Death of Cardinal Stephanos II Ghattas, C.M., patriarch emeritus

[Amadeus]

Cardinal Stephanos II Ghattas, C.M., *Patriarch Emeritus *of Alexandria of the Copts, died yesterday in Cairo, Egypt, at the age of 89.

Pope Benedict XVI sent a telegram extolling the late Patriarch Emeritus to His Beatitude Antonios Naguib, Patriarch of Alexandria of the Copts.

Cardinal Ghattas ranked second among the Cardinal-Patriarchs (Cardinal Sfeir of the Maronites is senior) in the Order of Bishops of the College of Cardinals. Patriarch Naguib will soon replace him in the College if and when he is elevated to the Cardinalate by the Pope at the next consistory, although as the most junior among the Cardinal-Patriarchs.

May he rest in peace!

 

[ronyodish]

May his memory be eternal.

Rony

 

[Cluny]

Patriarch Naguib will soon replace him in the College if and when he is elevated to the Cardinalate by the Pope at the next consistory, although as the most junior among the Cardinal-Patriarchs.

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This would not be an elevation, but a demotion.

 

[Amadeus]

Patriarch Naguib will soon replace him in the College if and when he is elevated to the Cardinalate by the Pope at the next consistory, although as the most junior among the Cardinal-Patriarchs.

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This would not be an elevation, but a demotion.

In the Catholic Church, this is an elevation.

 

[Aramis]

More correctly, it will grant His Beattitude a vote in the next papal election, should it happen before he turns 80.

 

[malphono]

In the Catholic Church, this is an elevation.

It is absolutely not a demotion, but I wouldn’t exactly call it an elevation either. Remember that the “Red Hat” is merely an honorific. All it does is allow the one on whom it was bestowed to vote in conclave (and even that only until he has reached the “canonical age”). The matter of who is allowed to vote in conclave is a discipline and can be changed. Personally, I would like to see all Oriental and Eastern Patriarchs (including Catholicoi and Major Archbishops) included ex officio. But of course that’s only part of my wish list.

 

[jimmy]

Eternal memory.

In the Catholic Church, this is an elevation.

A Cardinal is not an elevation from Patriarch. A Cardinal is not higher than a Patriarch. This can be seen by the fact that ordinary priests like Henri de Lubac, Hans urs Von Balthasar, and others have been made Cardinals.

 

[Aramis]

Cardinal-patriarchs hold precedence over all other cardinals, period, and over other patriarchs.

 

[Amadeus]

Cardinal-patriarchs hold precedence over all other cardinals, period, and over other patriarchs.

Not exactly.

Cardinal-Patriarchs are members of the Order of Bishops in the College of Cardinals. They are outranked by the 6 (currently 5) Latin Rite Cardinal-Bishops, Cardinal Sodano being number one as Dean of the College and followed by Cardinal Etchegaray as Vice Dean.

Cardinal-Patriarch Sfeir of the Maronites comes 7th (6th) and outranks all the other Eastern Rite Cardinal-Patriarchs. He was followed by the late Cardinal-Patriarch Ghattas of the Copts, then by Cardinal-Patriarch Daoud of the Syrians, and, lastly, Cardinal-Patriarch Delly of the Chaldeans.

However, the Cardinal-Patriarchs outranked all the Cardinals in the Order of Priests and in the Order of Deacons (Curial Cardinals).

 

[Deacon_Lance]

Amadeus,

Seniority of See determines precedence among the patriarchs. The CCEO ranks them Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Babylon, and Cilicia. The Coptic Patriarch, since his see is Alexandria, is first in precedence and that is why he led the panachida for Pope John Paul II.

Fr. Deacon Lance

 

[Amadeus]

Amadeus,

Seniority of See determines precedence among the patriarchs. The CCEO ranks them Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Babylon, and Cilicia. The Coptic Patriarch, since his see is Alexandria, is first in precedence and that is why he led the panachida for Pope John Paul II.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Agreed.

But we are talking about the order of precedence among the Cardinal-Patriarchs in the College of Cardinals. Cardinal Sfeir is first and Cardinal Ghattas was second.

The determinant is the date of elevation to the Cardinalate. Thus, the successor to HB Ghattas as Patriarch of the Copts will be the most junior among the Cardinal-Patriarchs if and when he is elevated to the Cardinalate.

In the Divine Liturgy offerred by the Eastern Catholic Churches on the 7th day after the death of Pope John Paul II, the main celebrant was Cardinal Sfeir of the Maronites.

 

[malphono]

… In the Divine Liturgy offerred by the Eastern Catholic Churches on the 7th day after the death of Pope John Paul II, the main celebrant was Cardinal Sfeir of the Maronites.

Not for anything, Amado, and with all due respect, I really wish you had said Patriarch Sfeir. He is “Patriarch of Antioch and All the East of the Maronites” first and foremost. The “red hat” is an honorific (ref my earlier post).

