Death, Lies, & Videotape

[Marfran]

The most important person is** YOU**!!! Peace to all the good stewards!

** youtube.com/watch?v=BJFjeJZC67c** This is an additional video.

**WARNING: Contains GRAPHIC FOOTAGE. **

 

[Marfran]

**“And what is this God?” I asked the earth and it answered: “I am not he,” **and all the things that are on the earth confessed the same answer. I asked the sea and the deeps and the creeping things with living souls, and they replied, “We are not your God. Look above us.” I asked the blowing breezes, and the universal air with all its inhabitants answered. **“I am not God,” **I asked the heaven, the sun, the moon, the stars, and **“No,” they said, “we are not the God for whom you are looking.” **And I said to all those things which stand about the gates of my senses: **“Tell me something about my God, you who are not He. Tell me something about Him.” **And they cried out in a loud voice: "He made us."

SAINT AUGUSTINE, The Confessions, X:9

 

[vz71]

However, I’m not sure what deception you are talking about - I think the video is what it is - the poster has drawn one conclusion - you and others perhaps have drawn another

It is expected that the poster of a video knows more of the video. With this expectation comes additional responsibility in telling about the video.

In the case of the video shown, the poster adds this to the video description:

Animals are sentient and do know they are going to die. You can see how this one cow just don’t want to go in there because he knows death awaits him. How heartbreaking.

This description is bordering on outright lie.

 

[cargau]

thank you for this this gentle response

Certainly many agree with you, that we should be treating nature with respect, and in some cases I (a vegan) would also agree with you that there is no travesty in slaughtering an animal so that people can eat - for me the difference is that I do not need to eat meat, as there are an abundant source of vegetable protein in the United States - so my respect for nature includes removing animal sources from my diet.

I believe that all of Jesus’ actions were to teach us - not about fishing - but about the way we will be called to bring all men (and women) to Christ. Peace

I respect your decision. But, wouldn’t it be more efficacious if you were to fast from meat as a form of prayer for someone who may have lost their way rather than to protect the feelings (and life) of an animal. I believe that what you are doing is really nobel. I don’t think I could make that sacrifice.

Of course Jesus actions were to draw us to Him. Jesus didn’t tell the apostles to go out to the shallow waters, it was the deep. It’s not as safe or comfortable in deep water (especially when the boats are about to sink) as it is in shallow waters closer to shore. He wants us to submerge ourselves in His mercy and love and to trust him totally. And, when we do, the catch is great.

But Jesus chose this action to communicate this message. Surely, He would not have done so if he felt that harming animals in any way or for any reason was wrong…

 

[Marfran]

vz71: I think that a tactile response to the scene in the video is all that is necessary here. You can turn the sound off and ignore any comments on the video written or spoken. As one of God’s children how do you feel in ***your ***heart for the plight of this animal? I encourage all who watch this video to turn your brains off for a second and experience what is in your heart.

 

[kennewickmike]

The second video is horrible. All I know is that I want to leave this world with as little blood on my hands as possible. I do not hold anything against people who eat meat but be civil about it. Respect God’s creations, and buy free range animals or hunt for your meat. These factory farms are a processing lines of destruction/evil.

 

[SuzySunshine]

I respect your decision. But, wouldn’t it be more efficacious if you were to fast from meat as a form of prayer for someone who may have lost their way rather than to protect the feelings (and life) of an animal. I believe that what you are doing is really nobel. I don’t think I could make that sacrifice.

At first it may seem like a sacrifice, but you GAIN so much, your soul BLOOMS! You grow in compassion and mercy, not only for animals, but also for your fellow man. We humans are so wrapped up in chasing earthly desires, eating luxury foods, that the growth of our souls often suffers. Granting mercy to an animal can help your heart to open and grow.

There are many people in the world who do not have the luxury to eat meat. For those of us who do, is it a blessing or a test? Those of us who have the MOST also have the most responsibility to consider our actions, and probably need *even more *spiritual growth than those who live in a constant condition of suffering and lack of essentals. There is a global food crisis and meat consumption plays a vital, negative role in that. If you can afford to eat meat, giving it up and living in solidarity with your less fortunate brothers and sisters can only be a BONUS to your awareness and spiritual growth.

I was a meateater until very recently. I never thought much about where the meat came from or that it used to be a living, breathing being created by God. Then I got a clunk on the head. I wish I had gotten the clunk sooner.

