Death Penalty, Am I wrong?

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Cuddy, it is impossible to have a discussion about the legitimacy of the death penalty before recognizing that the whole concept is subservient to defending life of all parties involved. You seem to disagree, and thus there is no point in discussing this further.
Then don’t. 🤷

I will contine to post on this thread, whether you decide to stop or not.

Considering that you have not refuted or rebutted my posts and merely reiterated your own position without support, then that is probably for the best. It will save you time and this thread space. 👍

Thanks for playing. Toodle pip!
 
Can you? I am not sure I understand just exactly what type of document you are looking for.
“It is essential to fault that it be voluntary; and in this respect it deserves punishment rather than mercy. Since, however, fault may be, in a way, a punishment, through having something connected with it that is against the sinner’s will, it may, in this respect, call for mercy.” (Aquinas ST II/II 30,1)
*
“this movement of the mind” (viz. mercy) “obeys the reason, when mercy is vouchsafed in such a way that justice is safeguarded, whether we give to the needy or forgive the repentant.”* (Augustine, City of God)
In fact, why have you not already done so?:confused:
I was actually trying to prompt a discussion about mercy, since it is so often claimed that mercy obliges us to spare the life of the guilty. Unfortunately I can’t someone willing to or capable of actually defending that position with more than a statement that they are of course right and don’t need to defend the claim.

Ender
 
You’ll wait, presumably because a new Pope might signifcantly alter the Church’s position. To even consider this possibility, one must presume that the last Pope, along with the overwhelming majority of Catholic Bishops where wrong, and remain wrong, along with the current Pope who has, despite your seeming ignorance of it, spoken out forcefully against the death penalty both before and after becoming Pope.
Given that the previous pope radically changed 1900 years of Church teaching on this subject this argument is not as strong as you think it is. You may argue for the unlikelihood of lightening striking twice in the same place but let’s not pretend that what you say cannot happen … just did in 1995.

Ender
 
But you don’t. Look at your comment about wait and see.
Thanks be to God you and other anonymous posters have no authority to make such determinations for that which I know to be true, based on the CCC.
Ignoring for a moment that one would have to either be woefully ignorant … presumably because a new Pope …one must presume that the last Pope, …your seeming ignorance of it

One truly accepts and believes in the Holy and Apostolic nature of the Church, or one does not.
Again, I accept the apostolic nature of the Church, just not your authority to define what has been declared infallible and what has not. But that is not surprising considering your above propensity for presumption and assuption.

I am not alone. Cardinal Ratzinger, as a member of the Curia, held my position. His latest remark in 2005
There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia."
As does the apologists at CA
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0503fea2.asp

One most not put on the faithful any extra burden of obedience beyond what the Church teaches. We must be careful to new Catholics especially not to impose our opinions on them as burdens which they must carry. The Church does not require us to be against the death penalty, only that we stick the the legitimacy with in the narrow limits it has defined.

Now, my reason for wanting to see how this doctrine develops in the future? This is simple. One can not escape, not does the Church deny, that this is a new line of doctrine. It is almost to be expected that, as with any new doctrine, it will be most fluid this first generation. As data comes in and if theologians will ever try to validate the assumed premise that we can incarcerate murders for life (safely), then this may or may not change.

The doctrine of mercy, justice and the value of life will not change. But how it is applied might.

Call me more names and make more accusations if you must. I stand with the Church on this in the matter of doctrine and moral teaching, if not in every application.
 
Is it appropriate to be merciful in all situations?
Yes. Even where I believe the death penalty needs to be applied, I must consider mercy to be balanced against justice. Then the death penalty should always be an occasion of sorrow, not exaltation and administered as mercifully as possible. After all, death is not the end of life, but is a a sentence we are all under. If even in executing one we show compassion, then we may yet win the soul, which is worth inestimatebly more than the life.
 
The SoCalRc is the world champ at this-
Again, I accept the apostolic nature of the **Church, just not your authority to define what has been declared infallible and what has not. **But that is not surprising considering your above propensity for presumption and assuption.
The Pn offered this quote from the Cardinal-
There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia."
Now even I understand that. I’ll predict the SoCal will post it is taken out of context, or we don’t understand what we just read.

