I understand animal byproducts are used in car tires) so it is completely impossible to be 100% vegan - I just chose to try to eliminate use of animal products as much as possible. Not just in response to cruelty issues, but also resources, environmental impact, impact on people working in this industry.
Drawmack said:
Finally, this is not really that inhumane of a way to kill meat. Do you know how they kill the food dogs in Korea? They chase them down the street with baseball bats beating them to death because the adrenaline makes the meat sweeter. Now that is cruel.
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You are certainly right about this… very sad:(
 
St_Francis said:
I own cows and horses. They react this way even when you are trying to do something good to them, like spray something on them to keep inch-long flies from biting them.

They are prey animals, that is how God made them to protect them. They do not rationally assess a situation and consider whether it’s dangerous or not; they just get away fast from anything which scares them. And they don’t know the difference between being about to get slaughtered or being about to get medicine when they are sick and will react the same way to either.
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My dog reacts this way to going to the vet too — she just hates it, even though it is for her good. 😦 I guess this is why this video may be difficult for me to watch because I can see the same kind of reaction in an animal utilized for food in the US (even if the plant is somewhere else) and my own pet - it helps me see the correlation - I saw a shirt once that had pictures of little kitties, puppies and a little calf and piglet and the quote was “Why eat one and love the other?”
 
4elise said:
Simply:
Animals are able to move, while plants remain stationary.
Animals also have a complex nervous system that can perform many tasks, while plants lack a brain

Animals will react and recoil from pain - my tomatoes don’t do that… 😉

Is this the type of answer you were looking for? What other kind of answers have you had that didn’t completely answer the question for you?

There is the simple differences and perhaps looking on it as we and animals take plants, consume them and turn them into energy making them part of our life.

Today it is possible - to live quite well in the United States - on a plant based diet for most people - so we can remove ourselves from this killing of animals with brains, animals that recoil from pain, and we can survive quite well.
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It kind of answers my question, but not satisfactorily enough to stop eating meat. To me, life is life - whether we think it can feel pain or not. Picking and choosing which type of life is okay to eat seems to me to be personal preference, especially since some animals have a very rudimentary nervous system with no brain and don’t seem to respond to touch or pain while some plants can feel touch and respond to it immediately much as an animal would. Scripturally as Christians, there is no basis for not eating meat, especially after St. Peter recieved his vision from God that all meat is “clean”. Since it is not a sin to eat meat (other than Catholic days of abstinence) or to kill an animal for meat, it is not necessary to make one feel guilty, belittled or inadequate because they eat meat (and I’m not suggesting you did such a thing, but I know some do).

I have no objections if one refuses to eat meat becuase they feel it is animal cruelty. I actually feel it is a noble cause and wish that I had the health and will power to do it as well. However I feel it absolutely necessary to point out that not everyone feels it is cruelty to kill an animal for meat, and for those that do to respect that. The Church certainly doesn’t object to it, although neither the Church nor I condone mistreatment of animals in doing it. 😦

I once had a friend that when I found out she was vegetarian, I asked why and she said because she thought it was cruel to kill animals for eating. Before I could say anything (and I was going to say that’s okay by me) she said “but I also realize that others don’t feel the way I do and I don’t have a problem with that either. It’s just I don’t eat meat because of that reason.” She was totally fine that I ate meat and didn’t try to make me feel guilty for it either. I really respected her for that. Up until that time, I thought that every vegetarian on the planet hated people who ate meat. I’m seeing here that some have very little respect for us, while others are willing to concede that not everyone shares their views. While I don’t share your views, I do respect that you choose to follow them.

And that’s fine by me. 🙂

Snert
 
Snerticus;5393578 said:
Animals possess some human features (eyes, nose, bones, muscles, etc), so we tend to humanize them and feel compassion. The same is not true with a plant. I suppose it is the same reason so many fail to recognize the human nature of a pre-born child.

In the film. how many of us looked at the cow and envisioned that it was us in that trough? I thought the cow looked well fed and met a quick and painless death. He was never really made to suffer with the exception of a bit of anxiety.