I see that one of the tags for this thread is heart disease. Consumption of animal products contributes to heart disease. And what kind of heart can not be moved to mercy by that video? A diseased one, a closed one, a darkened one…

 

[chain]

My biggest issue with the video is not knowing where it was filmed. I have been around slaughter houses a few times - pretty sure one in the US would not stay open very long with those conditions. On top of that they had the nice “gunshot” sound. Something I have never heard at a slaughter house (perhaps it was just timing).

In the US, a device that looks like a hammer is used to fall the cows. It uses a blank (or pneumatic) fired captive bolt that causes a concussion that knocks the cow unconscious. (Electrical shock can also be used to render unconscious). The cow is then hung and bled - death by bleeding out. You don’t want the animal to die stressed out - adrenaline will taint the meat.

Now I have seen cows go nuts around slaughter houses - most likely because they smell the blood.

 

[Marfran]

I see that one of the tags for this thread is heart disease. Consumption of animal products contributes to heart disease. And what kind of heart can not be moved to mercy by that video? A diseased one, a closed one, a darkened one…

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[Marfran]

My biggest issue with the video is not knowing where it was filmed. I have been around slaughter houses a few times - pretty sure one in the US would not stay open very long with those conditions. On top of that they had the nice “gunshot” sound. Something I have never heard at a slaughter house (perhaps it was just timing).

In the US, a device that looks like a hammer is used to fall the cows. It uses a blank (or pneumatic) fired captive bolt that causes a concussion that knocks the cow unconscious. (Electrical shock can also be used to render unconscious). The cow is then hung and bled - death by bleeding out. You don’t want the animal to die stressed out - adrenaline will taint the meat.

Now I have seen cows go nuts around slaughter houses - most likely because they smell the blood.

chain: where is your heart? It doesn’t matter where the video is from. How do you ***feel ***when you watch it? Does it excite you? Do you wish this weren’t so? Is it painful to watch? Do you feel nothing? Let us all be honest in our core reactions. If you are uncomfortable watching this, does that feeling not indicate that you should perhaps examine the situation with a little more thought?

 

[4elise]

It is expected that the poster of a video knows more of the video. With this expectation comes additional responsibility in telling about the video.

In the case of the video shown, the poster adds this to the video description:

This description is bordering on outright lie.

In the case of the video shown, the poster adds this to the video description:
Quote:
Animals are sentient and do know they are going to die. You can see how this one cow just don’t want to go in there because he knows death awaits him. How heartbreaking.
This description is bordering on outright lie.

This is what I meant - the poster drew this conclusion from this video - you have not.
I think inferring that the poster is being deceptive is what is uncharitable really, and I am sure that wasn’t your intention - but that is how it sounds

 

[4elise]

I respect your decision. But, wouldn’t it be more efficacious if you were to fast from meat as a form of prayer for someone who may have lost their way rather than to protect the feelings (and life) of an animal. I believe that what you are doing is really nobel. I don’t think I could make that sacrifice.

Of course Jesus actions were to draw us to Him. Jesus didn’t tell the apostles to go out to the shallow waters, it was the deep. It’s not as safe or comfortable in deep water (especially when the boats are about to sink) as it is in shallow waters closer to shore. He wants us to submerge ourselves in His mercy and love and to trust him totally. And, when we do, the catch is great.

But Jesus chose this action to communicate this message. Surely, He would not have done so if he felt that harming animals in any way or for any reason was wrong…

I’m sorry if I’ve given the impression that my choice to be vegan was only to protect the feelings (and life) of an animal - it is MUCH larger than that for me - issues of resources, environmental damage, the impact on those who work in this field…

On your last note - I believe Jesus chose to communicate to the disciples and to us in ways that we can easily understand - ways that related to their lives - I believe I need to be aware of how my food is produced** today **and make choices that reflect my faith.

Yes sometimes it is a sacrifice (I love doughnuts) - and at those times I do as my mother would always tell me ‘offer it up’ Peace

 

[vz71]

This is what I meant - the poster drew this conclusion from this video - you have not.
I think inferring that the poster is being deceptive is what is uncharitable really, and I am sure that wasn’t your intention - but that is how it sounds

No, you were right. I believe the person was being deceptive. And it was this that undercut their point.
As Marfan pointed out, this video can stand on its own. The poster is intentionally trying to play out people’s emotions and also is planting ideas that are false.