I’m not pro DP, but I agree the Church has not taken a definitive stance on the matter.
 
Capital punishment runs afoul of the PDE in various ways,
As far as I can tell all applicatons of double effect are morally ambigious and a little troubling. It is generally the sort of reasoning we apply when we want to do something, are sure we are morally in the right, but need to explain a conflict under Christianity.

Look at Augustine’s Just War concept, now firmly in Catholic tradition. Initially, Christians were a violently persecuted minority, and overhwhelmingly avowed pacifists, who refused to fight or serve in the military. They weren’t ‘pragmatists’, thinking of course we have to fight, of course we have use violence to obtain our rights… They simply followed the faith as literally as they understood it, and somehow not only survived the persecution, literally became the empire.

Suddenly, being the state, things like a military, which was primarily a police force, not a force of conquest by Augustine’s time, seemed pragmatically necessary, so Augustine reasoned a way for a ‘good’ act to cancel out a ‘bad’ act.

In all the Gospels, Jesus contradicted just one part of the Jewish Bible. He directly challenged “an eye for an eye”, and listed examples of resisting evil directly, but without violence, and in a way that spiritiually challenged the agressor. But protecting oneself with violence is deep within our nature, it permeates most human cultures, and if summer movies are any indication, the myth of “redemptive violence” is almost universally accepted without question. Given that, and the culture he lived it, it seems perfectly natural that St. Thomas Aquinas was able to ‘reason’ that the ‘bad’ effects of violent self defense are mitigated by the ‘good’ effects.

Some of the most interesting reading on this is the work of our current Pope. He is not as accessible in his writing as Pope John Paul II, he writes like a theologian, but it is well worth reading. When you understand the body of his work, it becomes no surprise that he postulated (as then Cardinal Ratzinger) that in the current age, meeting the criteria for a Just War is quite likely impossible. He also has directly questioned applications of “redemptive violence”.

With double effect, we could go on and on. Again, look at ectopic pregnancy. Accepting the concept that two deaths are better than one abortion is easier than, say, accepting serious medical risk for a non viable fetus.

Again, Benedicts insights are helpful. He acknowledges that we are often confronted with complex moral dilemnas, and being human, are uncertain of God’s will. The danger is when we apply concepts like double effect or proportionate reasons with a sense of moral certainty. If we act with certainty, then we are not showing proper humility to God, whose true will we cannot know.
but lets focus on this one for now. Isn’t the killing (i.e. the violation of the moral imperative to “not kill”) the means by which one obtains the moral imperative of fostering and protecting humanity at large?
Think of the time and circumstances. You have a violent person who is a danger to others. You are living in a society that is a bad harvest away from famine. You lack the resources (or think you do) to incarcerate and care for this person for the rest of their life. Also, imprisonment also carries a moral stigma (we often forget that in, say, Matt 25, prisoners are mentioned in the context of the true criteral for salvation multiple times, and if we look at the culture and the period, imprisonment had some cultural resistance).

Rather it is DE, or proportionate reasons, the thinking was that humanity at large must be protected. The state is not taking the life of the executed, the executed is forfeiting it, because he/she threatens the purpose of the law and leaves the state no choice…

The Church has pointed out, rightly I believe, that the state now does have a choice. So if the state chooses death, it directly devalues life. Since the punishment has become so rare among civilized nations, most the pragmatic arguments are moot, we are statistically less safe, not more, than countries that do not execute. Much like JPII’s predictions about Iraq, this is a case where measurable reality and reason have become, in time, wholly in line with the Church’s morality.

The desire to hurt someone in retaliation is wholly human, but it is not what we are called to do. I keep mentioning it is simple, we either accept the Church’s directions or apostolic or not. But it actually even more fundemental. We either accept that there is, in fact, an all powerful and just God, or we do not.