 

[Aramis]

Not for anything, Amado, and with all due respect, I really wish you had said Patriarch Sfeir. He is “Patriarch of Antioch and All the East of the Maronites” first and foremost. The “red hat” is an honorific (ref my earlier post).

Not really. It’s emblematic of vote in the college; that is more than just honorific (much to the shock of several “traditionalist latins” I know… the same ones who claimed I went Orthodox by switching to a Byzantine parish…).

But if one is going to use the Cardinalate honor, one should not drop the patriarchal dignity, either: Patriarch Emeritus Stephanos Cardinal Ghattas, or His Beattitude Stephanos Cardinal Ghattas, etc.

In the case of the EC Cardinals, most do not take up other offices in the Vatican bureaucracy; many Latin Cardinals do.

 

[Amadeus]

Not for anything, Amado, and with all due respect, I really wish you had said Patriarch Sfeir. He is “Patriarch of Antioch and All the East of the Maronites” first and foremost. The “red hat” is an honorific (ref my earlier post).

Not really. It’s emblematic of vote in the college; that is more than just honorific (much to the shock of several “traditionalist latins” I know… the same ones who claimed I went Orthodox by switching to a Byzantine parish…).

But if one is going to use the Cardinalate honor, one should not drop the patriarchal dignity, either: Patriarch Emeritus Stephanos Cardinal Ghattas, or His Beattitude Stephanos Cardinal Ghattas, etc.

In the case of the EC Cardinals, most do not take up other offices in the Vatican bureaucracy; many Latin Cardinals do.

Dear malphono:

The “red hat” of those elevated to the Cardinalate is not merely honorific. Together with their ring, the Cardinals are invested with rank and dignity next only to the Pope.

As Cardinals in conclave they are the sole electors of the next Pope, a prerogative signifying a duty for and in behalf of the entire Catholic Church.

Whether acting collegially or individually, the Cardinals assist the Pope, as Supreme Pontiff, in the care of the universal Church. For instance, they are on call to assemble in ordinary or extraordinary consistories for consultation on grave matters or on special needs of the Church. Or, a Cardinal may be deputed by the Pope to represent him in some solemn celebrations or assembly of persons as his alter ego or, as a special emissary, be entrusted with a particular pastoral task.

Only the College of Cardinals, in special or general congregations led by the Dean, has the power and authority to continue governing the Catholic Church during the interregnum (the period between the death of a Pope and the election of his successor).

Dear Aramis:

Yes, those are the formal ways to address Cardinal-Patriarchs.

However, when they are in Rome or are already retired as Patriarchs living anywhere in the world, they can simply be addressed as Cardinals, which entitles them to all the privileges.

 

[malphono]

Dear malphono:

The “red hat” of those elevated to the Cardinalate is not merely honorific. Together with their ring, the Cardinals are invested with rank and dignity next only to the Pope.

As Cardinals in conclave they are the sole electors of the next Pope, a prerogative signifying a duty for and in behalf of the entire Catholic Church.

Whether acting collegially or individually, the Cardinals assist the Pope, as Supreme Pontiff, in the care of the universal Church. For instance, they are on call to assemble in ordinary or extraordinary consistories for consultation on grave matters or on special needs of the Church. Or, a Cardinal may be deputed by the Pope to represent him in some solemn celebrations or assembly of persons as his alter ego or, as a special emissary, be entrusted with a particular pastoral task.

Only the College of Cardinals, in special or general congregations led by the Dean, has the power and authority to continue governing the Catholic Church during the interregnum (the period between the death of a Pope and the election of his successor).

Yes, I know all about the College of Cardinals, and a good part of its history. It’s off topic and I’m not going to belabor it (and anyway, this was discussed at some length in another thread a few months back) but anyway, that history is of the Western Church.

All of that, including who votes in conclave, age-limits, precedence, etc, etc … etc, is strictly a matter of discipline and custom, and could (in theory, anyway), be changed today.

As far as I am concerned, a Patriarch, (or Catholicos, or Major Archbishop) is that primarily. If he is offered a Red Hat (and of course if he accepts it) that’s fine. In my Oriental eyes, it will always be a secondary honor.

 

[Formosus]

It most certainly is not an elevation. The Patriarchs, Catholoci and Major Archbishops are of a higher rank then any subordinate office within the Roman church, irrelevant to what the current disciplines are among the Latins. Especially those Patriarchs of the ancient Apostolic sees of Antioch and Alexandria. Would you want the Pope made a member of the Patriarch of Alexandria’s court or synod as a subordinate member?

 

[malphono]

It most certainly is not an elevation. The Patriarchs, Catholoci and Major Archbishops are of a higher rank then any subordinate office within the Roman church, irrelevant to what the current disciplines are among the Latins. Especially those Patriarchs of the ancient Apostolic sees of Antioch and Alexandria. Would you want the Pope made a member of the Patriarch of Alexandria’s court or synod as a subordinate member?