There is no way to know what is going on in the cow’s brain, yet the poster lays claim to it. I immedietely spot the deception, and view the entirety of the video through the same lens I would any other propaganda.

What was my feeling when viewing the video?
About the same as my feeling when I was in high school and was required to kill and disect my own frog. Not something I want to do every day, but necessary.

 

[Snerticus]

As far as watching a video from the heart, I have this opinion: Watching a video from the heart is not the same as watching a video with strictly emotion. Emotion gets strong depending on the content. Did you ever hear the term “divide and conquer”? The evil one uses this tactic quite often on us mortal humans. The first thing he does is get us all riled up and emotional, so that reason becomes less of a threat. Once we’re in that state, all emotional and riled up - we see that others who have not reacted the way we did may have come to a different conclusion and we get angry that they don’t feel the same way we do. When that happens, we think they are blind and try to point out what we see from our side, trying to “correct” their blindness. If they still don’t agree, we get angry and although we may not display our anger, we try our best to convince them that we are right and they are wrong… to the point of belittling them and making them look stupid to others.

Now after this happens, there is definite division. Score one for the evil one. Now, the only thing that’s left is to conquer. That will happen if both sides don’t concede there is a difference and accept it, but instead they both fester in their own opinions.

Watch with the heart? Try watching with detachment of emotion. You don’t need emotion to figure out what’s right and what’s wrong. And watching with the heart sometimes necessitates watching with decreased emotion. Have you ever done something to a close friend or family member based solely on your strong emotion and regretted it later? That’s not watching the situation and reacting from the heart. It’s watching and reacting from emotion. The two are separate and distinct, and in most cases cause completely different reactions.

I suspect there are some here that watched the first video only with emotion. The second one was probably even more emotional, and if they watched that, then they got caught up in an even deeper wave of emotion. Then, they were absolutely convinced that anyone who didn’t see it their way was wrong and totally heartless, when in reality, they didn’t use their own “heart” in the situation.

My own two cents, take it or leave it…

God Bless,
Snert

 

[4elise]

No, you were right. I believe the person was being deceptive. And it was this that undercut their point.
As Marfan pointed out, this video can stand on its own. The poster is intentionally trying to play out people’s emotions and also is planting ideas that are false.

There is no way to know what is going on in the cow’s brain, yet the poster lays claim to it. I immedietely spot the deception, and view the entirety of the video through the same lens I would any other propaganda.

What was my feeling when viewing the video?
About the same as my feeling when I was in high school and was required to kill and disect my own frog. Not something I want to do every day, but necessary.

I’m sorry if you think I was agreeing with you on this… I don’t think the person was being deceptive at all, and I think that drawing this conclusion is very uncharitable.

I think we all have agendas - we want people to agree with us - but I hope we are all adults who can engage in civil discourse.

You may perceive that you have ‘spotted a deception’ but from what I read I see it as an interpretation - one you may not agree with, but certainly not worthy of resorting to calling someone a liar. - some may have watched the video and didn’t think it warranted concern - and if this is the case - discuss that instead.

You note “Not something I want to do every day, but necessary” - equated to the video and something you had to do in school… I would argue that it is possible to avoid killing animals for food today in the United States and live quite well on a plant based diet.

Again - this may be something you disagree with - and that would be were we would have come to a different conclusion… but as people of faith leave the discussion with respect for each other. Blessings.

 

[4elise]

As far as watching a video from the heart, I have this opinion: Watching a video from the heart is not the same as watching a video with strictly emotion. Emotion gets strong depending on the content. Did you ever hear the term “divide and conquer”? The evil one uses this tactic quite often on us mortal humans. The first thing he does is get us all riled up and emotional, so that reason becomes less of a threat. Once we’re in that state, all emotional and riled up - we see that others who have not reacted the way we did may have come to a different conclusion and we get angry that they don’t feel the same way we do. When that happens, we think they are blind and try to point out what we see from our side, trying to “correct” their blindness. If they still don’t agree, we get angry and although we may not display our anger, we try our best to convince them that we are right and they are wrong… to the point of belittling them and making them look stupid to others.

Now after this happens, there is definite division. Score one for the evil one. Now, the only thing that’s left is to conquer. That will happen if both sides don’t concede there is a difference and accept it, but instead they both fester in their own opinions.