Peace
 
Thanks be to God you and other anonymous posters have no authority to make such determinations for that which I know to be true, based on the CCC.
US Conservatives are always cutest when you get them off script. Without fail, they sputter and then just repeat the same claims, presumably believing that truth is not objective reality, but something repeated often.

It is also funny, because they abandon any pretext of cognitive thought or rational discourse. If you happen to look back, you will find that I posted a link to precisely the same article to you.

If you actually read it, you will find that A) Akin’s assessment of the context and meaning of Ratzinger’s letter matches mine, not yours and B) Akin agrees with me in that the Pope’s prudential opinion deserves defference (which makes sense, because that is spelled out in both the Catechism and the Dogmatic Constitution).

Don’t feel bad about being caught not even going through the pretext of reading and understanding what I have sent you (or for that matter, the sources that your post). Bamarider (whose piping in is equally predictable, since US conservatism spends a lot of time fostering fearfulness, as well as ignorance, so it is only natural for its followers to seek the safety of numbers) is a poster child. He once forgot to even pretend that thought and comprehension are involved and declared that he didn’t need to actually read something to know that it was wrong… :rolleyes:

I wouldn’t have volunteered to serve in combat in a time of war if I didn’t believe that you should have the right to serve multiple masters. But as a Catholic, I feel compelled to keep insisting that you refrain from corrupting the faith in lieu of coming to grips with which one you love most.
 
I’m late to this debate, and don’t wanna go back through all these pages, and try to decipher all SoCal’s loooooooong posts. so I need the quick version.

SoCal- is it your premise the DP is ALWAYS wrong? Yes or no please. No long weather report.
 
US Conservatives are always cutest when you get them off script. …It is also funny, because they abandon any pretext of cognitive thought or rational discourse. If you happen to look back, you will find that I posted a link to precisely the same article to you…If you actually read it, you will find that A) Akin’s assessment of the context and meaning of Ratzinger’s letter matches mine, not yours and B) Akin agrees with me in that the Pope’s prudential opinion deserves defference
Again with the wild assumtions. For the record, I read the article back when it first came out and on his blog. The issue of the death penalty the one in which I am the most read and knowledgable precisely because I did give deference to the Holy Father’s opinion, even in areas apart from his expertise and charism. I have probably at one time or another read everything he said on the subject, which is precisly why I do not bother to go and re-read things people suggest. It is also why I know that no where has any evidence, support or reason ever been given for the assertion that we may safely incarcerate anyone. This statement has been treated as an axiom without a shred of evidence ever been given to support its truth.

Please try to live with the fact that you will not convince me other than what the CCC says, that there is still room for the death penalty in a limited application. Also, it is not right to throw the extra burden of belief on those when the Church has not mandated such belief.

Everyone here, especially the original poster, if in doubt, go to your pastor and stick with the CCC. It is the sure norm of what we are to believe. Those here that try to re-define that norm are doing so without authority.
 
I’m late to this debate, and don’t wanna go back through all these pages, and try to decipher all SoCal’s loooooooong posts. so I need the quick version.

SoCal- is it your premise the DP is ALWAYS wrong? Yes or no please. No long weather report.
The premise is: The Pope is the Vicar of Christ, whose teachings should be shown proper deference and religious assent of mind and will, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra.

Just like it says in the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church.

However, your statement is a great example of the ‘judge and speak first, collect actual information and attempt to mentally process it second’ conditioning that I was talking about.

Your repeating your often stated belief that there is something disdainful about explaining anything at length also touches on one of the biggest triumps of modern conservative propoganda. In addition to promoting ignorance and fear, the neat trick of making people proud of it is there as well. After all, no one but one of the conservative faithful would nod their head at the ‘logic’ of ‘if you can’t explain it to me like I’m two, in a short enough soundbite to hold my attention, it must not be real…’

It is actually kind of facinating. We’ve had threads here with howls about the injustice of the estate tax, seemingly with real rage and indignation. Even though I am the only one in the discussion who has a high likelihood of actually paying it - and it doesn’t bother me a wit. I’ve got plenty of ways to pass on wealth while I’m alive and most the tax my wife and I will end up paying will be on unrealized capital gains - basically wealth that has never been taxed.