Yesterday, I read the gospel passage where Jesus tells Peter to put out to the deep. Peter, who had been toiling all day trying to catch fish, was commanded by Jesus to cast the nets into the water. The catch was so large it filled two boats and nearly sank them.

If Jesus was opposed to using animals for human consumption, why would he have made it so that all of those fish were made to be ensnared. Maybe some of the fish, realizing they were no longer free to swim away, also experienced a little trepidation?

Animals are made for man. Losing sight of that reality clouds our judgement. While, I believe that we should be respectful of God’s gift of nature, I see no travesty in slaughtering an animal so that people could eat.
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Snerticus said:
It kind of answers my question, but not satisfactorily enough to stop eating meat. I really respected her for that. Up until that time, I thought that every vegetarian on the planet hated people who ate meat. I’m seeing here that some have very little respect for us, while others are willing to concede that not everyone shares their views. While I don’t share your views, I do respect that you choose to follow them.

And that’s fine by me. 🙂

Snert
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Thanks for the respect 😉 - and I offer it in return 😉

I started a thread earlier in the year ‘Respect for all life’ — and on the first two posts of that thread I shared WHY choosing a vegan diet resonated with MY Catholic faith - and hoping to call others to CONSIDER the issues of where our food comes from today, for most of us in the United States - in light of Catholic Social Teaching. I make this connection, others do not. It makes sense to me, it doesn’t to others. I would just hope to invite people to consider the possibilities, the options - but sometimes people get very defensive on these issues because it is about a life long choice, a way of living that we become accustomed to, and change or even the suggestion of change can be very challenging . 🙂

It is hard also for those of us who chose not to eat meat to often be accused of making judgments on others, as you say, people just assume we will, or do. Peace
 
cargau said:
Animals possess some human features (eyes, nose, bones, muscles, etc), so we tend to humanize them and feel compassion. The same is not true with a plant. I suppose it is the same reason so many fail to recognize the human nature of a pre-born child.

In the film. how many of us looked at the cow and envisioned that it was us in that trough? I thought the cow looked well fed and met a quick and painless death. He was never really made to suffer with the exception of a bit of anxiety.

Yesterday, I read the gospel passage where Jesus tells Peter to put out to the deep. Peter, who had been toiling all day trying to catch fish, was commanded by Jesus to cast the nets into the water. The catch was so large it filled two boats and nearly sank them.

If Jesus was opposed to using animals for human consumption, why would he have made it so that all of those fish were made to be ensnared. Maybe some of the fish, realizing they were no longer free to swim away, also experienced a little trepidation?

Animals are made for man. Losing sight of that reality clouds our judgement. While, I believe that we should be respectful of God’s gift of nature, I see no travesty in slaughtering an animal so that people could eat.
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thank you for this this gentle response 😉

Certainly many agree with you, that we should be treating nature with respect, and in some cases I (a vegan) would also agree with you that there is no travesty in slaughtering an animal so that people can eat - for me the difference is that I do not need to eat meat, as there are an abundant source of vegetable protein in the United States - so my respect for nature includes removing animal sources from my diet.

I believe that all of Jesus’ actions were to teach us - not about fishing - but about the way we will be called to bring all men (and women) to Christ. Peace 🙂
 
4elise said:
When people respond uncharitably it is very difficult not to question their motivation too. Is it possible to simply post that one disagrees with the conclusion that another has made? :confused:
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apologies if I have come off as too abrasive.

However somone needs to call the poster of that video on the deception that is intentionally put in there.
 
vz71 said:
apologies if I have come off as too abrasive.

However somone needs to call the poster of that video on the deception that is intentionally put in there.
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Thank you for recognizing that 🙂 I for one really appreciate that apology -

However, I’m not sure what deception you are talking about - I think the video is what it is - the poster has drawn one conclusion - you and others perhaps have drawn another

So to say that there is deception in the video - intentionally put in there - would imply that it was somehow ‘doctored’ - from what I can see it is in the conclusions on watching this video that there is a difference - so it would be great if we could all recognize this and hopefully any following discussions we can all continue to be charitable to each other - 😉
 
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