Watch with the heart? Try watching with detachment of emotion. You don’t need emotion to figure out what’s right and what’s wrong. And watching with the heart sometimes necessitates watching with decreased emotion. Have you ever done something to a close friend or family member based solely on your strong emotion and regretted it later? That’s not watching the situation and reacting from the heart. It’s watching and reacting from emotion. The two are separate and distinct, and in most cases cause completely different reactions.

I suspect there are some here that watched the first video only with emotion. The second one was probably even more emotional, and if they watched that, then they got caught up in an even deeper wave of emotion. Then, they were absolutely convinced that anyone who didn’t see it their way was wrong and totally heartless, when in reality, they didn’t use their own “heart” in the situation.

My own two cents, take it or leave it…

God Bless,
Snert

What a good post. I think you have some really good points about how we engage each other, for all of us - those (like me) have seen the video and recoiled and others who watch it with a more dispassionate view.

I think one of the other issues in communicating as we do here in forums is that it can be hard to hear each other’s voices, tone, see each other’s faces.

I know when I feel strongly about something and am communicating face to face I have the interplay of the other to gauge how I am speaking - it is much harder here when we are only looking at a computer screen.

We all come to this (and all) issue(s) from a different place - and while we may believe / or not believe something is important because of our backgrounds, what we’ve been exposed to, etc… it can be difficult to get that across without moving to as you say*“If they still don’t agree, we get angry and although we may not display our anger, we try our best to convince them that we are right and they are wrong… to the point of belittling them and making them look stupid to others.” *

I hope all of us can work on this - and avoid these mistakes -
It is good to feel strongly about issues, and to share this - but lets try to do so speaking to each other in charity… Blessings

 

[Snerticus]

I neglected to say in my last post that emotion is a totally human experience and so we can never truly detatch ourselves from it, but lessening it to a manageable degree so it doesn’t constantly flavor what we do or say would be a good starting point.

I have to admit, 4elise, if it wasn’t for you and kennewickmike bringing sanity to this thread, I would be totally turned off to the vegan lifestyle for a long time to come! The lack of compassion in other’s posts would have reconfirmed my original hypothesis about vegans/vegetarians and I myself may have become overwhelmed with negative emotions.

Thanks for your posts! I actually have added more variety of veggies in my diet in the last 6 months or so, and found them a bit more tasty than I used to, so maybe there is hope for me yet! Too bad my health issues are preventing me from experimenting with it, as I’ve tried plant protien vs animal protein and they didn’t react the same with me, so I have to stick with animal protien until I get a bit stronger and perhaps I’ll try again.

I do have to ask, how do you get your taurine/amino acids/B vitamins on a veg diet?

God Bless,
Snert

 

[Drawmack]

As a vegan making no claim to any moral position in relationship to another… however animals do not need to be killed, either this way or some other, to produce some types of fertilizer. It is very difficult however - as you note - to try to eliminate all of the ways animal products are used in our lives (i.e. I understand animal byproducts are used in car tires) so it is completely impossible to be 100% vegan - I just chose to try to eliminate use of animal products as much as possible. Not just in response to cruelty issues, but also resources, environmental impact, impact on people working in this industry.

I wasn’t questioning that these things can be done without animal by-products, I was simply stating that they are done with animal by-products. I do not begrudge anyone the choice of what they eat. To be completely honest, I do not care what anyone else puts in their system – why should I? I simply ask for the same respect from others. If someone expresses why they think eating meat is wrong, that is fine with me, but do not do so with videos that border on propaganda. That’s all I’m saying really.

 

[Drawmack]

My dog reacts this way to going to the vet too — she just hates it, even though it is for her good. I guess this is why this video may be difficult for me to watch because I can see the same kind of reaction in an animal utilized for food in the US (even if the plant is somewhere else) and my own pet - it helps me see the correlation - I saw a shirt once that had pictures of little kitties, puppies and a little calf and piglet and the quote was “Why eat one and love the other?”

I respond to that in one of two ways, depending on my mood. I either tell the person they are right we should eat all those animals. Or I simply ask them why not? I have yet to get an answer to this question that isn’t based on multiple logical fallacies.

 

[Drawmack]

The most important person is** YOU**!!! Peace to all the good stewards!

** youtube.com/watch?v=BJFjeJZC67c** This is an additional video.

**WARNING: Contains GRAPHIC FOOTAGE. **

The way I see it is this. Animal vs. Man, Man wins. It really is that simple. There is not enough space to raise free range animals and still grow enough plant foods to feed man. It is a simple fact of the size of the planet.