But mention that children are going to bed hungry in not just the wealthiest nation in the history of man, but the highest density of self proclaimed Christians in existance, and you get a diatribe that explains that all that time that Elvis was giving people cars and hospitals, he was taking away their right to walk and die at home…

For someone cursed with sequentially firing neurons, it is actually kind of entertaining. It reminds me of one of Shermer’s essays on distinguishing between ideology and cultism.
 
Again with the wild assumtions. For the record, I read the article back when it first came out and on his blog. The issue of the death penalty the one in which I am the most read and knowledgable precisely because I did give deference to the Holy Father’s opinion…
For those following, see what I mean? I just noted that he cited the same article back to me that I had linked for him just a few posts ago, and pointed out that it matches my interpretation of Cardinal Ratzingers remarks not his - and even reiterates my point about proper deference to the Pope even in prudential matters.

But somehow, not actually reading my point of view or understanding the articles he, himself, cites, leads logically to the conclussion that he is a superior authority…

Which, of course, is Evangelical Protestant thinking. If I’m quoting two popes, including the current one, the local and universal Catechisms, papal encyclicals, and the Dogmatic and Pastoral Constitutions of the Church, then we already have the highest possible authority - for devout Catholics.
 
For those following, see what I mean? I… then we already have the highest possible authority - for devout Catholics.
Then I will just fail to live up to level of what one west coast Catholic considers to be a devout Catholic. Fortunately, my conscience is clear and, at least in this matter, well-formed.
 
Let me add one thing further. Perhaps the reason why I diverge from SoCal, when in reality we are both truly trying to follow Church teaching as close as we can, is my experience, which is something we all have to live with. I have know dozens of murderers, a few of which received the death penalty. Two who did not were two 15 year old boys. They had commited a henious murder together and by statute (which I agree with) were not eligible for the death penalty. It was clear who the leader and the follower. We knew that, once in prison, the young teen’s propensity for violence would continue. He was killed by seventeen, stabbed to death in a fight.

Just last year we had two people murdered in a hotel based on a hit ordered from inside prison. Under the current interpretation of “cruel and unusual punishment,” we simply can not safely contain the worst of our society. When you see these faces and know that they will kill again, it is hard to understant the position of those who state we can safely incarcerate people, especially when no reason is given and the statement is treated like a motto, that if repeated enough will become fact.
 
I asked this simple question-
SoCal- is it your premise the DP is ALWAYS wrong? Yes or no please. No long weather report.
and got this-
The premise is: The Pope is the Vicar of Christ, whose teachings should be shown proper deference and religious assent of mind and will, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra.
Just like it says in the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church.
However, your statement is a great example of the ‘judge and speak first, collect actual information and attempt to mentally process it second’ conditioning that I was talking about.
Your repeating your often stated belief that there is something disdainful about explaining anything at length also touches on one of the biggest triumps of modern conservative propoganda. In addition to promoting ignorance and fear, the neat trick of making people proud of it is there as well. After all, no one but one of the conservative faithful would nod their head at the ‘logic’ of ‘if you can’t explain it to me like I’m two, in a short enough soundbite to hold my attention, it must not be real…’
It is actually kind of facinating. We’ve had threads here with howls about the injustice of the estate tax, seemingly with real rage and indignation. Even though I am the only one in the discussion who has a high likelihood of actually paying it - and it doesn’t bother me a wit. I’ve got plenty of ways to pass on wealth while I’m alive and most the tax my wife and I will end up paying will be on unrealized capital gains - basically wealth that has never been taxed.
But mention that children are going to bed hungry in not just the wealthiest nation in the history of man, but the highest density of self proclaimed Christians in existance, and you get a diatribe that explains that all that time that Elvis was giving people cars and hospitals, he was taking away their right to walk and die at home…
For someone cursed with sequentially firing neurons, it is actually kind of entertaining. It reminds me of one of Shermer’s essays on distinguishing between ideology and cultism.
http://bestsmileys.com/dancing/4.gif

Where I come from we call that a tap dance around the question, in California who knows what they call it.

And we still don’t know what the answer is. I keep tellin ya don’t have to explain your answer, becaue there is no right or wrong to it, in light of what the Cardinal believes.

At least Cardinal Ratzinger writes in a way we can understand-
There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia."
My position on the DP is I oppose it, unless it is some kind of extreme case, my reason being I just don’t feel the state needs to be in that business. BUT- I also feel my fellow Catholics who might think otherwise, are not outside of Church teaching.
 
I asked this simple question-

and got this-

http://bestsmileys.com/dancing/4.gif

Where I come from we call that a tap dance around the question, in California who knows what they call it.
Look at your question, “Is it your premise…”. I explained the premise of all my prior responses in a couple of sentences, since you have frequently boasted about the shortness of your attention span.
And we still don’t know what the answer is.
Actually, devout Catholics do. Pope John Paul II called upon us directly to turn away from the death penalty during his visit to the US, Pope Benedict reiterated the call during his. US Bishps Conferences are united in their call for abolision, and the Local Catechism, which takes precedence over the Universal Catechism for US Catholics, identifies our expanded use of the death penalty in the US as a causal factor in the culture of death.

Since I accept the profession of Faith, I have no choice in the matter. Church Doctrine allows that a licit application of the death penalty is theoretically possible, but an entity with the Legitimate Authority of Christ has determined that our applications in the US are not among them.
I keep tellin ya don’t have to explain your answer, becaue there is no right or wrong to it, in light of what the Cardinal believes.

At least Cardinal Ratzinger writes in a way we can understand-
This is a good example of why you should actually have some knowledge before speaking up. As we have demonstrated, that snippet from the Cardinal is not being applied in context to the situation. This is the Cardinal’s official position, and it is the understanding of even Jimmy Akin (whom both pnewton and I have linked to). The Cardinal was only explaining that rejection of the Church’s position does not, in of itself, rise to the level of CIC 915. That is, publicly supporting the death penalty would not warrant the witholding of Holy Communion.

However, as Pope, Benedict XVI has given us further guidance. If we apply the theological standards and criteria he spells out in the Post-synodal apostolic exhortation SACRAMENTUM CARITATIS, then US Catholics who politically support the death penalty, with full knowledge of Rome’s and the US Bishops call for its ellimination should refrain from presenting themselves for communion.

Interestingly, he reiterates a list of “non negotiable” issues for Catholics in voting which he placed in a Doctrinal Note when Prefect (and which was approved by then Pope John Paul II) as well. This is a list which, in other threads, you have openly rejected.

Which brings up another interesting aspect of conservative cultism. Positions are fixed and deference to authority is limited only to points of agreement with said positions. Note here, you cite (seemingly falsely) Cardinal Ratzinger for authoritive affirmation of your position. But in other matters, you reject his theistic authority out of hand.
 
Then I will just fail to live up to level of what one west coast Catholic considers to be a devout Catholic. Fortunately, my conscience is clear and, at least in this matter, well-formed.
So you think that disagreement with Rome and hope that the Church’s position will change is a proper, moral certainty?

I thought you considered the Catechism authoritive:
1790
A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.
1791
This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
1792
Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.
 
This statement -
This is a good example of why you should actually have some knowledge before speaking up. As we have demonstrated, that snippet from the Cardinal is not being applied in context to the situation. This is the Cardinal’s official position, and it is the understanding of even Jimmy Akin (whom both pnewton and I have linked to). The Cardinal was only explaining that rejection of the Church’s position does not, in of itself, rise to the level of CIC 915. That is, publicly supporting the death penalty would not warrant the witholding of Holy Communion.
Is in conflict with this conclusion YOU arrived at-
However, as Pope, Benedict XVI has given us further guidance. If we apply the theological standards and criteria he spells out in the Post-synodal apostolic exhortation SACRAMENTUM CARITATIS, then US Catholics who politically support the death penalty, with full knowledge of Rome’s and the US Bishops call for its ellimination should refrain from presenting themselves for communion.
So how come you don’t apply THIS conclusion when it comes to U.S. Catholics voting and publicly supporting pro abortion candidates?
 
Unfortunately I can’t someone willing to or capable of actually defending that position with more than a statement that they are of course right and don’t need to defend the claim.
Who are you describing here? I merely quoted the bible after looking for passages on mercy with a search function an a bible web site. Afer which, you offered the opinion that my interpretation was faulty, which I thought was odd because I had not posted any interpretation,merely a quotation. The choice of quotes was not even my own, but provided to me.

You then asked me to supply Church interpretation along with the quotes, stating that you don’t quote scripture without doing so. I was unsure as to what type of document you were asking for, and since you had said that you frequently supply such material, I thought it best to invite you instead.

You wish to find someone willing to defend the claim? Why? So you can determine which is the greater: justice or mercy?
 
As far as I can tell all applicatons of double effect are morally ambigious and a little troubling.
I have two comments in response. First, your above sentence strikes me as a bit nonresponsive to my prior post, so perhaps I am not communicating my thought clearly. I am not positing that the application of the PDE in the context of capital punishment is an instance of a PDE application being troubling. Rather I am saying that ***if ***one were to *apply *the principle of double effect to capital punishment cases, it doesn’t work – under the the principle itself. It seems quite obvious to me. I would speculate that it has been quite obvious to Holy Mother Church as well, since she generally does not appeal to the PDE to justify the use of capital punishment.

Second, I must disagree with you that all applications of the PDE are morally ambiguous. It strikes me as quite sound moral reasoning. I would want to caution dismissing it, considering its long history, its pedigree, and its proponents. In fact the CCC itself cites the PDE as an explanation. You seem to be of the disposition to take the catechism seriously, so I would assume you would take the PDE as something proposed by the catechism seriously.
It is generally the sort of reasoning we apply when we want to do something, are sure we are morally in the right, but need to explain a conflict under Christianity.
Again, I disagree. I would characterize it as a principle that helps us examine a proposed act more closely when we foresee the consequences of the act may be manifold.
Initially, Christians were a violently persecuted minority, and overhwhelmingly avowed pacifists, who refused to fight or serve in the military.
This is debatable, isn’t it? Obviously this isn’t the place for such a debate, but certainly there is opposing historical scholarship.
Given . . . the culture he lived it, it seems perfectly natural that St. Thomas Aquinas was able to ‘reason’ that the ‘bad’ effects of violent self defense are mitigated by the ‘good’ effects.
I must admit a profound disappointment seeing the use of scare quotes in regard to St. Thomas Aquinas’ use of reason! Are you implying that he wasn’t being reasonable, or that his reason was flawed or disingenuous? Perhaps you feel that St. Thomas was unduly influenced by his violent culture.

But what is wrong with his argument? Again, I find it to be sound moral reasoning, and the catechism cites the very same argument.
Some of the most interesting reading on this is the work of our current Pope. . . When you understand the body of his work, it becomes no surprise that he postulated (as then Cardinal Ratzinger) that in the current age, meeting the criteria for a Just War is quite likely impossible.
Can you cite that for us?
He also has directly questioned applications of “redemptive violence”.
Did he use that term? I’d be interested in a citation, if you could provide one (or a few).
With double effect, we could go on and on. Again, look at ectopic pregnancy. Accepting the concept that two deaths are better than one abortion is easier than, say, accepting serious medical risk for a non viable fetus.
I’m sorry, I don’t follow.
Again, Benedicts insights are helpful. He acknowledges that we are often confronted with complex moral dilemnas, and being human, are uncertain of God’s will. The danger is when we apply concepts like double effect or proportionate reasons with a sense of moral certainty. If we act with certainty, then we are not showing proper humility to God, whose true will we cannot know.
Did Pope Benedict actually address the PDE in his comments?
Pax!

Thanks for the discussion.
VC
 
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